March 10, 1939

LIB

Walter Edward Foster (Speaker of the Senate)

Liberal

Mr. SPEAKER:

Standing order 31 states:

(1) Leave to make a motion for the adjournment of the house (when made for the purpose of discussing a definite matter of urgent public importance) must be asked after the ordinary daily routine of business (standing order 15) has been concluded and before notices of motion or orders of the day are entered upon.

(2) The member desiring to make such a motion rises in his place, asks leave to move the adjournment of the house for the purpose of discussing a definite matter of urgent public importance, and states the matter.

(3) He then hands a written statement of the matter proposed to be discussed to the Speaker, who, if he thinks it in order and of urgent public importance, reads it out and asks whether fV*p mpmhftr has the leave of the house.

I have just read the motion and in my opinion the matter to which it refers is not one of urgent public importance.

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CCF

Charles Grant MacNeil

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. MacNEIL:

With all deference, I object, and I ask hon. members supporting me to rise. I have the privilege under the rules of the house to appeal.

And more than five members having risen:

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?

Some hon. MEMBERS:

Sit down.

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LIB

Ernest Lapointe (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Liberal

Mr. LAPOINTE (Quebec East):

I ask my hon. friend to read the rules and consider carefully whether there is an appeal from such a decision of the Speaker. This is not an ordinary ruling. It is a duty which devolves upon the Speaker to say whether in his opinion

__not in any other opinion-the matter sought

to be discussed is a matter of urgent public importance. I do not think there is any appeal to the house from the decision of the Speaker as to whether this is or is not a matter of urgent public importance.

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CCF

Angus MacInnis

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. MacINNIS:

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker-

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LIB

Walter Edward Foster (Speaker of the Senate)

Liberal

Mr. SPEAKER:

Government notices of

motions.

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CCF

Angus MacInnis

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. MacINNIS:

Mr. Speaker- Mr. SPEAKER: Orders of the day.

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CCF

Charles Grant MacNeil

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. MacNEIL:

The rule reads:

If objection is taken, the Speaker requests those members who support the motion to rise in their places and if more than twenty members rise accordingly, the Speaker calls upon the member who has asked for leave.

(4) If less than twenty, but not less than five, members rise in their places, the question whether the member has leave to move the adjournment of the house shall be put forthwith, without debate, and determined, if necessary, by a division.

I have stated my objection, and more than five members rose in their places.

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LIB

Walter Edward Foster (Speaker of the Senate)

Liberal

Mr. SPEAKER:

That may be the procedure if objection is taken when I put the

National Defence-Ex-Service Men

motion. The Speaker is here to decide points of order, and the question referred to the house is not a point of order.

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CCF

Angus MacInnis

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. MacINNIS:

I protest against this ruling. It is absolutely not in accord with the rules by which this house proceeds.

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LIB

Walter Edward Foster (Speaker of the Senate)

Liberal

Mr. SPEAKER:

I have rendered my decision and it cannot be questioned.

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CCF

Angus MacInnis

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. MacINNIS:

But it is questioned. We appeal against your decision.

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CCF

Charles Grant MacNeil

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. MacNEIL:

With all deference I challenge your ruling.

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CCF

Angus MacInnis

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. MacINNIS:

This has never been done in the house before.

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CON

Robert James Manion (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MANION:

Mr. Speaker, I should like to speak to this matter for a moment. I am not rising to support the hon. member (Mr. MacNeil), but with all due respect I think the hon. members to my left here are right. If five members rise, the Speaker then puts the question to the house. I may be wrong, but it seems to me that the rule is clear. It states:

He-

That is the member-

-then hands a written statement of the matter proposed to be discussed to the Speaker, who, if he thinks it in order and of urgent public importance, reads it out and asks whether the member has the leave of the house. If objection is taken, the Speaker requests those members w'ho support the motion

Objection has been taken by the minister and by the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King).

-to rise in their places and if more than twenty members rise accordingly, the Speaker calls upon the member who has asked for leave.

I take it that twenty did not rise, but five did. The next paragraph says:

If less than twenty, but not less than five, members rise in their places, the question whether the member has leave to move the adjournment of the house shall be put forthwith, without debate, and determined, if necessary, by a division.

Under my reading of the rule, the hon. members are right in their request.

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LIB

Ernest Lapointe (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Liberal

Mr. LAPOINTE (Quebec East):

On this new point of order, Mr. Speaker, may I say this. What my hon. friend has read applies to what takes place after the Speaker has stated that he thinks the motion is in order. Paragraph 3 of standing order 31 covers the action taken after the Speaker has accepted the motion, after he has expressed the opinion that it is in order. The rule reads:

He then hands a written statement of the matter proposed to be discussed to the Speaker, rvho, if he thinks it in order and of urgent

public importance, reads it out and asks whether the member has the leave of the house. If objection is taken-

And so on. All that my hon. friend has read happens after the Speaker has stated that he thinks the motion for adjournment is in order. When he thinks it is not in order, that aspect of the matter ends then and there. Now, as to an appeal from the ruling, standing order 12 reads:

Mr. Speaker shall preserve order and decorum, and shall decide questions of order, subject to an appeal to the house without debate.

This is not a question of order which has been raised, and there is no appeal from the decision of the Speaker. Under standing order 31 Mr. Speaker is simply asked to state whether he thinks the matter should be submitted to the house. There is no appeal. There is no point of order there.

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CCF

Angus MacInnis

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. MacINNIS:

There is.

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LIB

Ernest Lapointe (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Liberal

Mr. LAPOINTE (Quebec East):

He gives an opinion; he states whether the matter should be submitted to the house.

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CCF

Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. DOUGLAS (Weyburn):

On the point of order, standing order 31, paragraph 3 reads:

He then hands a written statement of the matter proposed to be discussed to the Speaker, wno. if he thinks it in order and of urgent public importance, reads it out-

I would point out that your honour has read it out, and by doing that recognizes it as being a matter of urgent public importance.

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LIB

Ernest Lapointe (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Liberal

Mr. LAPOINTE (Quebec East):

The

Speaker did not read it.

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March 10, 1939