May 27, 1940

NAT

William Kemble Esling

National Government

Mr. ESLING:

I think across Canada there will be the warmest commendation of the Prime Minister's statement concerning intended recruiting activities. It has been indicated that the responsibility will rest largely with the officers commanding the military districts. That is only natural, because it could hardly be expected that the minister or his officials would know the exact geographical condition in each province. In southeastern British Columbia we have perhaps the most populous communities of that province with the exception of the coast cities. We have the armouries; we have the medical officers; we have experienced officers who distinguished themselves in the last war, perfectly capable of acting as recruiting officers. My point is that these young men in the interior who are anxious to offer their services to the country have been and are now compelled to pay their transportation expenses to the coast, a distance of perhaps six hundred, seven

War Appropriation Bill

hundred or eight hundred miles. The minister can readily appreciate the discouraging effect this has had upon men who have been unemployed. I want to ask the minister if he will not take a personal interest and see to it that these young men in southeastern British Columbia are given an opportunity to enlist in some of these units which are to be recruited to strength.

Topic:   WAR APPROPRIATION BILL
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR GRANTING TO HIS MAJESTY AID FOR NATIONAL DEFENCE AND SECURITY
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LIB

Norman McLeod Rogers (Minister of National Defence)

Liberal

Mr. ROGERS:

I shall be very glad indeed

[DOT]to do so.

Topic:   WAR APPROPRIATION BILL
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR GRANTING TO HIS MAJESTY AID FOR NATIONAL DEFENCE AND SECURITY
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NAT

Gordon Knapman Fraser

National Government

Mr. FRASER (Peterborough West):

Some of the Peterborough men had to travel 135 miles to try to enlist and were turned down. Would it not be possible for these men to be given passes on the Canadian National Railways in order that they might return home?

Topic:   WAR APPROPRIATION BILL
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR GRANTING TO HIS MAJESTY AID FOR NATIONAL DEFENCE AND SECURITY
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NAT

Richard Burpee Hanson (Leader of the Official Opposition)

National Government

Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury):

The government should pay their transportation expenses.

Topic:   WAR APPROPRIATION BILL
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR GRANTING TO HIS MAJESTY AID FOR NATIONAL DEFENCE AND SECURITY
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NAT

Gordon Knapman Fraser

National Government

Mr. FRASER (Peterborough West):

Yes, the government should pay the transportation both ways. This situation has discouraged recruiting; in fact, it has really chilled it. I believe everything possible should be done for those men who are willing to give their lives for us, and I think transportation is one thing with which they should be supplied.

Topic:   WAR APPROPRIATION BILL
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR GRANTING TO HIS MAJESTY AID FOR NATIONAL DEFENCE AND SECURITY
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LIB

Norman McLeod Rogers (Minister of National Defence)

Liberal

Mr. ROGERS:

Perhaps a better way to [DOT]deal with that situation is to bring the recruiting offices closer to the men instead of taking the men to the recruiting offices.

Topic:   WAR APPROPRIATION BILL
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR GRANTING TO HIS MAJESTY AID FOR NATIONAL DEFENCE AND SECURITY
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NAT

Richard Burpee Hanson (Leader of the Official Opposition)

National Government

Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury):

I quite agree.

Topic:   WAR APPROPRIATION BILL
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR GRANTING TO HIS MAJESTY AID FOR NATIONAL DEFENCE AND SECURITY
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NAT

Gordon Knapman Fraser

National Government

Mr. FRASER (Peterborough West):

I agree also. The men from Peterborough had to go to Picton, Kingston or Toronto. Some of them, after standing in line all day, were turned down or perhaps did not even get into the recruiting office. They had to get back the best way they could, and some of them went without food for two days.

Topic:   WAR APPROPRIATION BILL
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR GRANTING TO HIS MAJESTY AID FOR NATIONAL DEFENCE AND SECURITY
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LIB

Frederick William Gershaw

Liberal

Mr. GERSHAW:

I should like to direct attention to a few factors which have not been mentioned so far. One is that on the farms, in the smaller towns and in the cities throughout the country there is a tremendous amount of scrapiron and discarded material which in some countries would be of very great use, and which might be of use in Canada as well.

Another point is that in the west, particularly in southern Alberta, conditions are eminently favourable for the training of airmen. There we have wide open spaces without trees, fences or power lines. We have stretches of

level prairie without stones or sloughs, conditions which are considered ideal for this training. Visibility is good, with very little fog and very low precipitation.

In the same district is one of the greatest petroleum producing fields in the world, with some ninety-seven producing wells which could supply the entire requirements of the commonwealth air scheme without interfering in any way with service to domestic consumers. We have a tremendous potential wealth there; the source of supply is secure. I believe that with these ideal conditions and this great petroleum supply, super airmen can be trained in that region.

At six o'clock the committee took recess.

After Recess

The committee resumed at eight o'clock.

Topic:   WAR APPROPRIATION BILL
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR GRANTING TO HIS MAJESTY AID FOR NATIONAL DEFENCE AND SECURITY
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NAT

Percy Chapman Black

National Government

Mr. BLACK (Cumberland):

Mr. Chairman, before this resolution carries, perhaps I should say a word with respect to the feeling in my constituency and throughout a large section of Nova Scotia. The citizens in that part of the country are dissatisfied with the progress which has been made up to now in the war effort. There are strong misgivings with respect to what has been done. I do not wish anything that I may say to be misconstrued as being critical of those who are carrying responsibility at the, present time, especially the Minister of Finance (Mr. Ralston) or the Minister of National Defence (Mr. Rogers), both of whom come from my home town.. The county of Cumberland has great pride in the fact that two of its citizens occupy front benches in this house and are carrying heavy responsibility at the present time. I want to offer them all the cooperation of which I am capable. That was my pledge to the electorate, and I give that assurance now.

There is a feeling among a large number of the electorate that some restraint is being placed upon the Minister of Finance and the Minister of National Defence and that, if this restraint were removed, more progress could be made in the war effort. The Minister of Finance has a wonderful record, and he enjoys a great deal of public confidence in my constituency and throughout Canada because of the achievement he has made in every sphere of his activities. He early took a high place in his profession and in public life, and he had a fine record in the last war; then he was back in public life discharging the

War Appropriation Bill

Topic:   WAR APPROPRIATION BILL
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR GRANTING TO HIS MAJESTY AID FOR NATIONAL DEFENCE AND SECURITY
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Motion agreed to, bill read the first and second times and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Vien in the chair. Section 1 agreed to. On section 2-Appropriation.


NAT

Thomas Langton Church

National Government

Mr. CHURCH:

Will any part of the $700,000,000 mentioned in section 2 be used for any purposes other than war purposes, defence and matters of that kind? Last summer the house voted $100,000,000, but proper restrictions were not imposed. I understand part of that money was used to open embassies. Will any of this money be used for any purposes other than those set out in section

2 and remaining clauses? We should earmark this sum so that we may know where it is going, and particularly it should all be for defence on land, on sea and in the air. Will any of the money be used for any civilian purposes other than those indicated in the bill?

Topic:   WAR APPROPRIATION BILL
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR GRANTING TO HIS MAJESTY AID FOR NATIONAL DEFENCE AND SECURITY
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LIB

James Layton Ralston (Minister of Finance and Receiver General)

Liberal

Mr. RALSTON:

No; the money will not be used for purposes other than those set

out in section 2. My hon. friend understands, however, that section 2 is very wide, but the intention is to use the money for purposes connected with the war.

Topic:   WAR APPROPRIATION BILL
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR GRANTING TO HIS MAJESTY AID FOR NATIONAL DEFENCE AND SECURITY
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NAT

Richard Burpee Hanson (Leader of the Official Opposition)

National Government

Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury):

The minister will recall that when on May 21 he was making his introductory statement on the resolution, I asked him, as reported at page 85 of Hansard, if he would give a break-down of the expenditures. At that time I meant past expenditures and past commitments, and also expenditures to be made under this bill. At that time the minister said:

The house may wish to know the expenditures from September 1 to March 31. For this period the total payments on defence accounts were $112,000,000. The total payments to May 15 were $136,000,000. The commitments from September 1 to March 31, in addition to pay and allowances, amounted to $267,000,000.

Will the minister give the house a breakdown of those several figures, and also a break-down of the balance of the $700,000,000, which I believe he has before him.

Topic:   WAR APPROPRIATION BILL
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR GRANTING TO HIS MAJESTY AID FOR NATIONAL DEFENCE AND SECURITY
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LIB

James Layton Ralston (Minister of Finance and Receiver General)

Liberal

Mr. RALSTON:

At the moment I have not a break-down of the commitments to which the hon. member has referred, but the breakdown of expenditures up to March 31 is as follows:

Department of National Defence.. $112,469,000

Army $67,579,000

Navy 11,455,000

Air 28,380,000

Air training plan. .. 4,219,000

Censorship 99,000

Administration .. .. 500,000

Internment 237,000

Department of Agriculture 1,419,000

Auditor General 8,000

Civil Service Commission 6,000

External Affairs 76,000

Finance; Comptroller of the

Treasury 358,000

War Supply Board 215,000

Justice 15,000

Labour; Wartime Prices and Trade

Board 55,000

Mines and Resources 18,000

National Harbours Board 69,000

National Research Council 121,000

National Revenue 2,000

Pensions and National Health.. .. 900,000

Post Office 70,000

Privy Council 30,000

Public Works 829,000

Royal Canadian Mounted Police.. 1,400,000

Secretary of State 75,000

Trade and Commerce 4,000

Transport 350,000

With regard to the $700,000,000, my hon. friend will understand that to give a breakdown of that would involve stating the allotments for the different services for the coming

War Appropriation Bill

Topic:   WAR APPROPRIATION BILL
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR GRANTING TO HIS MAJESTY AID FOR NATIONAL DEFENCE AND SECURITY
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NAT

Richard Burpee Hanson (Leader of the Official Opposition)

National Government

Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury):

Before the minister does that, I quite understand his observation that the requirements of particular services on war account will depend upon the course and progress of the war and other circumstances which cannot now be foreseen. That is wholly understandable, and I would not press the minister to be more specific on that. But, if one refers to the explanatory notes opposite pages 2 and 3 of the bill, it would seem to run the gamut of the whole public service. I suppose that is a correct statement of the position, that there is hardly a department of the government-they even have fisheries in here-which will not in a measure contribute something, I hope, to national defence.

The list of figures which the minister has been good enough to give to the committee with respect to the expenditures already made is very satisfactory, and the figures cover a large number of items. It is obviously impossible for us to keep in our minds those items at this moment, and I should like to give them some study with a view to asking some further questions on them. I confess my utter inability at the moment to ask questions intelligently on that list of expenditures. I am therefore going to suggest to the minister that he be good enough to let section 2 stand. We might go on with the rest of the bill and, perhaps to-morrow, take up section 2 and report the bill, if that meets with the minister's approval.

Topic:   WAR APPROPRIATION BILL
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR GRANTING TO HIS MAJESTY AID FOR NATIONAL DEFENCE AND SECURITY
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LIB

James Layton Ralston (Minister of Finance and Receiver General)

Liberal

Mr. RALSTON:

It is entirely satisfactory.

Topic:   WAR APPROPRIATION BILL
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR GRANTING TO HIS MAJESTY AID FOR NATIONAL DEFENCE AND SECURITY
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NAT

Percy Chapman Black

National Government

Mr. BLACK (Cumberland):

May I ask if the fund provided by this appropriation, $700,000,000, provides for moneys necessary to pay for the manufacturing programme in this country of the British government or the allies?

Topic:   WAR APPROPRIATION BILL
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR GRANTING TO HIS MAJESTY AID FOR NATIONAL DEFENCE AND SECURITY
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LIB

James Layton Ralston (Minister of Finance and Receiver General)

Liberal

Mr. RALSTON:

There is a section in the bill which permits the dominion government to act as agent for the British government and allied governments, and for the time being recoverable charges would be paid out of this appropriation. They would be recoverable; that is, they would afterwards be repaid by the other government. .

Topic:   WAR APPROPRIATION BILL
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR GRANTING TO HIS MAJESTY AID FOR NATIONAL DEFENCE AND SECURITY
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NAT

Richard Burpee Hanson (Leader of the Official Opposition)

National Government

Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury):

There is no other appropriation out of which they would be paid?

Topic:   WAR APPROPRIATION BILL
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR GRANTING TO HIS MAJESTY AID FOR NATIONAL DEFENCE AND SECURITY
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May 27, 1940