March 11, 1937

IND

James Samuel Taylor

Independent

Mr. TAYLOR (Nanaimo):

In any case I think the point is well taken. Another move in the right direction is the sealing down to Canada of a call and short term money market. Congratulations to the minister. The enlarged field of operations of the Central Bank of Canada should very early show its worth in this aim and bring the whole financial situation of the country into more favourable acceptance throughout the world.

And so I pass along to the pleasure with which the minister reviews the rising credits abroad. This in moderation is an excellent sign but taken in excess, like salt it nauseates and poisons, and at this period of our country's growth we do well not to encourage foreign credits to the point where we are compelled to invest abroad. The days when such a condition was a compelling advantage are gone. We live to-day in a world where even a negro in central Africa can become an expert aeroplane mechanic, and the successful exploitation of any country is particularly well attended to by its own nationals.

I will finish on one note prompted by the rising note of cheer and challenge with which the minister closed his speech. Let us truly see to it, as he said, that we qualify as a people in continued endeavour, individual, corporate and national integrity, to a keener sense of trusteeship in carrying out our every day business and civic responsibilities; but,

The Budget-Speaker's Ruling

here I say, let us not lose sight of the fact that in doing all these things our paramount duty is to do them first in Canada, first for Canada, and first by and with the amazing resources of Canada and the no less amazing resourcesfulness of the Canadian people.

And so, Mr. Speaker, I end, having both praised and blamed. I do not want the minister to feel like that excellent old character, Dick Fennell, in Pinero's Sweet Lavender, when he said, "Blame, blame, blame-oh yes; but praise-oh dear no." I want the minister to feel that there are many things in his budget which we have good reason to accept and be satisfied with, but the eternal concession to the orthodox in economic situations worries me so that I cannot understand why it is that he so slavishly follows it. However, taking it all by and large, I shall have very much pleasure in voting for the motion.

Topic:   THE BUDGET
Subtopic:   CONTINUATION OF DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL
Sub-subtopic:   FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
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SC

James Alexander Marshall

Social Credit

Mr. MARSHALL:

Mr. Speaker-

Topic:   THE BUDGET
Subtopic:   CONTINUATION OF DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL
Sub-subtopic:   FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
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LIB

Walter Edward Foster (Speaker of the Senate)

Liberal

Mr. SPEAKER:

Before the hon. member proceeds with his speech I should like to draw the attention of the members of the house to the point, of order which was raised by the hon. member for St. Lawrence-St. George (Mr. Cahan) before six o'clock with reference to a statement mad'd by the hon. member for Three Rivers (Mr. Gariepy) in the course of his speech. The hon. member for St. Lawrence-St. George said this:

Mr. Speaker, on a point of order; I would ask for your ruling whether it is open to members of the house at this time to discuss a subject now under investigation by a royal commission with respect to which no report has as yet been received or laid before the house.

I should like to ask whether any hon. member wishes to speak to the point of order? Then I will proceed to render my decision.

I refer to standing order No. 41. We find under this standing order that paragraph 293 states as follows:

Besides the prohibitions contained in this standing order, it has been sanctioned by usage both in England and in Canada, that a member, while speaking, must not: ,

(m) discuss messages or reports which are not regularly before the house.

And reference is made to Bourinot, at pages 358 and 474, and to May, at page 292.

By reference also to the order in council which was adopted in the year 1936, a copy of which will be found at page 84 of Hansard, February 11, 1936, it appears that the commission known as the Turgeon commission was appointed under chapter 99 of the revised statutes of Canada, 1927, and in the last part of the order in council it is stated:

The minister further recommends that the commissioner be instructed to make his report as speedily as possible.

[Mr. J. S. Taylor.J

As no report appears as yet to have been made by the commissioner the house cannot very well discuss the matter now. I think therefore, that the point of order raised by the hon. member for St. Lawrence-St. George was well taken, and that it was not competent for the hon. member for Three Rivers to proceed to discuss the matter.

Topic:   THE BUDGET
Subtopic:   CONTINUATION OF DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL
Sub-subtopic:   FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
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SC

James Alexander Marshall

Social Credit

Mr. J. A. MARSHALL (Camrose):

Budgets may come and budgets may go, but the problems of the returned soldier, of railways, of interest and debt, and of unemployment seemingly go on for ever. It is an old Canadian custom when hon. members are speaking to the budget, to extend to the Minister of Finance (Mr. Dunning) congratulations upon his presentation. This, with certain reservations, I do. I believe that we should reserve most of our congratulations for the taxpayers of this country who have striven valiantly through the medium of taxation to assist the Minister of Finance to balance his budget this year. They have taken upon themselves increased burdens, and they have done it with a smile. I say to the minister and to the party in office that no budget can be balanced unless the taxpayer takes out of his pockets the wherewithal to balance it.

Topic:   THE BUDGET
Subtopic:   CONTINUATION OF DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL
Sub-subtopic:   FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
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LIB

Charles Avery Dunning (Minister of Finance and Receiver General)

Liberal

Mr. DUNNING:

That goes without saying.

Topic:   THE BUDGET
Subtopic:   CONTINUATION OF DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL
Sub-subtopic:   FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
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SC

James Alexander Marshall

Social Credit

Mr. MARSHALL:

What long-suffering

patient mortals the taxpayers are! They are patient almost to a fault. It is necessary that they give the shirts off their backs almost to uphold the sanctity of interest contracts. The interest burden now resting upon the Canadian people is one under which they are going to crack one of these days, and the responsibility for such a situation will fall upon us in this parliament. I fear the time is not far distant when we shall have a revolution on our hands. Of course, we shall blame it upon the communists and the fascists, but we shall not be right in so doing. That revolution is coming, just as surely as night follows day, unless we awaken to our responsibility. Apparently we are not yet awake; I hope we shall awaken before it is too late.

I was interested in a statement which the minister made some little time ago when the bill covering home improvement loans was up for discussion. He stated at page 750 of Hansard:

I am just coming to the joker. The main reason why people who have $500, and who could get a home of that kind of which they would be proud, are not going into the scheme, is not because of any interest factor . . . but because the local taxes are what they are, and again I say that is within provincial and municipal jurisdiction.

The Budget-Mr. Marshall

I ask the minister: Are the municipalities and provinces alone in this matter of high taxation? I suggest to him that the reason for the high taxation is that a large portion of our tax dollar goes to pay interest. You cannot divorce taxation from interest or interest from taxation, no matter how you try. At least 25 cents of every dollar that the minister raises under the terms of his present budget go to pay interest charges. It was said the other day that over 40 cents goes to this one item, so I think I am safe in saying 25 cents. Interest is indeed an important and alarming factor in our whole business life to-day. It faces us at every step from the cradle to the grave. It has assumed such large and serious proportions that even governments all over the world, whether municipal, provincial or national, recognize that before we can hope to cope with any national problem we must tackle interest.

* May I now give a few moments to the question of unemployment. I realize, of course, that the amendment covered this point; but we cannot discuss the railway problem, or the problems of the returned soldiers or any other problem without bringing in the problem of unemployment and poverty, so closely are they connected. It is not only a national problem; it is international in its scope. It is not a disease, but a symptom of a disease.

Topic:   THE BUDGET
Subtopic:   CONTINUATION OF DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL
Sub-subtopic:   FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
Permalink
LIB

Ernest Lapointe (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Liberal

Mr. LAPOINTE (Quebec East):

I do not wish to interrupt my hon. friend, but this house has discussed unemployment on an amendment which has been disposed of, and I do not think he has the right to discuss it now.

Topic:   THE BUDGET
Subtopic:   CONTINUATION OF DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL
Sub-subtopic:   FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
Permalink
SC

James Alexander Marshall

Social Credit

Mr. MARSHALL:

I submit, Mr. Speaker, that the question is embodied in the budget, and for that reason I think I have a right to continue to discuss unemployment. It is closely allied to all these other problems, and I wish to show the connecting link between it and some of the other problems we have been discussing to-day.

Topic:   THE BUDGET
Subtopic:   CONTINUATION OF DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL
Sub-subtopic:   FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
Permalink
LIB

Ernest Lapointe (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Liberal

Mr. LAPOINTE (Quebec East):

The rules of the house say otherwise.

Topic:   THE BUDGET
Subtopic:   CONTINUATION OF DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL
Sub-subtopic:   FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
Permalink
SC

James Alexander Marshall

Social Credit

Mr. MARSHALL:

As one hon. member said a few days ago, unemployment is a sign of progress.

Topic:   THE BUDGET
Subtopic:   CONTINUATION OF DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL
Sub-subtopic:   FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
Permalink
LIB

Walter Edward Foster (Speaker of the Senate)

Liberal

Mr. SPEAKER:

The point of order raised by the Minister of Justice (Mr. Lapointe) is well taken. The question of unemployment was discussed on an amendment which has been submitted to the house and disposed of, and the hon. member is not in order now in discussing it.

Topic:   THE BUDGET
Subtopic:   CONTINUATION OF DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL
Sub-subtopic:   FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
Permalink
CCF

Angus MacInnis

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. MacINNIS:

On the point of order, Mr. Speaker, I submit that any subject matter of the budget is a matter of debate on this motion. The Minister of Finance dealt with the question of unemployment in his budget speech.

Topic:   THE BUDGET
Subtopic:   CONTINUATION OF DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL
Sub-subtopic:   FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
Permalink
LIB

Thomas Vien

Liberal

Mr. YIEN:

The ruling of the chair has been given; it is not now in order to speak to a point of order.

Topic:   THE BUDGET
Subtopic:   CONTINUATION OF DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL
Sub-subtopic:   FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
Permalink
CON

Richard Bedford Bennett (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BENNETT:

The point taken by the Minister of Justice (Mr. Lapointe) would undoubtedly be sound if this were other than the budget; but though the motion with respect to the attitude of the government towards employment has been negatived there still remains the right of a member of the house to allude, by way of illustration or analogy, to conditions respecting unemployment, though he cannot make that the subject matter of his address. I fancy that is what the minister meant when he pointed to the rule of the house. It would be a serious curtailment of the right of speakers if it were to be said that the use of illustrations or analogies in reference to the problem of unemployment was not available to them.

Topic:   THE BUDGET
Subtopic:   CONTINUATION OF DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL
Sub-subtopic:   FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
Permalink
LIB

Ernest Lapointe (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Liberal

Mr. LAPOINTE (Quebec East):

My right hon. friend was not listening to the hon. member. The hon. gentleman did not say that he was referring to unemployment or drawing an inference; he said that he was going to speak on the subject.

Topic:   THE BUDGET
Subtopic:   CONTINUATION OF DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL
Sub-subtopic:   FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
Permalink
CON

Richard Bedford Bennett (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BENNETT:

What the minister said with respect to that is undoubtedly true, but I thought that the hon. member said in effect: I now propose to deal with unemployment, not as the subject matter of my speech, but for the purpose of showing it to be one cause of the many evils from which the country is suffering. I did not understand that he was making unemployment the subject matter of his address but rather that he was touching upon it by way of analogy or illustration. I would not venture to discuss the matter, but I do think that to narrow the debate by precluding such references to the question of unemployment would be going farther than the rules have thus far gone. I wholly agree, however, that the amendment having been disposed of, the right of a member is restricted with respect to the question of unemployment, so that he cannot make it the subject matter of his address. I thought that the hon. gentleman was making the question merely incidental to the discussion of an evil which he was suggesting should be remedied.

The Budget-Point oj Order

Topic:   THE BUDGET
Subtopic:   CONTINUATION OF DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL
Sub-subtopic:   FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
Permalink
SC

James Alexander Marshall

Social Credit

Mr. MARSHALL:

If I have your permission to proceed, Mr. Speaker, unemployment, as one speaker said a few days ago, is a sign of progress, and that means that man is rapidly escaping from the era of slavery and bondage into one of leisure, brought about to a large degree by the mechanization of industry. I know that many do not agree with the Social Credit party in that regard, and that is why it is difficult for us to solve some of these other problems that arise out of it. I am indeed disappointed that the National Employment Commission has done so little. Some members try to insult our intelligence by saying that it has done a great deal, but I, for one, cannot accept this conclusion. It has done nothing, and so far as I can see it will do very little in the future. Someone from the depths of his wisdom has said that you get what you pay for, meaning, of course, that a good article will command a better price than a poor one. I think there is a lot of truth in that statement. The chairman of the National Employment Commission is Mr. Purvis. For his work as chairman of that commission he receives nothing, according to the returns which have been brought down. Up to the present we have had practically nothing from that commission. We have got what we paid for. Of course, I realize that the expenses of the commission have totalled somewhere in the neighbourhood of !SS5,000-

Topic:   THE BUDGET
Subtopic:   CONTINUATION OF DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL
Sub-subtopic:   FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
Permalink
LIB

Ernest Lapointe (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Liberal

Mr. LAPOINTE (Quebec East):

Mr. Speaker, I think this point must be decided. I claim that the amendment on the subject of unemployment having been discussed and voted down, the hon. member has no right now to discuss unemployment as the main subject of his address. I refer to paragraph 491 of Beauchesne, dealing with the situation where an amendment has been negatived on the motion to go into committee of supply or ways and means:

If that amendment is negatived, a discussion on other questions may be raised but no other motion can be proposed.

"A discussion on other questions." Surely my hon. friend cannot discuss the amendment again after it has been disposed of.

Topic:   THE BUDGET
Subtopic:   CONTINUATION OF DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL
Sub-subtopic:   FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
Permalink
SC

Robert Fair

Social Credit

Mr. FAIR:

When the amendment to this motion was being discussed we had a wide open debate, and the deputy speaker at that time ruled in favour of a wide open debate. We discussed almost everything and anything we wanted to on that amendment, and I do not see any reason why we should not be allowed to discuss unemployment on the budget. This is just one more way of putting this question under the table.

Topic:   THE BUDGET
Subtopic:   CONTINUATION OF DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL
Sub-subtopic:   FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
Permalink
?

Some hon. MEMBERS:

Order.

Topic:   THE BUDGET
Subtopic:   CONTINUATION OF DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL
Sub-subtopic:   FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
Permalink

March 11, 1937