May 30, 1939

INQUIRY OP THE MINISTER OF FINANCE WITH RESPECT TO CORRESPONDENCE WITH THE BRITISH GOVERNMENT


On the orders of the day:


SC

William Hayhurst

Social Credit

Mr. WILLIAM HAYHURST (Vegreville):

Mr. Speaker, before the orders of the day are called I should like to ask a question of the Minister of Finance (Mr. Dunning) as to tariff board reference No/ 99, with respect to vegetable oils, and the correspondence set out in the votes and proceedings of May 23, 1939. Has the government put forward any further suggestions to the United Kingdom government with regard to implementing the recommendation of the tariff board, in accordance with the concluding paragraph of the letter of May 17 from Sir Thomas Inskip, Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs?

Hon. CHARLES A. DUNNING (Minister of Finance): The government has not put

forward any further suggestions to the United Kingdom government. In view of the fact that the report of the tariff board recommends a specific form of treatment of the matter, of course it would require action by this parliament. It is difficult to work out within a short space of time anything which would take the place of that suggested action, and at the same time be likely, in view of the reply of the United Kingdom, to meet with their concurrence. The matter is under consideration.

Topic:   INQUIRY OP THE MINISTER OF FINANCE WITH RESPECT TO CORRESPONDENCE WITH THE BRITISH GOVERNMENT
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BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

INQUIRY AS TO INTRODUCTION OF LEGISLATION BASED UPON REPORTS OF COMMITTEES


On the orders of the day:


CON

Hugh Alexander Stewart

Conservative (1867-1942)

Hon. H. A. STEWART (Leeds):

Mr. Speaker, does the government expect to introduce any legislation based upon reports of committees now before the house? Two of them, those of the civil service superannuation committee and the civil service committee, might involve legislation.

Topic:   BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Subtopic:   INQUIRY AS TO INTRODUCTION OF LEGISLATION BASED UPON REPORTS OF COMMITTEES
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LIB

Ernest Lapointe (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Liberal

Right Hon. ERNEST LAPOINTE (Minister of Justice):

I cannot answer the hon.

member's question at the present time, but I shall probably be able to do so later in the day.

Topic:   BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Subtopic:   INQUIRY AS TO INTRODUCTION OF LEGISLATION BASED UPON REPORTS OF COMMITTEES
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SALT FISH BOARD

PROVISION FOR INVESTIGATION OF MARKETING AND ASSISTANCE TO PRODUCERS FOR EXPORT


Hon. J. E. MICHAUD (Minister of Fisheries) moved the third reading of Bill No. 130, to provide for the constitution of a salt fish board. Motion agreed to, and bill read the third time and passed.


OFFICIAL SECRETS

CONSOLIDATION OF IMPERIAL STATUTES TO FORM PART OF LAW OF CANADA


Right Hon. ERNEST LAPOINTE (Minisister of Justice) moved the second reading of Bill No. 92, respecting official secrets. Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Sanderson in the chair. On section 1-Short title.


CCF

Abraham Albert Heaps

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. HEAPS:

I suggest that we have an explanation from the minister. He did not speak on the motion for second reading, and I assume he would have no objection to making an explanation now.

Topic:   OFFICIAL SECRETS
Subtopic:   CONSOLIDATION OF IMPERIAL STATUTES TO FORM PART OF LAW OF CANADA
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LIB

Ernest Lapointe (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Liberal

Mr. LAPOINTE (Quebec East):

This bill is merely a consolidation of two English acts dealing with the same matter. The first of those, The Official Secrets Act of 1911, applied to Canada. As a result of experiences during the war it was deemed advisable by the British parliament to amend that act considerably, and those amendments were made in 1920. The act of 1911 was amended in many particulars. The latest measure provided expressly that the provisions should not be enforced in Canada; so that if our law were permitted to remain as it is at present we should be operating under the old Official Secrets Act

Official Secrets

of 1911, which in certain respects is obsolete and does not meet present conditions. Of course under the statute of Westminster we make it entirely a Canadian statute. The 1911 act which applied to Canada is repealed and replaced by this bill which combines the two acts in force in the United Kingdom. There is no difference except that they are made applicable to Canada and Canadian conditions.

Topic:   OFFICIAL SECRETS
Subtopic:   CONSOLIDATION OF IMPERIAL STATUTES TO FORM PART OF LAW OF CANADA
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CCF

Abraham Albert Heaps

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. HEAPS:

I think every hon. member of the committee will approve of the principle embodied in this proposed legislation. In times such as the present, every nation has the right to protect itself. The bill deals with acts of espionage or attempts to damage public works in Canada. Hon. members cannot be anything but wholeheartedly in favour of such a measure; but there are aspects of the matter which naturally come to mind when we are dealing with espionage and other acts of the kind which may be committed in times such as these. The whole world is in a state of turmoil, and Canada is not entirely free from the activities of those who may some day be potential enemies. I have no doubt that the proposal now before us is aimed at certain forces which are within our borders. It may be well to understand how certain potential enemies who are in our midst happen to be here and why they are prepared to do damage to this dominion.

On more than one occasion hon. members have risen in their places to refer to certain forces in Canada which are a danger to the ' best interests of the dominion. Unfortunately these forces are quite numerous. I believe in the principle of freedom of speech and freedom of assembly. I should be one of the last to infringe upon those rights, but we have to-day in Canada certain forces of nazism and fascism which, as I said a moment ago, are a danger to the state. If the doctrines they are preaching were preached entirely in the open, I should have no objection. I think a man has a perfect right to preach any doctrine he likes, so long as he does not advocate force. But the teachings of nazism are based not upon the force of law but upon force itself. Those who preach these doctrines are attempting to spread dissension and hatred throughout Canada, with resulting danger to the peace of the country.

This type of propaganda is being spread throughout the dominion and apparently up to the present there has been no check upon it. I repeat that. I have no objection to people advocating a particular doctrine so long as they do not advocate force; but this is something entirely different. When a man

becomes a naturalized citizen of Canada he takes an oath of allegiance to the crown. The people to whom I refer are not merely exercising the right of freedom of speech. There are naturalized Germans in Canada to-day who owe allegiance not to Canada but to the country of their origin. It is a question whether they are truly Canadians or whether they owe allegiance to some foreign power. It is a question whether in a case of emergency their allegiance would not be to the country of their origin.

Some few years ago the late Mr. Jacobs, the former member for Cartier, brought to the attention of the Minister of Justice certain articles which were being disseminated by the German consul in the city of Montreal. The record will show that the Minister of Justice disapproved of such activities being carried on through a consular agent of a foreign country. In spite of the rebuke which was then administered by the Minister of Justice to the German consul, certain activities are still being carried on by German agents in this country which I believe are inimical to the best interests of the dominion. First of all I shall deal with certain activities of the German consul in Montreal, which I consider to be of a type intended to be covered by this bill.

I should like to quote from an article which appeared in the New York Post of Tuesday, December 20, 1938. It was written by Leon G. Turrou, a former member of the federal bureau of investigation of the United States, more commonly known as the G-men. Evidently this man left the service of the federal bureau of investigation and wrote a series of articles of which this was one. I believe the government of the United States subsequently intervened and publication of the articles was discontinued. The article shows how closely the espionage services in the United States are linked up with those carried on in Canada. It reads:

That night Griebl took him-

That is Turrou.

-to his summer home in the Peekskill mountains of Westchester county. Lonkowski (with several aliases, air ministry, Berlin-indicted on June 17th/38 by a federal grand jury in New York on charges on conspiring to steal military codes and confidential information concerning the armed forces, ships and aircraft of the United States) hid out there a couple of days. Then Griebl supplied him with his own car and a driver. The driver was Ulrich Haussman, a German pilot during the world war, who was in this country ostensibly as a reporter for a German aviation magazine.

Haussman drove Lonkowski to Montreal, Canada, where they enlisted the aid of the German consul.

Official Secrets

I ask the minister to note this.

A German freighter was in port at Montreal, waiting for a cargo. The German consul at Montreal had Lonkowski smuggled on board the freighter, where he was given the treatment of a hero, and safely guarded until the ship sailed.

In other words, a German consul in Canada was aiding and abetting the escape of a fugitive of justice from the United States in order that he might get back to the country of his origin, Germany. That is what I claim -that the German consuls in this country are really a part of the nazi espionage organization in Canada. When, as stated in this article written by a member of the federal bureau of investigation in the United States, a German consul aids and abets a fugitive from justice to escape from the United States and puts him on board a freighter in the port of Montreal, he is going far beyond the privileges conferred upon foreign consuls in the Dominion of Canada. Doctor Griebl escaped from the United States and went back to Germany without any formalities, yet he was head of the nazi espionage ring in the United States. I quote further from the article:

Doctor Griebl denied any direct spy dealings with the Canadian base. So I confronted him with the records of his telephone calls for the last three years. They showed a number of calls to the nazi spy chief at Montreal.

"Oh, that," said Griebl. "I'll tell you what that was. This man in Montreal is a stamp collector. I am a stamp collector, too. I called him about stamps."

Then I confronted him with proof that he had at least twice sent money-$75 once and $50 another time-to the spy in Montreal.

"That," said Griebl, "was for stamps I bought from him."

Topic:   OFFICIAL SECRETS
Subtopic:   CONSOLIDATION OF IMPERIAL STATUTES TO FORM PART OF LAW OF CANADA
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LIB

Ernest Lapointe (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Liberal

Mr. LAPOINTE (Quebec East):

Mr. Chairman, I do not wish to put any obstacle in the way of my hon. friend, but what he is reading is certainly not relevant to the bill. This is a bill to prevent spying and to inflict penalties on persons who are trying to betray official secrets. The propaganda of which my hon. friend is speaking is of an entirely different order. I did not want to stop him, but I do want to give him a little warning that he should not go too far astray.

Topic:   OFFICIAL SECRETS
Subtopic:   CONSOLIDATION OF IMPERIAL STATUTES TO FORM PART OF LAW OF CANADA
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CCF

Abraham Albert Heaps

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. HEAPS:

I do not think I am going far astray, Mr. Chairman, because I am dealing directly with espionage, which is what this bill deals with. What I am pointing out is that a former member of the federal bureau of investigation in the United States, commonly called the G-men, shows in this article, which was published under his own name in one of the large daily papers of the United States, how Montreal was linked up with espionage

plans in the United States, and since this bill deals with espionage, I think my remarks are very closely allied to its subject matter. I have no desire to go too far astray, because I can deal directly with nazi propaganda in this country on the estimates of the Minister of Justice; but in this particular instance I have quoted from the article to show that espionage is actually being carried on within, a couple of hours' ride from the city of Ottawa, and I think it is carried on pretty generally across Canada.

I think I have quoted sufficiently from the article to show how the espionage ring in the United States, which until a few months ago was headed by Doctor Griebl, who later escaped to Germany, was linked up with the German consular office in the city of Montreal. This is not the first time that we have had German consulates in this country attempting to do things of that kind. Many other instances are given in this same article. The writer shows how in Montreal they had men who were performing the tasks which this bill is designed to deal with, and personally I feel that the bill in some respects does not go far enough. If the minister has no objection I shall read just a little more, because it has a direct bearing upon the subject matter of this bill and indicates how far espionage has already crept into the life of this country. In an article dated December 22 this same gentleman says:

It was that night that Pfeiffer (Kapitan-GieutenanC Doctor Erich Pfeiffer, head of the * Bremen office of the Marine Nachriehten Stelle and m charge of all espionage on the North and South American continents-indicated on June 17, 1938, by a federal grand jury in New York on charges of conspiring to steal military codes and confidential information concerning the armed forces, ships and aircraft of the United States) and Griebl (Doctor Ignatz Griebl, leading nazi spy in North America- indicted on June 17, 1938, by a federal grand jury in New York on charges of conspiring to steal military codes and confidential information concerning the armed forces, ships and aircraft of the United States) discussed the four main spy bases set up in America and the need of setting up more. The four already in operation were m New York, Seattle, Newport News Virginia; and Montreal, Canada.

Montreal is linked up here again with the spy activities of the nazis in Canada. It goes on:

We knew the name and address of the man who was in charge of the Montreal base, which covered all of Canada and part of the New England states.

Topic:   OFFICIAL SECRETS
Subtopic:   CONSOLIDATION OF IMPERIAL STATUTES TO FORM PART OF LAW OF CANADA
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LIB

Ernest Lapointe (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Liberal

Mr. LAPOINTE (Quebec East):

What is my hon. friend reading from?

Topic:   OFFICIAL SECRETS
Subtopic:   CONSOLIDATION OF IMPERIAL STATUTES TO FORM PART OF LAW OF CANADA
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May 30, 1939