March 22, 1938

LIB

Arthur Graeme Slaght

Liberal

Mr. SLAGHT:

Will the hon. member

consider what her question implies? Mr. Roosevelt had a very different problem to consider on behalf of his country from that

which We have to consider on behalf of Canada in the present application. Surely if the hon. member has read his statement she will realize that he made that very clean He said he was entirely sympathetic with the desire of the province of Ontario and the Dominion of Canada to seek a market in the United States for surplus power. That is the attitude Mr. Roosevelt took, after learning of the conditions here to such an extent as he did learn them. He made it amply clear that his attitude was based On an entirely different point of view, namely, consideration of the best interests of the United States.

Topic:   ELECTRIC POWER
Subtopic:   TRANSFEB TO PARLIAMENT OF CONTROL OF EXPORT EXCEPT IN INTERNATIONAL EMERGENCY
Permalink
CCF

Abraham Albert Heaps

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. HEAPS:

If the facts regarding the

export of power were so irresistible, why did not the government grant the right to export?

Topic:   ELECTRIC POWER
Subtopic:   TRANSFEB TO PARLIAMENT OF CONTROL OF EXPORT EXCEPT IN INTERNATIONAL EMERGENCY
Permalink
LIB

Arthur Graeme Slaght

Liberal

Mr. SLAGHT:

There is a perfect answer

to that, if the committee will permit me to state it. The matter was given some consideration when the hon. member for Leeds (Mr. Stewart) brought forward a bill. It was then determined, not that Canada should never export more power; but the bill passed this house unanimously, and only by accident, I am told, did not pass the senate. I do not know whether my friend was here then; I think that he was not-

Topic:   ELECTRIC POWER
Subtopic:   TRANSFEB TO PARLIAMENT OF CONTROL OF EXPORT EXCEPT IN INTERNATIONAL EMERGENCY
Permalink
?

Some hon. MEMBERS:

Yes.

Topic:   ELECTRIC POWER
Subtopic:   TRANSFEB TO PARLIAMENT OF CONTROL OF EXPORT EXCEPT IN INTERNATIONAL EMERGENCY
Permalink
LIB

Arthur Graeme Slaght

Liberal

Mr. SLAGHT:

Was his voice raised then

in regard to the principle of having parliament deal with the export of power in future rather than continue the principle of having it dealt with by order in council? If he sat silent, as he does now, he gave tacit consent then. If I understand his psychology, had this government accepted either the Montreal Light, Heat & Power application or the subsequent ones from the Cedar Rapids Company or the hydro commission, and dealt with them by order in council, my hon. friend could not have got on his feet quickly enough to indict them for going back on the principle that this house had the sole right of control.

With regard to this bugaboo of a lobby, I think I owe it to the Ontario Hydro to call attention to the fact that they are a quasipublic corporation with no right to spend any money on any lobby. Their accounts are regularly audited. There has been no lobby that I know of for this bill. My friend the leader of the opposition dealt with that matter. I must confess-you may believe it or not-that I do not know the details of lobbies, but I venture to think that -the right hon. gentleman does.

Topic:   ELECTRIC POWER
Subtopic:   TRANSFEB TO PARLIAMENT OF CONTROL OF EXPORT EXCEPT IN INTERNATIONAL EMERGENCY
Permalink
LIB

James Houston Spence

Liberal

Mr. SPENCE:

You look innocent.

Electric Power Export

Topic:   ELECTRIC POWER
Subtopic:   TRANSFEB TO PARLIAMENT OF CONTROL OF EXPORT EXCEPT IN INTERNATIONAL EMERGENCY
Permalink
LIB

Arthur Graeme Slaght

Liberal

Mr. SLAGHT:

I hope I am not unfair if I suggest that for the many years he sat as a director of the Canadian Pacific Railway Company-

Topic:   ELECTRIC POWER
Subtopic:   TRANSFEB TO PARLIAMENT OF CONTROL OF EXPORT EXCEPT IN INTERNATIONAL EMERGENCY
Permalink
CON

Richard Bedford Bennett (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BENNETT:

Entirely mistaken; he was never on the board.

Topic:   ELECTRIC POWER
Subtopic:   TRANSFEB TO PARLIAMENT OF CONTROL OF EXPORT EXCEPT IN INTERNATIONAL EMERGENCY
Permalink
LIB

Arthur Graeme Slaght

Liberal

Mr. SLAGHT:

Then I withdraw.

Topic:   ELECTRIC POWER
Subtopic:   TRANSFEB TO PARLIAMENT OF CONTROL OF EXPORT EXCEPT IN INTERNATIONAL EMERGENCY
Permalink
CON

Richard Bedford Bennett (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BENNETT:

Wrong again.

Topic:   ELECTRIC POWER
Subtopic:   TRANSFEB TO PARLIAMENT OF CONTROL OF EXPORT EXCEPT IN INTERNATIONAL EMERGENCY
Permalink
LIB

Arthur Graeme Slaght

Liberal

Mr. SLAGHT:

Then as a gentleman who was zealous about the interests of that great corporation in the halls of parliament-

Topic:   ELECTRIC POWER
Subtopic:   TRANSFEB TO PARLIAMENT OF CONTROL OF EXPORT EXCEPT IN INTERNATIONAL EMERGENCY
Permalink
CON

Richard Bedford Bennett (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BENNETT:

Then that statement

should be withdrawn.

Topic:   ELECTRIC POWER
Subtopic:   TRANSFEB TO PARLIAMENT OF CONTROL OF EXPORT EXCEPT IN INTERNATIONAL EMERGENCY
Permalink
?

Some hon. MEMBERS:

Oh, oh.

Topic:   ELECTRIC POWER
Subtopic:   TRANSFEB TO PARLIAMENT OF CONTROL OF EXPORT EXCEPT IN INTERNATIONAL EMERGENCY
Permalink
CON

Richard Bedford Bennett (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BENNETT:

It is all very well to laugh.

Topic:   ELECTRIC POWER
Subtopic:   TRANSFEB TO PARLIAMENT OF CONTROL OF EXPORT EXCEPT IN INTERNATIONAL EMERGENCY
Permalink
CON

Charles Hazlitt Cahan

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. CAHAN:

That statement was entirely untrue.

Topic:   ELECTRIC POWER
Subtopic:   TRANSFEB TO PARLIAMENT OF CONTROL OF EXPORT EXCEPT IN INTERNATIONAL EMERGENCY
Permalink
CON

Richard Bedford Bennett (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BENNETT:

I do not hold, nor have I held since 1926 or 1927, any interest, direct or indirect, in any Canadian Pacific security; and I never have, in this house or elsewhere, promoted the interests of that corporation beyond my public duty.

Topic:   ELECTRIC POWER
Subtopic:   TRANSFEB TO PARLIAMENT OF CONTROL OF EXPORT EXCEPT IN INTERNATIONAL EMERGENCY
Permalink
LIB

Arthur Graeme Slaght

Liberal

Mr. SLAGHT:

Let me accept entirely the statement made by the right hon. gentleman and express regret that I was misinformed as to the facts.

Topic:   ELECTRIC POWER
Subtopic:   TRANSFEB TO PARLIAMENT OF CONTROL OF EXPORT EXCEPT IN INTERNATIONAL EMERGENCY
Permalink
CON

Charles Hazlitt Cahan

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. CAHAN:

I rise to a point of order. We have had an address now for a long time, exceeding the forty minutes I think, directed to a hypothetical private bill which the hon. gentleman announces, for the first time as far as I am aware, that he had intended to introduce, and which he states now he will not introduce. That the hon. gentleman intended to introduce a private bill was not known, I fancy, to a very great number on this side of the house. Why, I suggest, should the hon. gentleman be allowed to discuss a private bill which is not in existence, which is not now before the house and which seems to exist only in the imagination of the hon. gentleman?

Topic:   ELECTRIC POWER
Subtopic:   TRANSFEB TO PARLIAMENT OF CONTROL OF EXPORT EXCEPT IN INTERNATIONAL EMERGENCY
Permalink
LIB

Arthur Graeme Slaght

Liberal

Mr. SLAGHT:

May I direct the hon. gentleman's attention to the fact that in committee I am speaking to section 4 of this bill. That section contains various amendments which have been regarded by nearly every hon. member who has spoken as possibly applicable to an expected private bill from hydro, and I am using the illustration with regard to that expected private bill to be introduced later by hydro only, as a guide to hon. members of this committee in connection with circumstances which may arise next year or the year after. It will provide

some light, I hope, which will enable them to bring in now a general bill properly amended.

Before I leave the lobbying matter, Mr. Chairman, I think I have made it clear that this was a bugaboo raised as part of the scheme to kill the hydro bill. The leader of the opposition is very sensitive as to the possibility of some members of the house being affected by a lobby. I do not know whether anybody in bad grace-and certainly if it was done it was behind my back-has offered him a chocolate bar or a glass of ovaltine as an inducement to vote for the bill; or has offered the hon. gentleman who represents Kootenay East a rosy-cheeked Okanagan valley apple or a street car ticket to induce him to vote for the bill. Surely these hon. gentlemen have done a disservice to the whole house and the hon. members of the house by having it go out across Canada that there is a vigorous, vicious, evil lobby. Surely the sergeant at arms should be invoked to throw the lobbyists out of the corridors, if they are there. I submit that the whole thing was a red herring, nothing more and nothing less.

There is one point in regard to which I do not think information has been brought forward by anyone, and which is, and I think will be in the future, an important factor in determining whether or not it is safe to export power. It is in connection with the interruptions of power that have occurred in the past; and I am going to give an example going back only to last year. The power which we have been exporting under these licences, which hon. gentlemen opposite renewed for five years, has been interrupted time and again by mere telephone calls across the river from Niagara Falls, stating that they will have to turn off the power for given periods and for certain quantities. No revolution occurred. I have secured extracts from the log books, and without going into great detail let me tell the committee what they disclose. Seven days were chosen at random, from December 2 to December 9, 1937. I believe that power goes over on Sundays as well as week days. In the fifteenth hour, the thirty-second minute, Queenston No. 4 unit-I am quoting exactly from the log book-at the request of hydro reduced the export of surplus power from 75,000 kilowatts to 31,000 kilowatts for a period of time. On the very same day at another point the Toronto Power Company No. 1 unit, at request, reduced the export from 31.000 kilowatts to 23,000 kilowatts at another point. On the same day the Ontario Power Company No. 1 unit, at the request of the Canadian company, reduced their export from 23,000 kilowatts to 15,000 kilowatts. The Canadian

Electric Power Export

Niagara company's units Nos. 9 and 10 reduced their export of 15,000 kilowatts to zero. So the record goes. I am not going to read any more of these extracts, but that is what was done when peak loads came along and power was desired both in Canada and the United States. I am credibly informed that the procedure was simply this: the operator on the Canadian side simply called up the purchasers' operator on the United States side and said, "We are sorry; we have to cut off these quantities of power," and they acquiesced. There was no revolution; no army marched across the bridge to turn the power on again.

Topic:   ELECTRIC POWER
Subtopic:   TRANSFEB TO PARLIAMENT OF CONTROL OF EXPORT EXCEPT IN INTERNATIONAL EMERGENCY
Permalink
CON

Alexander McKay Edwards

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. EDWARDS:

That is hardly a cancellation. It is simply an interruption.

Topic:   ELECTRIC POWER
Subtopic:   TRANSFEB TO PARLIAMENT OF CONTROL OF EXPORT EXCEPT IN INTERNATIONAL EMERGENCY
Permalink

March 22, 1938