May 31, 1938

LIB

Daniel (Dan) McIvor

Liberal

Mr. McIVOR:

Mr. Chairman, I am not

a constitutional lawyer or a high financier, but this resolution looks like action to me. When I read about the municipalities meeting in Ottawa, in Toronto and other places, and sending their requests to the dominion government for relief, I think that this resolution is the answer to them. How are we going to cure unemployment if we do not provide productive work? As has been shown by conventions in municipalities, these municipalities have been in difficult times. If this is the father of assemblies in Canada, then certainly we should take the lead.

When I rose to speak I had intended asking the minister a question. In the event of the passage of the legislation taking over full control of the Bank of Canada could we borrow the money from that bank? In other words, could we take it out of one pocket, put it into another, and gain two per cent?

Topic:   MUNICIPAL IMPROVEMENTS
Subtopic:   AUTHORIZATION OF LOANS TO ASSIST MUNICIPALITIES IN MAKING SELF-LIQUIDATING IMPROVEMENTS
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CON

Richard Bedford Bennett (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BENNETT:

You do not have to put it back; you just take it.

Topic:   MUNICIPAL IMPROVEMENTS
Subtopic:   AUTHORIZATION OF LOANS TO ASSIST MUNICIPALITIES IN MAKING SELF-LIQUIDATING IMPROVEMENTS
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CCF

Abraham Albert Heaps

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. HEAPS:

All hon. members appreciate the sentiments expressed by the hon. member for St. Lawrence-St. George (Mr. Cahan). That was the kind of talk one would expect from the hon. member, and I believe his viewpoint is appreciated. However I am always tempted to remark that I never heard him speak in that particular tone between the years 1930 and 1935, despite the fact that during that period vast sums of money were spent, probably not on projects exactly the same as those contemplated in the resolution, but on measures of a somewhat similar nature designed for the relief of unemployment.

In a sense I have been gratified by the statement of the Minister of Finance (Mr. Dunning), but my gratification was somewhat tempered when I heard him give the details of the proposed scheme. I am pleased indeed to learn the government contemplates spending $30,000,000. But if the scheme is hedged in the manner indicated by the minister I do not think the whole of the $30,000,000 will be spent by the government.

Topic:   MUNICIPAL IMPROVEMENTS
Subtopic:   AUTHORIZATION OF LOANS TO ASSIST MUNICIPALITIES IN MAKING SELF-LIQUIDATING IMPROVEMENTS
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LIB

Charles Avery Dunning (Minister of Finance and Receiver General)

Liberal

Mr. DUNNING:

By the requests which are in now, I do not think there is much doubt about it.

Topic:   MUNICIPAL IMPROVEMENTS
Subtopic:   AUTHORIZATION OF LOANS TO ASSIST MUNICIPALITIES IN MAKING SELF-LIQUIDATING IMPROVEMENTS
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CCF

Abraham Albert Heaps

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. HEAPS:

I am not going by requests which may come in; I base my statement on the remarks of the minister. He said that the money will be handed out on a basis of population, and if that is so we shall be faced with a difficult situation. That would apply particularly in the large industrial centres of western Canada where there is a great deal of unemployment. Let us take as an example the city of Winnipeg. Its population of approximately 200,000 is about one-fiftieth that of the population of Canada, and according to the statement of the minister, Winnipeg will be entitled to receive one-fiftieth of the $30,000,000. If I am wrong I hope he will correct me.

Topic:   MUNICIPAL IMPROVEMENTS
Subtopic:   AUTHORIZATION OF LOANS TO ASSIST MUNICIPALITIES IN MAKING SELF-LIQUIDATING IMPROVEMENTS
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LIB

Charles Avery Dunning (Minister of Finance and Receiver General)

Liberal

Mr. DUNNING:

The figures used by the right hon. the leader of the opposition will turn out to be approximately correct. If you allow approximately $3 per head of population you will not be far out.

Topic:   MUNICIPAL IMPROVEMENTS
Subtopic:   AUTHORIZATION OF LOANS TO ASSIST MUNICIPALITIES IN MAKING SELF-LIQUIDATING IMPROVEMENTS
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CCF

Abraham Albert Heaps

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. HEAPS:

As Winnipeg has one-fiftieth of the population of Canada it would be entitled to one-fiftieth of the $30,000,000, or $600,000. That works out at $3 per head of population.

Topic:   MUNICIPAL IMPROVEMENTS
Subtopic:   AUTHORIZATION OF LOANS TO ASSIST MUNICIPALITIES IN MAKING SELF-LIQUIDATING IMPROVEMENTS
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LIB

Charles Avery Dunning (Minister of Finance and Receiver General)

Liberal

Mr. DUNNING:

I hope the hon. member did not understand me as putting forward this measure as a complete cure for all the unemployment that exists. This one measure deals

Municipal Improvements

with a particular class of productive enterprise which we believe will contribute towards that end. But there are like measures to come.

Topic:   MUNICIPAL IMPROVEMENTS
Subtopic:   AUTHORIZATION OF LOANS TO ASSIST MUNICIPALITIES IN MAKING SELF-LIQUIDATING IMPROVEMENTS
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CCF

Abraham Albert Heaps

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. HEAPS:

I quite realize what the

minister has said; I understand him thoroughly. But on that basis the money will not be spent in the places where it is most needed. For instance if there is a severe unemployment problem in Winnipg, Vancouver or Edmonton, a problem much greater than that in other large industrial centres, those cities cannot get more than the amount to which they are entitled, despite the fact that some other city does not need assistance. For instance if Toronto or any of the other large industrial centres does not make a request for funds, still the municipalities needing assistance will be able to receive only their proportionate amount, according to population. For the city of Winnipeg under present circumstances $600,000 is a very small amount indeed, even to begin to take care of the unemployment problem. That is why I have a certain feeling of disappointment in the minister's statement this afternoon. I had expected he would outline a more comprehensive scheme. I am pleased to see that moneys are to be used for self-liquidating projects, but outside of housing I doubt if there are any schemes which could be styled as self-liquidating.

Topic:   MUNICIPAL IMPROVEMENTS
Subtopic:   AUTHORIZATION OF LOANS TO ASSIST MUNICIPALITIES IN MAKING SELF-LIQUIDATING IMPROVEMENTS
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LIB

Charles Avery Dunning (Minister of Finance and Receiver General)

Liberal

Mr. DUNNING:

This is not intended to

touch housing at all.

Topic:   MUNICIPAL IMPROVEMENTS
Subtopic:   AUTHORIZATION OF LOANS TO ASSIST MUNICIPALITIES IN MAKING SELF-LIQUIDATING IMPROVEMENTS
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CCF

Abraham Albert Heaps

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. HEAPS:

It is moneys distinct and

apart from housing?

Topic:   MUNICIPAL IMPROVEMENTS
Subtopic:   AUTHORIZATION OF LOANS TO ASSIST MUNICIPALITIES IN MAKING SELF-LIQUIDATING IMPROVEMENTS
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LIB

Charles Avery Dunning (Minister of Finance and Receiver General)

Liberal

Mr. DUNNING:

Yes, absolutely.

Topic:   MUNICIPAL IMPROVEMENTS
Subtopic:   AUTHORIZATION OF LOANS TO ASSIST MUNICIPALITIES IN MAKING SELF-LIQUIDATING IMPROVEMENTS
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CCF

Abraham Albert Heaps

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. HEAPS:

And do I understand another bill will come down to deal with the housing problem?

Topic:   MUNICIPAL IMPROVEMENTS
Subtopic:   AUTHORIZATION OF LOANS TO ASSIST MUNICIPALITIES IN MAKING SELF-LIQUIDATING IMPROVEMENTS
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LIB

Charles Avery Dunning (Minister of Finance and Receiver General)

Liberal

Mr. DUNNING:

Absolutely; the Minister of Labour has so stated.

Topic:   MUNICIPAL IMPROVEMENTS
Subtopic:   AUTHORIZATION OF LOANS TO ASSIST MUNICIPALITIES IN MAKING SELF-LIQUIDATING IMPROVEMENTS
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CCF

Abraham Albert Heaps

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. HEAPS:

Then if that measure is not now before the committee, I do not wish bo deal with it. If it is intended in the present instance to deal with problems other than housing, of course a great deal of my criticism is not valid on this particular occasion, and I will admit it right away.

Topic:   MUNICIPAL IMPROVEMENTS
Subtopic:   AUTHORIZATION OF LOANS TO ASSIST MUNICIPALITIES IN MAKING SELF-LIQUIDATING IMPROVEMENTS
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LIB-PRO

Joseph Thorarinn Thorson

Liberal Progressive

Mr. THORSON:

The question raised by the hon. member for St. Lawrence-St. George (Mr. Cahan) is one which the people of Canada must face. The sooner they do so the better for their welfare. It follows I think automatically from one of the recent decisions of the judicial committee of the privy council that this dominion parliament has no right- to spend money in respect of

any object which comes within the legislative jurisdiction of the provinces. It would seem that this consequence follows directly from the decision of the judicial committee of the privy council in the unemployment insurance reference. If that is so, the right of this parliament to spend any money for any object that falls within the legislative jurisdiction of the provinces is challenged; that challenge places before the people of Canada the necessity of deciding what objects of legislation are to be deemed national in their scope and what objects are truly of a provincial nature.

Topic:   MUNICIPAL IMPROVEMENTS
Subtopic:   AUTHORIZATION OF LOANS TO ASSIST MUNICIPALITIES IN MAKING SELF-LIQUIDATING IMPROVEMENTS
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CON

Charles Hazlitt Cahan

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. CAHAN:

Hear, hear.

Topic:   MUNICIPAL IMPROVEMENTS
Subtopic:   AUTHORIZATION OF LOANS TO ASSIST MUNICIPALITIES IN MAKING SELF-LIQUIDATING IMPROVEMENTS
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LIB-PRO

Joseph Thorarinn Thorson

Liberal Progressive

Mr. THORSON:

And the sooner we face that question the better for the people of Canada.

There are a great many problems that were originally provincial in their scope and were within provincial jurisdiction, and are still regarded as such by the courts, although the nature of the problem has changed. Many of these problems that were originally provincial in their nature have now become national in their scope and importance; that brings squarely before us the necessity of recasting our constitution so that this parliament may be vested with the necessary jurisdiction to deal adequately with national problems.

Topic:   MUNICIPAL IMPROVEMENTS
Subtopic:   AUTHORIZATION OF LOANS TO ASSIST MUNICIPALITIES IN MAKING SELF-LIQUIDATING IMPROVEMENTS
Permalink
CON

Richard Bedford Bennett (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BENNETT:

If that is established under the language of Lord Haldane, -we might have jurisdiction.

Topic:   MUNICIPAL IMPROVEMENTS
Subtopic:   AUTHORIZATION OF LOANS TO ASSIST MUNICIPALITIES IN MAKING SELF-LIQUIDATING IMPROVEMENTS
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LIB-PRO

Joseph Thorarinn Thorson

Liberal Progressive

Mr. THORSON:

It would be difficult to follow all the by-ways and by-paths through which Lord Haldane frequently travelled in dealing with constitutional problems.

Topic:   MUNICIPAL IMPROVEMENTS
Subtopic:   AUTHORIZATION OF LOANS TO ASSIST MUNICIPALITIES IN MAKING SELF-LIQUIDATING IMPROVEMENTS
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May 31, 1938