March 28, 1938

LIB

Charles Avery Dunning (Minister of Finance and Receiver General)

Liberal

Mr. DUNNING:

The hon. member means for the whole period, regardless of the method?

Topic:   SEED GRAIN
Subtopic:   GUARANTEE OF LOANS FOR PURCHASE OF SEED AND OTHER ASSISTANCE IN SEEDING OPERATIONS IN WESTERN PROVINCES
Permalink
CON

Grote Stirling

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. STIRLING:

Has the minister any idea of the total?

Topic:   SEED GRAIN
Subtopic:   GUARANTEE OF LOANS FOR PURCHASE OF SEED AND OTHER ASSISTANCE IN SEEDING OPERATIONS IN WESTERN PROVINCES
Permalink
LIB

Charles Avery Dunning (Minister of Finance and Receiver General)

Liberal

Mr. DUNNING:

With respect to seed, or everything?

Topic:   SEED GRAIN
Subtopic:   GUARANTEE OF LOANS FOR PURCHASE OF SEED AND OTHER ASSISTANCE IN SEEDING OPERATIONS IN WESTERN PROVINCES
Permalink
CON

Grote Stirling

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. STIRLING:

Seed.

Topic:   SEED GRAIN
Subtopic:   GUARANTEE OF LOANS FOR PURCHASE OF SEED AND OTHER ASSISTANCE IN SEEDING OPERATIONS IN WESTERN PROVINCES
Permalink
LIB

Charles Avery Dunning (Minister of Finance and Receiver General)

Liberal

Mr. DUNNING:

I shall give a brief statement with reference to it. In 1932-33 Manitoba got $600,000 by way of loan from the dominion government. Saskatchewan in the same year got $6,000,000 and Alberta, $140,000. In 1933-34-these are still loans to the governments, remember-Manitoba got for relief in the drought area, including seed grain, $250,000. There was nothing for Saskatchewan or Alberta in that year. In 1934-35 Manitoba got $225,000 for relief in the drought area, including seed grain; Saskatchewan got $3,000,000 for seed grain, and by way of specific loans to pay relief, feed and seed accounts on hand July 31, 1934, to 31st August, 1935, $4,500,000. Alberta in the same year got $2,095,000 for assistance in seed grain and seeding operations. In 1935-36 Manitoba received $408,000 under similar conditions to those previously related; Saskatchewan, $6,000,000, and Alberta, $1,100,000. The totals up ot that date, because that was the last year in which the direct loan policy was followed, are: Manitoba, less repayments, $1,106,000; Saskatchewan, less repayments, $18,900,000; and Alberta less repayments, $3,195,000.

It will be noted that some of these are not wholly for seed grain; there were years in which seed grain and relief were more or less run together. These amounts that I have indicated were, of course, affected to some degree by the write-offs authorized a year ago over loans generally in that year. But with respect to our guarantees which have been given, no losses have been paid by the dominion up to now. That is because the dominion's responsibility does not become enforceable until there have been three crops,

Seed Grain

including the crop sown, and that has not occurred as yet. Therefore, under the guarantees it cannot be said yet what our ultimate loss will be. It will be remembered that when I first suggested this type of legislation to the house two years ago, I related the satisfactory experience which Saskatchewan had had with the guarantee method as compared with the direct loan method over the years in the past. Where you have the guarantee method with the machinery of the municipality and of the bank helping you to collect, the experience during the years in which the credit of that province was good, when the province did not have to come to the dominion at all for supplementary credit, was that the great bulk of such seed grain loans were repaid under the guarantee method. Of course, we have not the conditions to deal with that have prevailed in 1936 and 1937.

Topic:   SEED GRAIN
Subtopic:   GUARANTEE OF LOANS FOR PURCHASE OF SEED AND OTHER ASSISTANCE IN SEEDING OPERATIONS IN WESTERN PROVINCES
Permalink
CON

Thomas Langton Church

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. CHURCH:

As I understand it, the

seed will be given through the municipalities, the province guaranteeing the municipality and the dominion guaranteeing the province, in this case to the banks, in an amount of some 814,500,000. What I want to know is why, in the matter of seed, the same principle is not followed as in connection with relief. In the distribution of relief the Minister of Labour does not deal with the municipalities. Why utilize a quasi-political body like the governor in council? Why not use Mr. Purvis, former head of the employment commission, who was selected by the Minister of Labour and was the representative of the duPont dynasty in Canada. The Globe and Mail is evidently trying to unload him on our party as leader so as to make our party, as it were, merely an adjunct of the duPont dynasty of America, and we are not going to become any such thing. I submit that there should be a principle behind every vote. Why should we deal differently with Saskatchewan and Alberta and let the farmers deal directly with the municipalities? Why should the Ontario government not deal directly with the mayors in relief matters, as in this Bill No. 78, instead of having the municipalities deal with and through the province? There is a principle involved, and I submit the proposed method is unfair. The same principle should apply in all the provinces on all relief measures.

Topic:   SEED GRAIN
Subtopic:   GUARANTEE OF LOANS FOR PURCHASE OF SEED AND OTHER ASSISTANCE IN SEEDING OPERATIONS IN WESTERN PROVINCES
Permalink
CON

Ernest Edward Perley

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. PERLEY:

I should like the minister

to look into the question of power. I think it would be advisable to discuss this matter with the provincial government, because there is no question about a shortage of power. I

have heard the statement made by the superintendent of one of the experimental farms in the west, that 40,000 horses which had been shipped to eastern Canada in the winter would not come back. That will deplete the horse power in the province to a considerable extent. The question is a serious one, and I hope the ministers will take it up with the provincial authorities and that more assistance will be given than is provided for under the legislation as it stands.

Topic:   SEED GRAIN
Subtopic:   GUARANTEE OF LOANS FOR PURCHASE OF SEED AND OTHER ASSISTANCE IN SEEDING OPERATIONS IN WESTERN PROVINCES
Permalink

Section agreed to. On section 5-Terms of guarantee.


CCF

Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. DOUGLAS (Weyburn):

In outlining the regulations the Minister of Agriculture said that a committee of the cabinet and an inspector for the district would determine the amount of seed grain to be advanced. Who will have the final veto? The municipal council will receive applications from a number of farmers and those applications will be forwarded to the committee who will sit in with the inspector from that particular district. If it is decided that the amount is too much, will the reduction be made on a percentage basis or will the individual applications be reviewed and reductions made where deemed advisable? The minister said that six men in a municipal council were in a better position to know the farmer's needs than we were in this house. I have heard that before, but often the municipal council's decision is vetoed by someone else. I know, of course, that there must be some control; but I should like to know where the veto will lie, and whether the final decision will cover the total advanced to the municipalities or whether individual cases will be considered.

Topic:   SEED GRAIN
Subtopic:   GUARANTEE OF LOANS FOR PURCHASE OF SEED AND OTHER ASSISTANCE IN SEEDING OPERATIONS IN WESTERN PROVINCES
Permalink
LIB

James Garfield Gardiner (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. GARDINER:

That is entirely a matter of provincial administration, and anything that I may say with regard to it cannot be at all conclusive. The practice is for farmers to apply to the secretary of the municipality, and when the council meets the applications are submitted and discussed by the committee who know the conditions. The applications are submitted either to the whole council or to a committee of the council and to the representative of the government, who will be this inspector spoken of here, and he reports back to Regina with regard to the matter. He makes his own check, and the decision is usually reached as a matter of agreement between the province and the municipality in exactly the same way as we reach an agreement with the provinces. They

Seed Grain

discuss the matter from all points of view and decide upon the total amount to take care of the municipality.

Topic:   SEED GRAIN
Subtopic:   GUARANTEE OF LOANS FOR PURCHASE OF SEED AND OTHER ASSISTANCE IN SEEDING OPERATIONS IN WESTERN PROVINCES
Permalink
CCF

Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. DOUGLAS (Weyburn):

Will the inspector be the final authority on the question as to what a certain farmer shall have, or by what amount his allotment shall be cut down?

Topic:   SEED GRAIN
Subtopic:   GUARANTEE OF LOANS FOR PURCHASE OF SEED AND OTHER ASSISTANCE IN SEEDING OPERATIONS IN WESTERN PROVINCES
Permalink
LIB

James Garfield Gardiner (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. GARDINER:

In 99 cases out of 100 they will agree that there is no final authority.

Topic:   SEED GRAIN
Subtopic:   GUARANTEE OF LOANS FOR PURCHASE OF SEED AND OTHER ASSISTANCE IN SEEDING OPERATIONS IN WESTERN PROVINCES
Permalink
CCF

Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. DOUGLAS (Weyburn):

Some of the councils do not feel that way.

Topic:   SEED GRAIN
Subtopic:   GUARANTEE OF LOANS FOR PURCHASE OF SEED AND OTHER ASSISTANCE IN SEEDING OPERATIONS IN WESTERN PROVINCES
Permalink
CON

Richard Bedford Bennett (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BENNETT:

Why does the minister put paragraph (ii) in this form? We are dealing with our own guarantee, and I should have thought we would have said that we are not going to give a guarantee for any liability which accrues prior to three years from the date the guarantee is given to the province. The conditions under which our obligation attaches under the second sub-paragraph of section 5 make it referable entirely to the provinces. I should have thought the minister would have said that our guarantee should not become effective until three years after the date of the payment by the banks, because it is covered by the agreement. We introduce into this bill a provision that it does not prevent the province from making voluntary payments from time to time before the expiration of the three years. What have we to do with that? Obviously any money the provinces pay, so much the better for us. The whole fabric is based on a different appreciation of the transaction that I have. We, the federal power, are not concerned about their condition; all we should say would be that our guarantee would not attach until three years after the date in any event when the payments were made by the bank.

Topic:   SEED GRAIN
Subtopic:   GUARANTEE OF LOANS FOR PURCHASE OF SEED AND OTHER ASSISTANCE IN SEEDING OPERATIONS IN WESTERN PROVINCES
Permalink
LIB

Charles Avery Dunning (Minister of Finance and Receiver General)

Liberal

Mr. DUNNING:

I speak with bated breath about the part of section 5 to which my right hon. friend refers, because nothing has had more microscopic attention on the part of eminent legal counsel than this section, in order to ensure that the liability of the province and that of the government of Canada shall be separate and successive, and not joint-

Topic:   SEED GRAIN
Subtopic:   GUARANTEE OF LOANS FOR PURCHASE OF SEED AND OTHER ASSISTANCE IN SEEDING OPERATIONS IN WESTERN PROVINCES
Permalink
CON

Richard Bedford Bennett (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BENNETT:

That is clear.

Topic:   SEED GRAIN
Subtopic:   GUARANTEE OF LOANS FOR PURCHASE OF SEED AND OTHER ASSISTANCE IN SEEDING OPERATIONS IN WESTERN PROVINCES
Permalink
LIB

Charles Avery Dunning (Minister of Finance and Receiver General)

Liberal

Mr. DUNNING:

-and, second, that we shall not give a dominion guarantee except in cases where the province has arranged that it shall have three years before its liability is enforced.

Topic:   SEED GRAIN
Subtopic:   GUARANTEE OF LOANS FOR PURCHASE OF SEED AND OTHER ASSISTANCE IN SEEDING OPERATIONS IN WESTERN PROVINCES
Permalink
CON

Richard Bedford Bennett (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BENNETT:

That is where we differ.

[Mr. Gardiner !

Topic:   SEED GRAIN
Subtopic:   GUARANTEE OF LOANS FOR PURCHASE OF SEED AND OTHER ASSISTANCE IN SEEDING OPERATIONS IN WESTERN PROVINCES
Permalink
LIB

Charles Avery Dunning (Minister of Finance and Receiver General)

Liberal

Mr. DUNNING:

With all respect I can only say that that is as I am advised.

Topic:   SEED GRAIN
Subtopic:   GUARANTEE OF LOANS FOR PURCHASE OF SEED AND OTHER ASSISTANCE IN SEEDING OPERATIONS IN WESTERN PROVINCES
Permalink
CON

Richard Bedford Bennett (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BENNETT:

I do not want to question the law officers, but I have seen some fearful and wonderful products occasionally. This undoubtedly makes the province the determining factor. I refer particularly to that part which provides that the province shall not be prevented from making payments from time to time. What have we to do with that? All we have to say is the second condition, that no liability shall accrue under our guarantee until the expiration of three years from the date of the advance.

Topic:   SEED GRAIN
Subtopic:   GUARANTEE OF LOANS FOR PURCHASE OF SEED AND OTHER ASSISTANCE IN SEEDING OPERATIONS IN WESTERN PROVINCES
Permalink

March 28, 1938