May 17, 1939

LIB

James Garfield Gardiner (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. GARDINER:

Most people think that bacon will keep forever because it is cured, but I am told by those who I presume know that bacon is one of the most perishable of products. It must be kept under the very best of conditions in order to maintain its quality, and that in itself increases the cost of storage. The cost of storing a product of that kind over a long period would be fairly high, but I am not in position to state just what it would cost per pound.

There is one other point to consider in connection with the packing houses. The packing plants have been established mostly in the centres of population, which is natural, because that is where the food is going to be consumed in great quantity. To compel all live stock to pass through a stockyard might make it difficult for packing houses operating in localities where there are no stockyards. If all live stock were compelled to go to the stockyard, the packing houses at Barrie, Kitchener and other points would probably have to go to Toronto and the stock would have to be reshipped. When stock is shipped by truck it is possible to locate packing houses at points like Barrie, where the packing house is organized on a cooperative basis.

Topic:   LIVE STOCK AND POULTRY
Subtopic:   SUPERVISION OVER STOCKYARD OPERATIONS- GRADING, INSPECTION AND MARKETING
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LIB

Ralph Melville Warren

Liberal

Mr. WARREN:

I was on my feet intending to comment on some of the remarks of the hon. member for Durham (Mr. Rickard) when I was interrupted. The remarks of the

Live Stock and Poultry

hon. member proved the point I intended to make. I contend that a man as prominent and efficient and capable as the hon. member can always get the value of his stock at his farm, or perhaps more than the value. The buyer or trucker is able to go around the back concessions and say that he bought the cattle from the hon. member for Durham, and that is a great advertisement for the buyer. But all our prominent farmers do not take that attitude. There are, however, farmers in nearly all communities who will support the cooperative shipping of live stock even at a personal loss, just to keep up a service which they know is helping their less fortunate brothers in the community, and that is something which ought to be kept in mind by eveiy farmer, the welfare of his neighbours as well as his own.

Topic:   LIVE STOCK AND POULTRY
Subtopic:   SUPERVISION OVER STOCKYARD OPERATIONS- GRADING, INSPECTION AND MARKETING
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Section agreed to. Sections 35 to 44 inclusive agreed to. On section 45-Regulations.


LIB

Thomas Reid

Liberal

Mr. REID:

Will this act apply to all

local transactions and local associations, poultry associations and others?

Another question: Paragraph (h) empowers the governor in council to prescribe measures for sanitation in or about hatcheries. But is any provision being made for the inspection of poultry premises? To me it is even more important that the source of supply of the eggs be made sanitary, because every hatchery must be kept clean if it is to have any degree of success in hatching eggs. While the hatcheries themselves are mostly sanitary, the premises in some cases from which the eggs come to be hatched are anything but sanitary, and it is felt in British Columbia that if the dominion government institute regulations for making hatcheries sanitary they are really starting at the wrong end. They should look to the poultry plants from which the eggs come for hatching.

Topic:   LIVE STOCK AND POULTRY
Subtopic:   SUPERVISION OVER STOCKYARD OPERATIONS- GRADING, INSPECTION AND MARKETING
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LIB

James Garfield Gardiner (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. GARDINER:

This part of the legislation will apply to the province upon request of the province. There are, of course, regulations in the province governing most of the matters the hon. member has mentioned. This legislation will operate, of course, in connection with the shipment of chicks and eggs, and all that kind of thing, from one province to another in very much the same way as our regulations did in the past. The member will know from discussions that have taken place in his own province that sometimes the difficulties experienced in connection with flocks occur in the area where the eggs are

produced rather than at the hatcheries themselves, and we have had perhaps the greatest difficulty in persuading people in the province other than the one in which the eggs are produced that they should accept chicks from hatcheries irrespective of how the eggs are gathered for the hatchery. We are attempting to carry out our regulations and inspection in that regard more strictly perhaps than the people who are producing the flocks would like.

Topic:   LIVE STOCK AND POULTRY
Subtopic:   SUPERVISION OVER STOCKYARD OPERATIONS- GRADING, INSPECTION AND MARKETING
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CON

Mark Cecil Senn

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. SENN:

All through this part of the bill there are two terms used, "dominion poultry improvement program" and "dominion hatchery approval policy." The expression "dominion poultry improvement program" is defined, but the other is not. Is it intended to describe the rules and regulations laid down in this part, or what is the dominion hatchery approval policy?

Topic:   LIVE STOCK AND POULTRY
Subtopic:   SUPERVISION OVER STOCKYARD OPERATIONS- GRADING, INSPECTION AND MARKETING
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LIB

James Garfield Gardiner (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. GARDINER:

It is part of the poultry improvement program.

Topic:   LIVE STOCK AND POULTRY
Subtopic:   SUPERVISION OVER STOCKYARD OPERATIONS- GRADING, INSPECTION AND MARKETING
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Section agreed to. Sections 46 to 52 inclusive agreed to. On section 53-Chicks not to be shipped interprovincially except under the approval policy.


LIB

Thomas Reid

Liberal

Mr. REID:

As is known to some of us, the word "flock" is used in different senses in the prairie provinces and in British Columbia. British Columbia is a province highly specializing in poultry, and our poultry men breed only from two-year-old birds. In the prairie provinces the word "flock" covers every bird on the farm-chicks, turkeys and everything else-and it is perhaps desirable that the word be used so far as the prairie provinces are concerned. When you sell chicks from British Columbia to the prairie provinces, you find that Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba have stringent regulations regarding the importation of chicks, which prescribe that they must come from flocks that have been tested for pullorum disease. Poultry men in British Columbia breed only from two-year-old birds, and this necessitates our poultry men having all their chicks tested for pullorum. His plant is divided into two parts, with the laying stock on one side and the breeding stock on the other. If he has to test the laying stock it means not only an added expense but a loss of revenue, because during the time the birds are being tested, egg production ceases. The minister is I think fairly well acquainted with the representations that have been made from British Columbia, but I would point out that this section, in line 32, "requires pullorum tests as stringent as those of the province into which such chicks

Live Stock and Poultry

are to be shipped." I would ask the minister to give consideration, in view of what I have said, to substituting the words "breeding stock" for the word "flocks" in line 28. It then will read:

. . . such chicks were produced in approved hatcheries using only eggs from breeding stock approved under a provincial flock approval policy.

Topic:   LIVE STOCK AND POULTRY
Subtopic:   SUPERVISION OVER STOCKYARD OPERATIONS- GRADING, INSPECTION AND MARKETING
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LIB

James Garfield Gardiner (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. GARDINER:

I do not believe that

the word "flocks" would require to be changed in order to accomplish what is suggested. If the department were prepared to accept as the flock the laying section which is to be used for the purpose of supplying eggs to hatcheries, that could be done under this section as it is. The policy of the department has been to this effect: there are provinces which will not accept chicks from hatcheries which accept eggs from a producer who keeps two different flocks on the same lot, so to speak, where those lots are small, and the contention is that a person going back and forth out of the pens of one group into another carries the possibility of infection from the one group of chickens or hens to the other. In other words, they claim that there is no possibility of keeping the one flock clean if the two flocks are being operated by the one individual in a small area. The word "flock" being in there would prevent that policy being changed. It is not the desire of the department at the present to change the policy, largely because of the fact that provinces which are purchasing these chicks will not accept them on any other basis; they simply say, "We will not take the chicks from a province unless this particular regulation is enforced."

Topic:   LIVE STOCK AND POULTRY
Subtopic:   SUPERVISION OVER STOCKYARD OPERATIONS- GRADING, INSPECTION AND MARKETING
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LIB

Thomas Reid

Liberal

Mr. REID:

I think some of the provinces would, but it is the dominion that lays down the regulations as to what the word "flock" means, and the provinces, of course, having stringent regulations in connection with pullorum, use the term "flock" as laid down by the dominion regulations. If the minister cannot see fit to change the provision I think he should consider amending the regulations, because it is my information that some of the prairie provinces would accept chicks from hatcheries if the laying pens of the stock from which the eggs came had been tested for pullorum disease. But so long as the dominion defines "flock" it enables the prairie provinces and other provinces to hide behind-if I should use that term-the definition in the dominion regulations.

Topic:   LIVE STOCK AND POULTRY
Subtopic:   SUPERVISION OVER STOCKYARD OPERATIONS- GRADING, INSPECTION AND MARKETING
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LIB

James Garfield Gardiner (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. GARDINER:

I believe Alberta is

prepared to accept chicks from British Columbia on the basis suggested; and when a

province indicates that it is prepared to accept them, the dominion regulations permit of their being accepted. The only places where the dominion regulations prevent them from being accepted is in the provinces which object. Alberta does not object, and the chicks can go there even if the flocks are as indicated. But it is just possible that, because they are selling into all three provinces, and two of the provinces refuse to accept them, they are not in a position to handle their flocks in such a way as to satisfy even Alberta.

Topic:   LIVE STOCK AND POULTRY
Subtopic:   SUPERVISION OVER STOCKYARD OPERATIONS- GRADING, INSPECTION AND MARKETING
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LIB-PRO

William Gilbert Weir

Liberal Progressive

Mr. WEIR:

I move:

That section 53, paragraph (a) be amended by deleting all the words after the word "shipped" in line 32.

The words deleted will be:

or under the dominion record of performance or hatchery approval policy.

The paragraph will then stop after the word "shipped." This is for purposes of clarification. The sense of the provision is contained in the earlier part of the section, so that it does not change in any way the sense of the section; it merely clears up something which might otherwise be misunderstood.

Topic:   LIVE STOCK AND POULTRY
Subtopic:   SUPERVISION OVER STOCKYARD OPERATIONS- GRADING, INSPECTION AND MARKETING
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Amendment agreed to. Section as amended agreed to. On section 54-Offences and penalties.


CON

Mark Cecil Senn

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. SENN:

The hon. member for Renfrew North spoke about cooperation. There are certain places in Ontario where two or three farmers own an incubator of, it may be, over 1,000 eggs capacity: each of them will put a number of eggs into that incubator and they are hatched. Do they come under the provisions of this bill? The produce is not for sale, it is for use by the three or four farmers who own this particular incubator. It will be too bad if they should violate any of the provisions of this measure, and perhaps need a permit and all the rest of it. Really they are a little partnership of their own.

Topic:   LIVE STOCK AND POULTRY
Subtopic:   SUPERVISION OVER STOCKYARD OPERATIONS- GRADING, INSPECTION AND MARKETING
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LIB

James Garfield Gardiner (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. GARDINER:

The law is still optional in Ontario, because Ontario has not proclaimed this legislation, and it cannot be made compulsory unless they do. It is optional whether they apply for a permit, and I suppose that such persons would not apply for a permit.

Topic:   LIVE STOCK AND POULTRY
Subtopic:   SUPERVISION OVER STOCKYARD OPERATIONS- GRADING, INSPECTION AND MARKETING
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CON

Mark Cecil Senn

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. SENN:

But does the minister think it is necessary in a case of that kind, where these chicks do not enter into commercial production? They are not sold to anybody; there is no buyer who has to be protected.

Topic:   LIVE STOCK AND POULTRY
Subtopic:   SUPERVISION OVER STOCKYARD OPERATIONS- GRADING, INSPECTION AND MARKETING
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LIB-PRO

William Gilbert Weir

Liberal Progressive

Mr. WEIR:

They are raising their own.

Live Stock and Poultry

Topic:   LIVE STOCK AND POULTRY
Subtopic:   SUPERVISION OVER STOCKYARD OPERATIONS- GRADING, INSPECTION AND MARKETING
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CON

Mark Cecil Senn

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. SENN:

Yes, three or four farmers,

for their own convenience.

Topic:   LIVE STOCK AND POULTRY
Subtopic:   SUPERVISION OVER STOCKYARD OPERATIONS- GRADING, INSPECTION AND MARKETING
Permalink
LIB-PRO

William Gilbert Weir

Liberal Progressive

Mr. WEIR:

They are hatching for themselves?

Topic:   LIVE STOCK AND POULTRY
Subtopic:   SUPERVISION OVER STOCKYARD OPERATIONS- GRADING, INSPECTION AND MARKETING
Permalink

May 17, 1939