March 20, 1939

CON

Henry Herbert Stevens

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. STEVENS:

If the minister will permit a further suggestion, we have, as a regular process in government circles of dealing with just this sort of thing, the salvage department. The minister will not take amiss what I am going to say. Let us just take his illustration. Here is an irrigation project finished up; there are a couple of tractors, maybe a truck or two, power scrapers and so on. Many of these projects run into large sums of money, $70,000, $80,000, $100,000 or more; they are quite substantial works. That machinery is valuable: If the matter were

wide open, there would be a temptation to let some of that machinery go locally at sacrifice prices. We have the salvage branch, and the governor in council has power under the original act to make regulations. It keeps the wrhole thing working in an orderly way in harmony with good practice in government circles. If that course is departed from, whether by the present minister or future ministers, they are going to be clothed with an authority which I do not think exists in any other .department, or if it does it should not. It is bad legislation, and I say that not in any criticism of the present minister. I urge him to accept the suggestion I made.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO EXTEND PERIOD OP OPERATION OF ACT, ETC.
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LIB

James Garfield Gardiner (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. GARDINER:

The proposal which

I have I think conforms fairly well with the practice referred to, which was discussed here generally in connection with another bill the other night. It would make section 12 read this way:

(1) The minister may, for the purposes of this act, purchase or rent whatever machinery or equipment may be required in connection with the development construction or operation of any project or scheme; provided that the purchase of any single unit of machinery or equipment of a value greater than five thousand dollars shall require the approval of the governor in council.

(2) Notwithstanding the provisions of any other act or law, the minister may sell any single unit of such machinery or equipment upon such terms as he may deem advisable, and the proceeds thereof shall be paid to the receiver general; provided that the sale of any such unit Bhall, if its initial cost exceeded five hundred dollars, require the approval of the governor in council.

That is, if the initial cost exceeded $500 he has to have an order in council. One can quite understand that a great deal of equipment purchased for less than $500 is used for maybe a few months in the summer, and if it is worn out, the sale price would be very small.

Prairie Farm Rehabilitation

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO EXTEND PERIOD OP OPERATION OF ACT, ETC.
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CON

Henry Herbert Stevens

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. STEVENS:

Would the minister not

agree that he is definitely departing from one of the fixed rules of government, that all purchases over $5,000 must be made after public tender? He is suggesting that purchases up to $5,000 may be made without even reference to council.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO EXTEND PERIOD OP OPERATION OF ACT, ETC.
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LIB

James Garfield Gardiner (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. GARDINER:

That is the regular

procedure.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO EXTEND PERIOD OP OPERATION OF ACT, ETC.
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CON

Henry Herbert Stevens

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. STEVENS:

I think the minister is

letting himself in for a great deal of trouble in taking this position. I have no desire to hold this legislation up and I shall not say more, but it is not because I do not feel the grave importance of this legislation.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO EXTEND PERIOD OP OPERATION OF ACT, ETC.
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?

George Halsey Perley

Mr. PERLEY:

I should very much like

to see the minister accept the suggestion of the hon. member for Kootenay East (Mr. Stevens). I do not agree that the cost of moving machinery would be so great. Nowadays, with modern facilities, trucks and so forth, I have seen them moving road building machinery where they just hitch it behind a tractor or load it on trucks; they move threshing machines around in that way. So I think the argument that the cost of moving the machinery might be so great that it would be better to sell it at a sacrifice is not a good argument.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO EXTEND PERIOD OP OPERATION OF ACT, ETC.
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LIB

James Garfield Gardiner (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. GARDINER:

I have not any particular objection, but I might point out what it really means. I am now asking this committee, which is composed of the elected representatives of the people, for permission to do this particular thing, sell certain odds and ends that are around, as a departmental matter. The practice in all departments of government is and always has been under every government that items costing up to $5,000 do not go to council, they are dealt with by the minister. This is following the same practice. To follow the suggestion of the hon. member would simply mean that instead of getting permission of this committee of the house, I go to this advisory committee that I picked myself which meets in Regina, and ask them to give me permission to sell this equipment. Knowing they are all business men representing institutions like the Canadian Pacific Railway Company, the mortgage companies and the banks, men who are used to this kind of thing, I know I shall only have to make the suggestion to get the permission. But instead of asking them for that permission I ask this house, and I think it is much better that I should get permission from the elected representatives of the people than from that group of men whom I really appointed.

71492-132J

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO EXTEND PERIOD OP OPERATION OF ACT, ETC.
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CON

Henry Herbert Stevens

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. STEVENS:

The minister is not asking this house for permission to do any individual thing; he is asking for a free hand.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO EXTEND PERIOD OP OPERATION OF ACT, ETC.
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LIB

James Garfield Gardiner (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. GARDINER:

That is exactly what I have to do with the committee. "The minister may, subject to section 4 of this act," which means I get the permission of the committee to do certain things, "and with the approval of the governor in council, enter into agreements with any of the provinces of Manitoba, Saskatchewan or Alberta," Then you apply that also to paragraphs 11 and 12. In order to do that, all that is required is that I go to this meeting in Regina which will probably be held in April and say, "Now these things are lying round at the end of each job; they have to be disposed of; I would like the advice of the committee to do it in this way," and I have no doubt I would get advice from them to proceed and do it in that businesslike way. But I am asking the house to put that in the form of a resolution giving me that permission rather than asking the committee.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO EXTEND PERIOD OP OPERATION OF ACT, ETC.
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?

George Halsey Perley

Mr. PERLEY:

How many members of the original committee that was set up are now on the committee?

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO EXTEND PERIOD OP OPERATION OF ACT, ETC.
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LIB

James Garfield Gardiner (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. GARDINER:

I do not know that I have the list, but I think I can name them. The Canadian Pacific Railway is represented; the Canadian National Railways; The Banking Association of Canada-

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO EXTEND PERIOD OP OPERATION OF ACT, ETC.
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?

George Halsey Perley

Mr. PERLEY:

By the same men?

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO EXTEND PERIOD OP OPERATION OF ACT, ETC.
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LIB

James Garfield Gardiner (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. GARDINER:

By whatever men they appointed; they appointed them themselves, and they are pretty much the same men unless the men have been moved. Doctor E. S. Archibald is chairman; that is the same chairman as we had before. John Vallance is an appointee put on since this government came into office, but he fills a position that required representation, the water development branch. W. L. Jacobson is the secretary; he was the secretary before this government came in. O. S. Longman is the representative of Alberta; he was the representative before. J. Ellis is the representative of Manitoba; he was the representative before. F. H. Auld is the representative of Saskatchewan; he was the representative before. R. W. Hanan of La Fleche, Saskatchewan, is the representative of the provincial municipal association; I do not think he was on before; he was appointed by the provincial municipal association. Mr. Paul Farnals of Halkirk, Alberta, was appointed by the provincial municipal association. Mr. James Arthur Ross of Melita, Manitoba, was appointed by the Manitoba provincial municipal association. Mr. W. G.

Prairie Farm Rehabilitation

Yule, of Regina, Saskatchewan, was appointed by the Canadian Bankers' Association. Mr. J. D. Guild, of Winnipeg, Manitoba, was appointed by the Canadian National Railways, and I -believe was previously a representative. Mr. A. Newman, of Calgary, Alberta, was appointed by the Canadian Pacific Railway Company, and he had been a representative of that company. Mr. P. J. Freer of Winnipeg, Manitoba, represents the Mortgage Loans Association, and Mr. A. E. Joslyn of Winnipeg, Manitoba, represents the Hudson's Bay Company. They are practically the same men.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO EXTEND PERIOD OP OPERATION OF ACT, ETC.
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CCF

Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. DOUGLAS (Weyburn):

Section 4 of the amendment of 1937 provides that the advisory committees shall consider and advise the minister as to the best methods to be adopted for the rehabilitation of the drought and drifting areas. In the same statute amending -the original act section 3 was changed-

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO EXTEND PERIOD OP OPERATION OF ACT, ETC.
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CON

Henry Herbert Stevens

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. STEVENS:

Repealed.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO EXTEND PERIOD OP OPERATION OF ACT, ETC.
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CCF

Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. DOUGLAS (Weyburn):

Yes. A new section comprising two parts was substituted. It was provided in the first place that the governor in council might establish one or more advisory committees to be known as prairie farm rehabilitation committees, the members of which were to hold office during pleasure; and in the second place it was provided that one of the members should be appointed chairman by the minister. From then on the plural is used. The minister has read the names of only one committee. Does he propose setting up other committees?

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO EXTEND PERIOD OP OPERATION OF ACT, ETC.
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LIB

James Garfield Gardiner (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. GARDINER:

There are three committees. There is one advisory committee to be known as the water development committee, which deals with water development as distinct from land utilization. That is composed of the following: Mr. J. Vallance, of Regina, Saskatchewan, who is at the head of the water development; Mr. W. L. Jacobson, of Regina, Saskatchewan, secretary of the whole set-up; Mr. B. Russell, of Regina, Saskatchewan, consulting engineer; Mr. L. C. Charlesworth, of Edmonton, Alberta; Mr. C. J. McGavin, of Regina, Saskatchewan, and Mr. B. B. Hogarth of Winnipeg, Manitoba.

Then we come to the advisory committee of departmental officials located at Ottawa, comprising the deputy minister of agriculture; Doctor E. S. Archibald, who is head of the experimental farms; and Mr. R. A. Olmsted, legal adviser of the department.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO EXTEND PERIOD OP OPERATION OF ACT, ETC.
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CCF

Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. DOUGLAS (Weyburn):

Under section 12 in the amending section, would it be wise to specify that the machinery purchased ought to be obtained by tender and the machinery sold disposed of at auction? Perhaps rve

should insert the words " .by tender " after the word " purchase," and -the words " by auction " after the word " sell." This bill may involve the purchasing of large amounts of machinery, and after some of these projects are completed a considerable amount of second-hand equipment will probably be sold.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO EXTEND PERIOD OP OPERATION OF ACT, ETC.
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LIB

James Garfield Gardiner (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. GARDINER:

The proposed amendment will accomplish what the hon. member has in mind.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO EXTEND PERIOD OP OPERATION OF ACT, ETC.
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CCF

Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. DOUGLAS (Weyburn):

I hope it will.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO EXTEND PERIOD OP OPERATION OF ACT, ETC.
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March 20, 1939