February 24, 1937


Some hon. MEMBERS:

Go ahead.


Paul Joseph James Martin



I impress that point upon the house. I ask the Minister of Agriculture if he would not agree, having in mind that many of our agricultural problems can be best tested by others than governments. We call upon the government continually because, in that field of work, normally speaking only in the civil service can we find those equipped to deal with these problems. I venture to suggest that, just as in Denmark the improvement in agriculture has been spontaneous, coming from the people, so in Canada there would be less reliance upon the government if, for the time being, the government would adopt a policy of greater intervention in these matters. I do not want to mention the argument of cost; I hope it will not be brought up.


Agnes Campbell Macphail

United Farmers of Ontario-Labour

Miss MacPHAIL:

No, not after yesterday.


Paul Joseph James Martin



Not after yesterday, as the hon. gentleman says.


Some hon. MEMBERS:

Oh, oh.


Paul Joseph James Martin



I am afraid that in my zeal for this subject I have confused the sex of the hon. member. I simply wish to say this: I realize that expenditures have to be made. If there is justification for spending money on national defence; if there is justification for spending some $300,000 on the Royal Military College at Kingston, having in mind what statesmanship is really intended to mean, I believe there can be no comparison between the merits of this proposal and these other minor matters which, in the course of time, will appear as fleabites. But if there is any argument on the point of cost, I suggest that anyone who examines the achievements of research scholars of the National Research Council will see that, as a result of

the scientific endeavour of one of these scholars, more money has come to Canada than has been expended, during the years from 1916 on, on scholarships on behalf of the National Research Council. But even if that were not the case, surely that is not the test. Perhaps the results of such a policy are incalculable, but the real test is this: Is this not a preventive measure? The very nature of research precludes any consideration of cost.

I thank the house for its indulgence, but before I take my seat I should like to refer to the National Research Council. I think, Mr. Speaker, that the amount of money we spend on the National Research Council is highly inadequate. It seems to me that in the light of what other countries have done and are doing for research we have no reason to be proud of our record. First of all, on the scholarship side, anyone who is familiar with the projects contemplated and the work to be done will realize that twice the number of scholarships which are extended to national research fellows would not take care of the need. I should like to place on Hansard the record of contributions by this government, in terms of scholarships, to the National Research Council:

National Research Council

Expenditures on Post-Graduate Research Scholarships

1917-18. $ 5,550 001918-19.

7,150 001919-20.

20,850 001920-21.

17,700 001921-22.

38,575 001922-23.

35,725 1101923-24.

37,830 001924-25.

40,101 661925-26.

40,082 001926-27.

41,105 001927-28.

41,855 001928-29.

43,720 001929-30.

49,990 001930-31.

59,535 001931-32.

38,490 001932-33.

17,605 001933-34.

9,160 001934-35.

11,825 001935-36.

13,205 00

May I say, Mr. Speaker, that since this resolution was placed on the order paper I have received letters from over five thousand people in this country, from university professors, from ministers, from industrialists, from teachers and particularly from young men and young women. If we are to avoid the pitfalls which are sometimes evident in other countries more than in our own, we should recognize that the state has a definite obligation. As I have already said, the argument with which I shall be met is that education is a matter for the provinces, but there

Scholarships-Mr. Walsh

is nothing to prevent the federal government from offering positive assistance, consistent with the exclusive jurisdiction which by law is accorded to the provinces. At a time when we are talking of national unity and of the divisions that exist in our own country, perhaps a scheme of national scholarships open to men and women of merit in every part of Canada might help to emphasize what I think we in this house should emphasize, namely, that if Canada is to remain a confederation of nine provinces we must continually bring to the front the state in terms of the federal arm of government.

I am aware, Mr. Speaker, that all sorts of criticism will be levelled at this proposal. I know many will say that it is all right for those who want education, that it is a project to assist intellectuals. It may hold out that advantage; it may act as an encouragement in these days to young men and young women who are looking for encouragement. I believe I might put my argument on a sounder basis.

I am not thinking of extending charity; I am not only thinking of young men and women in the cities and in the rural districts who need special assistance. I am thinking in terms of my own country. I should like to see Canada utilize the same forces that other countries have used and are using in their attempt to secure a strengthened economy. I fully believe that if the government could see its way clear to set up a committee, not necessarily of paid officials but of eminent men and women who would volunteer their services, to prepare the lines along which this proposition might be worked out, in a period of time this proposal would stand a test which few measures, in the long run, are able to stand.

Mr. W. A. WALSH (Mount Royal); Mr. Speaker, in rising to support the motion that has been presented by the hon. member for Essex East (Mr. Martin) I wish I could discuss the matter as eloquently as he has, but I am afraid in that respect I shall fall very considerably short; therefore I would ask the house to bear with me while I make a few remarks on the subject under debate.

First of all. and without indulging in any flattery, I wish to compliment the hon. member for Essex East on the very able manner in which he has presented his motion. His argument was in terms so clear and concise, his illustrations so aptly chosen, and his supporting data so carefully selected, that if there were any doubt in the mind of anyone when he came into the house as to the wisdom of accepting the motion I am sure that by now it must have been altogether removed.

May I say also that I feel very happy in following my hon. friend from Essex East when I realize that he is a Canadian of French descent, a Roman Catholic, and from the province of Ontario, and I myself, seconding his motion, am a Canadian of English descent, a Protestant, and from the province of Quebec. I think this will serve, as does the motion itself, to emphasize the national unity that exists and always should exist in this Canada of ours.

A number of years ago, when I was considerably younger than I am to-day, I read the pages of Oliver Goldsmith's Deserted Village, and many in this house will remember at least the first two lines as I do:

Sweet Auburn! lovliest village of the plain, Where health and plenty cheer'd the labouring swain,-

It went on from there, and in one passage these words occur:

Beside yon straggling fence that skirts the way,

With blossom'd furze unprofitably gay,

There, in his noisy mansion, skill'd to rule, The village master taught his little school.

I am in one sense the personification of the character presumed to be represented in that part of Oliver Goldsmith's Deserted Village.

I think, if I am correct in my estimation, that I am possibly the only member of this house who is at present actively engaged in the teaching profession and who hopes, God willing, to remain actively engaged in it for a number of years yet to come. For that reason I desire to lend every possible encouragement to the purpose of the motion, in the hope that I may contribute to the subject under discussion something that will at least lend weight to the arguments that have been used by the mover.

May I just say in passing, Mr. Speaker, that I am happy to see returning to this house the hon. member for Sherbrooke (Mr. Howard), who has been enjoying a profitable holiday in a climate which at this time of the year is a little better than our own, whose family in days gone by made a very considerable contribution to the cause of education as exemplified in this motion, and who is himself a member of the Protestant Committee of Education for the province of Quebec. I am sure he is deeply interested in this motion and in the discussion that will take place upon it.

I am fully aware, as the mover has already impressed upon the house, that education is a subject which was placed under the jurisdiction of the provincial governments by the fathers of confederation when they framed the British North America Act in 1867. I

Scholarships-Mr. Walsh

for one would not in any way seek to change what the fathers of confederation so wisely did in this respect. But the motion has nothing whatsoever to do with any change in our educational systems as they exist today, and I hope to make that abundantly clear as I go from point to point in the course of my remarks.

The provinces are doing an admirable job in the field of education. The motion does not in any way seek to criticize the activities which the provinces are carrying on in the educational field or the manner in which they are carrying on those activities. This proposal is designed in particular to give encouragement to whatever they may be doing in this field without striving, by any devious ways whatsoever, to enter the field of education, which we all recognize belongs strictly and entirely to the provincial governments. The purpose of the motion is to supplement the efforts not only of our provincial governments but also of all existing organizations interested in the subject of education.

In my native province of Quebec the schools, of course, date back to many, many years prior even to confederation. We had a peculiar system of education in our early days, and it was not until the year 1790 that there was any real order put into our educational work as conducted in that province. A commission was appointed at that time headed by the chief justice of the province, William Smith, and it is interesting to notice one of the phrases that he used in connection with the recommendations brought forward by that commission. He suggested the establishment of three parish schools, "for the teaching of the three R's in order that the lower classes might be lifted out of a state of base barbarism." That was in 1790. I want to assure this house that in the province of Quebec we have made very long strides since the year 1790. We have an educational system of which we are justly proud, and I want to remind the house that we have living within our province two great peoples, Canadians of French descent and Canadians of English descent. We carry on our educational systems-I want you to notice that word; it is in the plural-we carry on our educational systems without any conflict whatsoever. The Protestant educational system is in no way interfered with by our Catholic or French-speaking majority; and likewise the Catholic and French system is in no way interfered with by the English-speaking and Protestant minority. Such is the condition in the province of Quebec, where these two great peoples live side by side in complete harmony one with (Mr. Walsh.)

the other, particularly where the educational field is concerned, so that we can immediately dispel from our minds the possibility of the creation of friction as a result of the adoption by the house of any measure such as is proposed in the motion now before us.

I am much impressed by the terms of the motion, particularly the last paragraph, which I may be allowed to quote:

That, in the opinion of this house, following the practice already established in Great Britain and other industrial countries, the government should investigate the desirability of a system of national scholarships to be made available to outstanding students who are financially unable to continue their education, to enable them to secure under-graduate and (or) post-graduate training in our universities, university colleges, agricultural colleges and technical schools.

I have been deeply impressed also by the reasons advanced in support of this resolution by the hon. member who moved it and by the paragraphs that precede the concluding portion of the motion. His resolution was very carefully prepared, and, as I have said, he is to be commended for the manner in which he has presented the subject to the house. I't will be noticed that he has not emphasized solely academic pursuits; he has discussed also the possibilities of graduate and undergraduate work in our agricultural and technical schools. Personally I prefer that the emphasis should be placed upon those two particular phases, because I believe that from them our primary industry of agriculture and our secondary industry of manufacturing would be greatly assisted by the trained minds which could be brought into action through the medium of scholarships, an asset which is being lost to Canada because of the inability of these young people to finance themselves through a graduate or undergraduate course in any of our universities, agricultural colleges or technical schools.

Our provinces are specifically charged with the work of education, but, as we know, many if not all are financially embarrassed and for that reason are not able to give the measure of assistance in the field of education which no doubt under happier circumstances they could provide. For that reason, in my opinion, the dominion government should at this time bring into play its financial resources so as to give these young men an opportunity to further their education, and thereby become the national assets that God evidently intended them to be when He endowed them with the latent ability that we should provide the means to develop.

If, Mr. Speaker, we canvassed the members of this house we should be astonished to find how many hon. members have been

Scholarships-Mr. Walsh

assisted to a higher degree of education through scholarships provided by schools, by governments, by private enterprise or by other organizations interested in education. When I began to study this question and discussed it with various hon. members, I was amazed at the number who told me, in effect, "Well, I should not be where I am or what I am to-day if such and such a scholarship had not been available for me when I was going through high school or just entering college." Many in this house have thus been assisted to bring to the affairs of the state a trained mind. Why should not the dominion government, as other countries have done, interest themselves in this field and provide opportunities for the development of latent talent for use in the industries of our country?

As was mentioned by the mover of the resolution, many organizations have endorsed it. I might mention the Citizens Research Institute, of Toronto, the National Research Council, the Canadian Teachers' Federation, the Canadian Federation of School and Home Clubs. Also, of course, our universities and colleges are one hundred per cent behind this motion, and all express the hope and have the expectation that it will be adopted, thus giving the government the privilege of at least discussing the matter and if possible bringing in a measure upon which this house can act, or of acting themselves without further discussion in this chamber.

I have mentioned our universities and our colleges. Many of us are graduates of universities. I am thinking of one university in the city of Montreal, known as l'Universite de Montreal, a French Canadian institution which has been established for many years. Although this is somewhat aside from the question under discussion, indirectly it bears on it. L'Universite de Montreal is situated, in an unfinished condition, on the northern slopes of the mountain around which Montreal is built. . It is in financial distress, and I am sorry that the Minister of Labour (Mr. Rogers) is not in his seat; for I was going to suggest to him that when he is considering relief projects for Montreal and for the province of Quebec he might provide ways and means for the completion of that university, so that we may have on the northern slopes of Mount Royal a foundation which will become nationally and internationally known as a centre of French culture in the second largest French-speaking city in the world. In this matter I wish not to be misunderstood. I am not saying this for political purposes, nor have I any political motive in view. It does not affect me in my constituency. What I have said arises from a deep conviction

and a sincere interest in the cause of education and in the project that has been put forward by the mover of this resolution. Scholarships could then be provided in an exceptionally fine university where students, even English-speaking students, could get the benefit of French culture. I hope the Minister of Labour will give due consideration to this suggestion and make it possible for us in Montreal to have this centre of French culture completed at an early day.

I believe it was von Bismarck of Prussia and Germany who on one occasion said that the nation that has the schools has the future. This motion will provide an incentive for our schools to do even better work than they are doing at present. Our schools are doing very excellent work and I do not wish them to feel that I am in any way suggesting that they need this spur; but I believe it would be an added incentive to them to instil a deeper sense of responsibility into the minds of the pupils who are attending our schools to-day, and in so doing encourage some of the brighter pupils to look forward to the possibility of taking advantage of one of these national scholarships. In my opinion our schools need that encouragement; education in Canada needs it. As we all know, education is something of a sacred trust. Although at present it reposes in the provinces, we believe that the government at Ottawa should indirectly take an interest in education and seek to give some measure of encouragement to the excellent work which the provinces are doing.

Education is a heritage that we ourselves in this generation must assist in every possible way, so that as we pass from' the field of activity we can leave behind us those who are probably better educated than we had an opportunity of being. Education is a process that is intended to fit the individual to become a valuable and useful member of society, and by the adoption of this motion I suggest that we should be making a greater use of our educational system, and making of that system a real national asset and a national benefit. We must emphasize that point and emphasize it rather definitely.

In conclusion I should like to sum up in a few words my reasons for supporting ihe resolution so ably moved by the hon. member for Essex East. I would emphasize again that it will in no way interfere with provincial administration of our educational systems. I suggest again that it will emphasize the Canadian point of view in our educational systems, that it will encourage and supplement the efforts that are now being made, and place educational facilities at the disposal of those who would otherwise have to forego

Scholarships-Mr. Massey

them. It will not establish any precedent, because the government of Canada has interested itself in education on many previous occasions and made grants to provincial governments for provincial education in days gone by for the purpose of giving them the advantage of additional income so that they could carry on their work more effectively. For these reasons I have seconded the motion that has been moved and I give it my unqualified support.


Denton Massey

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. DENTON MASSEY (Greenwood):

I am sure that one may heartily congratulate the hon. member for Essex East (Mr. Martin) on his presentation of this very important problem. Those of us who know him personally-and I am sure he will permit me to say this-realize the worthy effort that he put into his own education and the value that scholarships have been to him-scholarships well won and applied. And perhaps in his presentation this afternoon, which was indeed a most erudite and scholarly exposition of his purpose, one could find that he himself was his own best recommendation for what he is advocating. Then, too, it would seem significant that the one who seconded the motion, the hon. member for Mount Royal (Mr. Walsh), is himself a superintendent of schools. So that this motion has been launched ably and under most auspicious circumstances. When therefore two hon. members such as those who have moved and seconded the motion bring it to the attention of this house its purpose must be a most worthy one and one to which the government should give full consideration.

It would seem to be a common failing of human nature to tend to regard lightly the value and importance of an education. Sometimes it would seem that we fail to recognize the vitalizing value and the quickening influence and practical worth of scholastic and academic education. In Canada, however, we have gone far along the way of providing means of education for our youth during the most important and vital stages of their earlier development.

One-fifth of our total population is represented by children attending school, and tomorrow morning throughout the length and breadth of this dominion 2,300.000 children will go to school, almost double the number that went to school twenty-six years ago. These children will trudge their way, some of them unwillingly and others gladly, to meet 73,000 teachers. It is noteworthy that the Canadian schools number on their rolls twice as many children as there are farmers in the whole of the dominion, and as many

as there are men and women in all other occupations combined. Granted that the schools across the length and breadth of this dominion, under the restrictions under which they have been placed in regard to expenditure, have done an extraordinarily fine piece of work; granted that the vast majority of the 73,000 teachers are noble men and women, working many of them for pathetically small salaries, but conscious of the weight of responsibility that rests upon them; granted that the attendance at schools is on the increase- for the average child to-day spends eight and a half years in school, whereas his or her parents spent only six; granted a good many other things in connection with our educational system of which we may be justly proud, have we yet realized fully the importance of education?

In 1930 and 1931 the national expenditure in Canada was $4,750,000,000, of which fifty-five per cent was spent for food, clothing and shelter, including the taxes paid as part of the purchase price. Seven per cent went for direct taxes, eight per cent for savings and thirty per cent for other things, including approximately eight per cent for indirect taxes and 3-5 per cent for schools and universities. Only 3-5 per cent of our national expenditure went to schools and universities. And my definition of university is the same as that of the hon. member for Essex East, and includes agricultural colleges, technical schools and so on.

I referred a moment ago to the salaries paid to some of our teachers. This house was shocked a few weeks ago when the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar (Mr. Coldwell) drew to its attention the salaries paid-or at least that were not being paid-to some of the teachers in his own province of Saskatchewan. While conditions may not be as extreme in other parts of Canada as in the dried^out areas of that province, nevertheless looking to my own province of Ontario I find that the average salary of public school teachers in 1934 was only $1,141. And in the same year in Saskatchewan the average salary paid in the rural elementary schools was the amazing figure of $505. Yet it is upon these men and women that we place the responsibility for ;he education of our children, the most priceless asset of the nation. And only 3-5 per cent of our national expenditure is devoted to education. I fully admit that the number of dollars spent on the school system does not measure its value. The test of any educational system is, does it educate? The value of any educational system is to be found, not in the beauty of its buildings and equipment, not in the theories that motivate it,

Scholarships-Mr. Massey

but in what the pupil learns. Does he leave school, or whatever institution it may be, equipped and ready to face the practical workaday problems of life? What has he learned concerning the cultural things which help to make him not only a man but a gentleman? Has he been regarded as an individual and had his native traits and individual tendencies recognized and developed fully, or has he been just one of thirty or forty pupils or whatever number may be in a class room? Has he merely been exposed to the prescribed course of study, or his some effort been made to see that he not only swallowed but digested what he was given? In other words, what sort of foundation is being laid for him for the days when he is forced to build upon it and is faced with the problem of earning his own living?

In the remarks I am making it is not my desire or my purpose to criticize the educational system of this country. A noble work is being done in all provinces. But do we make it possible for the worthy student to go as far as he or she would or could? Is money, or rather the lack of money, a barrier to higher and specialized education? As the hon. member for Essex East has so well pointed out, in Canada it would indeed appear so. And when we realize what is being done in other countries, as has been so well demonstrated this afternoon, to develop students who have shown themselves meritorious and worthy, young people of character and of guarded and studied ambition, and of hope not only for themselves but also for the nation to which they belong, then I say it is high time that we took stock of ourselves to see where the slack may be in our system of education.

It would seem that in this resolution the quick centre of our difficulty has been touched. Hon. members know well that legion is the name of those who have been and are compelled to curtail their early education by reason of various and difficult circumstances The unemployment of parents and heads of families because of conditions for which they are in no way responsible has meant that boys and girls, young men and young women, have been denied the training necessary to equip them properly and adequately for their life's vocation. Then too our schools, which have a high standard of usefulness, the sphere of which for years they have been widening, as a result of lack of funds have in many cases not been able to provide adequate facilities for technical training. In these days, horrible to relate, apprenticeship is almost unknown in this country. The lack of this training has been painfully felt in far too many 31111-76

quarters. It is regrettable that the Minister of Labour (Mr. Rogers) is not here to participate in this debate, but I am sure he would be here were he not prevented. It is of the utmost importance for us to realize that in this dominion we are facing or are about to face a scarcity of trained men and women for highly specialized jobs. As I mentioned in the house the other day, in the building industry alone a comparatively small percentage of increase in its activities would occasion an absolute shortage of skilled mechanics.


Ernest Lapointe (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)


Mr. LAPOINTE (Quebec East):

Will my hon. friend permit me? The Minister of Labour has been here this afternoon; he was compelled to go out for a few minutes, but he will come back. I should not like it to appear on the record that he was away while this resolution was debated.


Denton Massey

Conservative (1867-1942)


I am very glad to withdraw the remark, but I am sure the minister heard me say that he would be here if it were not for some very good reason.

There are upwards of 130,000 young men and young women attending technical schools in Canada. But this number is less than one per cent of our total population, and only about five per cent of our school-going population. Attending universities in Canada there are to-day 32,500 young men and young women, about 1-5 per cent of our school-going population. I am sure that when we consider the importance, for those who are capable of absorbing it, who merit it, and who wish to have it, of university education or technical or advanced or specialized education in some form-, it seems extraordinarily unfortunate that so small a percentage of our population is able to take advantage of the opportunities that these institutions have to offer.

Last session I was privileged to introduce a resolution dealing with the reestablishment of youth. During the course of my remarks, as reported on page 907 on Hansard of March 9, 1936, I drew the attention of the house to the percentage of those who remained in school after sixteen years of age. Those figures themselves tell the story, when it is realized that so many of our young people find it necessary to leave school for various reasons at or before the age of sixteen, and when so often the reason is the absence of funds to permit them to carry on.

Now, what have we done in connection with scholarships? It would seem unnecessary to bring this crying need to the attention of the house in the way it has been. We have witnessed what has been done in other countries, as it has been so ably demonstrated by

Scholarships-Mr. Massey

the hon. member for Essex East this afternoon. Should we be so slow to recognize what we should do and must do in Canada? What means have been taken to provide for the better students, the meritorious students, to carry on with their education? Scores, yes thousands, of young men and women are compelled to leave school in order to seek employment, and many times it is a hopeless effort to look for a job. Their education is cut short; they are denied opportunities for further education simply because of the lack of funds. To that I have referred previously, and I refer to it again with emphasis. There are many problems that face governments in these days, Mr. Speaker, not alone the governments of this nation but those of all nations. But what more important problem can there be for the consideration of the government than the problem of making available higher education to those who have proven themselves able and willing to embrace it, and thus the better to fit the most meritorious of our youth for the days to come, when they will be engaged in gainful occupation?

Eor many years it has been my peculiar privilege to have an extensive contact with youth, both as a result of my vocation and as the result of an avocation. Scores of young men have come to me in the last twelve years or so from all walks of life and with all sorts of problems. In thinking over some of the cases that have come to my attention during the last few years I came to a letter, written on the the letterhead oi the Danforth Technical School, Greenwood avenue north of Danforth, Toronto, under date of January 14, 1937. The Danforth Technical School is a most worthy institution, presided over most ably by the principal, Mr. Ferguson. Under the date mentioned he has written, in part, as follows:

We have in this school a young boy sixteen and a half years of age and in the third year industrial course, majoring in pattern making and design. This boy's father has been and is still out of work for about four years, and I believe, the family is on partial relief. The boy informs us that it will be necessary for him to stop school almost immediately to become a wage earner since there are six children in the family, five of whom are girls. The teachers' confidential report, which I am submitting, is very encouraging, he, of course, stood first in his class.

In order to supplement the teachers' report we gave him a group intelligence test which revealed a mental age of practically twenty years and an intelligence quotient of 124-5. Realizing that this was an exceptional boy, both from the standpoint of intelligence and

application, I arranged to have Mr. M. Par-menter, who is experienced in administering individual intelligence tests, to give him an individual test which revealed an I.Q. considerably above the average.

Here is an exceptionally bright boy whose school career is about to be curtailed because of the financial conditions in the home. I would like to see, if at all possible, some sort of scholarship arranged for the boy so that he could not only complete his four-year industrial course but carry on through the university in the school of science. It is boys of this type that should make our leaders in the future. If you can suggest any way by which this can be brought about it would be greatly appreciated by all of those connected with this school and, I believe, would be rendering a service to the nation as a whole.

I had a long talk with that boy. Personally I found him to be everything that his principal suggested in this letter. I found that boy in this position, that it would be necessary for him to cease attending school immediately. What was there for that boy but to do what he was forced by circumstances to do? It was impossible for him to carry on; it was impossible for him to go ahead and finish his four year course, let alone go to the university. Here is an intrinsic asset to this nation, more precious than all the silver and gold in the mines of Canada, yet we permit circumstances which we can control to carry boys like this away from their studies and force them to take any jobs they can get, thus depriving them of the fullest benefits of an education. Why should it be that the son of a wealthy man, regardless of how much intelligence the boy may possess, regardless of how thick his skull may be and regardless of anything else, should have the opportunity of a cultural training, a university training, while that opportunity is denied a boy such as I have described, though in the case of some of the sons of wealthy men, their thick skulls may provide a veritable anvil for weary pedants to pound upon?

It is said by some that the lack of money really is no handicap to the boy who actually wants an education, that he can work his way through university; it has been done over and over again, it may be said. It is true that it has been done, but how many times must we remind ourselves that these are vastly different days from those of the 1920's, that we are facing conditions vastly different from those that existed fifteen years ago? How can a young man count upon going to university, where he knows he wilt have to face the necessity of paying fees, paying for books, paying this and paying that,

Scholarships-Mr. Massey

when he must hazard the whole thing on being able to obtain a job firing a furnace or doing something similar? There is no desire on the part of the youth of this country to be spoon fed. I fully believe there is just as much red blood coursing through the veins of Canadian youth to-day as was ever the case, but Canadian youth must recognize the situation with which it is faced. So must we, and so must provincial and municipal governments. Times have been and are cruel; the struggle has been against seemingly unconquerable odds and against influences that certainly have been uncontrollable. But to-day unnecessary hazards and handicaps beset the path of youth. Should we not as a parliament do something, in the face of the conditions that have been sketched this afternoon by the hon. member for Essex East and the hon. member for Mount Royal (Mr. Walsh); or should we just sit back and do nothing while many of our young people are deprived of the opportunity to obtain the advantages of higher education?

Last year, during the course of the debate to which I have referred already, in connection with the resolution I introduced having to do with the establishment of a national youth reestablishment commission, the Minister of Labour (Mr. Rogers) said in part, as reported on page 919 of Hansard:

In conclusion, Mr. Speaker, I would repeat that the government is fully in sympathy with the reestablishment of the youth of this country and, like any government conscious of its responsibility in relation to unemployment at this time, we will take every possible step to see to it that young men and women are given opportunities within which they may realize their desire for remunerative employment. I do not believe the youth of this dominion expect ready-made jobs, nor do I believe that the solution for unemployed youth lies in public employment. If I did believe that I should have some misgivings for the future of Canada. It is our duty to create conditions within which our Canadian youth may once more, as in other years, find their own opportunities and make the most of them.

It will be recalled, as has been mentioned already this afternoon, that the Technical Education Act of 1919, through grants in aid to the provinces, made it possible for the provinces to carry on technical education. In 1921, as a direct result of that act, there were 57,000 students enrolled in technical schools. Eight years later, in 1929, there were 121,000, and even in 1934, under such conditions as we have discussed this afternoon, there were 122,000 students. There, it would seem to me, is the legitimate echo to expect from the remarks made by the Minister 31X11-76J

of Labour last year, that if worthy work is done along these lines the results are assured. After all, the Technical Education Act was not an unusual act. The bugaboo and hazards of interfering with provinces were gracefully overcome. The provinces were glad to accept the assistance. The money was used, and used adequately and well, with the result that in ten short years 121,000 of our Canadian youth found themselves in a position to avail themselves of technical education.

The value of scholarships is indeed beyond debate. Those of us who have had to do with youth, those of us who have had to do with young men and women, fully realize the value of scholarships. We speak a great deal, and with much pride, of our national resources. We talk in glowing terms about our country, rich in natural resources. Hon members coming from constituencies wherein are forests, mines and the like, boast about the great wealth of Canada. There is no wealth in Canada which could even begin to compare in value with the potential wealth supplied by our youth. Are we to-day going to fail to "mine" that youth? In other words are we not going to do our best to bring to the surface the fullest and best within that youth?

I strongly support the resolution. Its passage would be hailed with great acclaim throughout Canada. Youth is vocal these days; youth has spoken and is speaking on this point. The hon. member for Essex East, the hon. member for Weyburn (Mr. Douglas) and myself, as delegates to the League of Nations, had the opportunity this summer of attending the world youth congress at Geneva. During the course of that congress and within the Canadian delegation itself there was much discussion concerning scholarships. The Canadian Youth Congress,- one of the national youth organizations in Canada, in a statement of its principles, refers specifically and directly to the desire of youth to be able to embrace scholarships, in other words that scholarships be set up within this dominion. Other youth organizations throughout the length and breadth of Canada have likewise expressed themselves.

The hon. member for Essex East states he has received 5,000 communications in regard to this great problem. Youth is vocal in the matter, and as one who has been actively interested for many years in the wefare of Canadian youth, with all the earnestness of which I am capable I urge upon the government their ready acceptance of the burden of the resolution.

Scholarships-Mr. Mutch

It was George Eliot who wrote:

There is no short-cut, no patent tram-road to wisdom. After all the centuries of inventions, the sole path lies through the thorny wilderness which must still be trodden m solitude with bleeding feet, with sobs for help, as it was trodden by them of olden times.

May the government not be deaf to this appeal for help!


Leslie Alexander Mutch


Mr. L. A. MUTCH (Winnipeg South):

Mr. Speaker, it is no part of my plan or intention to discuss the value of education as such. That must be patent to all. As one who for some time has been engaged in educational work I have knowledge of the need of a measure of encouragement or assistance to permit students who are financially unable to pursue advanced studies to continue their educational training.

May I congratulate the hon. member for Essex East (Mr. Martin) upon the thoroughness of the preparation and presentation of his observations, and upon the excellent work he has done throughout Canada in promoting the ideas exemplified in the resolution now under consideration.

I note the resolution states that the government should investigate the desirability of a system of national scholarships. Sir, I have no doubt of the desirability. I would ask that the government consider ways and means of making a beginning on such a program. It has been said and demonstrated in the house that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. In Canada there are many students [DOT]-I have taught some of them myself-with brains capable of assimilating knowledge, and with the will to study. Too often, having had their minds awakened by the processes of study, through adverse financial circumstances they have been obliged to abandon their studies carried on under the guidance of ftien and women skilled in leading the student mind away from the pitfalls of halftruths which throng the pathway of the student. What is the result? Too often the result has been that those active brains go on, unguided, building for themselves on false premises, or at the best on half-truths, adhering to all or any of the crack-pot theories which bedevil the thinking of people in Canada to-day.

We need to conserve and develop that brain power. Surely the British North America Act cannot prevent the people of Canada through us, their representatives, from offering to help and encourage, by way of scholarships, all worthy students who have shown possibilities. I am particularly concerned with the carrying on of advanced education under such a system. I do not think it

is possible to do too much at one time, but we must begin somewhere. My own observation from experience is that the real and crying need to-day is to pick out those who have shown unusual possibilities and allow them to go on into the realm of investigation and into the speculative part of education so that under proper guidance they may serve Canada more intelligently in whatever sphere or whatever phase of Canadian life they may follow.

Therefore to my mind it is important that we should consider the matter from the standpoint of conservation. I believe we must look to the conservation of our best brains, which, although perhaps not yet developed, give promise of something for the future. We are reminded constantly of the lack of balanced thinking, and I believe much of that is due to the fact that having reached a certain stage really bright minds are left to shift for themselves, building without a sure foundation, lacking in guidance, and arriving at futility.

For these reasons I have much pleasure in supporting the resolution, in the hope that out of it something may come to help take up the slack and eliminate the waste which in my personal experience I have seen.


Joseph-Adéodat Blanchette


Mr. J. A. BLANCHETTE (Compton) (Translation):

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure

for me, while I deem it also my duty, to rise in this house in support of the resolution which has just been presented by the hon. member for Essex East (Mr. Martin). The hon. member deserves to be complimented for this 'resolution, and all those who will graciously support him will certainly also be worthy of praise.

I know that throughout Canada many young men have been unable to complete their studies on account of financial difficulties. You may rest assured, Mr. Speaker, that no expenditure, except perhaps the moneys voted for the relief of our unemployed, could ever be more useful than that which is anticipated for the purpose set forth in this resolution. Such a proposal would certainly be worthy at any time, but it is all the more deserving, coming as it does in a period of depression such as the one we are now experiencing. Many countries have enacted measures in support of this plan, and as Canada is a progressive country, I think it would be a step in the right direction, should this house declare itself unequivocally in favour of this proposition.

Lately, Japan, Germany and Russia have all acted along the same lines. In 1935, the United States enacted their National Youth Administration Act for the purpose not only

Scholarships-Mr. Blanchette

of subsidizing high school studies, but also of providing for the completion of their course by young students who, though needy, are nevertheless brilliant, conscientious and eager to succeed in the avocation for which they have been endowed with particular talent by the Divine Master.

In 1935, the United States voted over 25 million dollars for needy students, and while we should not always follow the lead of that country, we may without hesitation, in this case at least, accept the resolution presented by the hon. member for Essex East, with a view to granting deserving students some beneficial, and I shall even say necessary help.

If I may be permitted, however, to make a suggestion, I think that it would be advisable to point out that in the past too many students have chosen the professions, such as medicine and law, with the result that, today, these professions are overcrowded; from this it may be inferred that there have been too few who followed a scientific course.

Here is what one of our learned compatriots said in a lecture at Quebec, in 1880:

There is that rankling sore, the overcrowding of the professions, specially the liberal professions. It steadily swells the flow of intelligent young men, fed with latin and greek, who, when they leave our colleges and universities have to face the hideous spectre of misery and idleness. These conditions are a social menace that we must necessarily stem by creating new opportunities, by opening new avenues, and by directing, in any possible way, towards agriculture. industry, colonization, mechanics and all fields of human activity, even that of science, these energies which are eager for action and are lingering in inactivity.

That statement still applies to the present time, and the professions are more overcrowded than ever. In those circumstances our youth are justified to look elsewhere, particularly in the economic sphere. We must look toward the development of our natural resources, for there lies the secret of our future prosperity.

Between 1924 and 1930, 60 per cent of the 1,210 graduates who came out of our classical colleges insisted on further increasing the overwhelming number of doctors and lawyers, while less than 200 followed scientific pursuits.

I believe these figures will help to show that is in the interest of our students, at least for the time being, to turn toward other occupations than the so-called professions.

If our young men prepare themselves, sincerely and conscientiously, in their respective avocation, our country, vast as it is, will surely take notice of them.

Success is gauged according not to the wealth that one may acquire, but to one's service to the community. However, neither

is excluded, end it is always well to remember that you cannot acquire leadership without earning it.

I consider it therefore my duty to support this resolution, and I trust that the hon. Minister of Finance (Mr. Dunning) will welcome it with his usual smile, a sincere smile, and that he will do his utmost to place this proposal among those which he supports.

I understand that there are only 72 bilingual members in this house, 59 of whom are from the province of Quebec, so you will allow me to resume in English the comments I have to offer on this resolution.

Mr. Speaker, I must congratulate the mover (Mr. Martin) and the seconder (Mr. Walsh) of the resolution which is one, I believe, that will receive the approval of all groups in this house.

It is to be regretted that it is not possible for us to get together more often on measures and resolutions presented in the house, especially when these are for the welfare of humanity which, after all, is the quintessence of government's raison d'etre.

The Old Age Pensions Act has been a godsend to many people well advanced in years. This act has made it possible for some to make the remaining years of their life a period of quietude and contentment never experienced before in many cases, and may this enjoyment reach into years of ripened old age as a fitting close to the useful lives which many of our aged have given to the development and progress of this country.

This resolution might be called, if I may be permitted the term, the corollary or complement of the Old Age Pensions Act, for if we recognize in a tangible form by the old age pension the services rendered us by our aged, can it not, therefore, be deduced that we should do all within our power to enhance and encourage the latent possibilities of our youthful talent, a talent which often cannot assert itself properly because of financial difficulties?

Especially is it fitting and proper that the resolution be introduced at this time, during a period of depression and financial anxiety such as the world has never before experienced.

I feel quite certain that each and every one of us knows of many cases in our respective constituencies where the carrying out of the spirit of this resolution by the government would be like manna from heaven. For my part I am cognizant of many cases of young men and young women in my constituency who, because of financial embarrassments, could not finish their university courses.

Scholarships-Mr. Blanchette

Which would have needed in some instances only one or two more years of study to complete, in order to equip these young people for life's journey.

I know of other cases also, as all of us do, of young boys and girls whose talents need only to be developed and nurtured, but the inability of whose parents to give them a course of studies which would make these youths assets of no mean value to their community, their province and their country, has resulted in the stifling of their youthful hopes. We always have too much mediocrity in any given country, and as a converse we always have too few intellectuals.

It has been estimated that in round figures

100.000 boys and girls leave school annually before the age of eighteen, and that about

2.000 boys enter our universities annually. Of these about three per cent have the brilliant qualities to make outstanding leaders, and granted that these 2,000 will finish their university course, we therefore turn out about 60 young men annually destined for leadership.

From the above figures, therefore, it may logically be deduced that we have 3,000 young men annually who are potential leaders but who are unable to finish their studies-and this to the detriment of their self-assertion, and to the detriment of this country.

Russia is now spending an average of $400000,000 yearly in scientifically educating leaders for the development of her industries and commerce.

Japan not only educates thousands of her youth in her imperial universities, as has been said this afternoon, at the expense of the state, but spends $600,000 annually in sending three hundred of her most brilliant students to study new methods and ideas in foreign countries, and to bring these home for the benefit of her national development. In Great Britain there is in operation a system of scholarship whereby it is possible for any brilliant pupil to win his way, by means of scholarships, from the elementary school through the high schools and universities of the country, the funds being supplied by the government of Great Britain, Germany, France and Italy are doing likewise.

In the United States college enrolment dropped ten per cent between 1932 and 1934. In order to compensate for this curtailment, in June, 1935, the United States founded the National Youth Administration, which copes with the situation by coming to the assistance of students who have already made their mark in scholarship, but who are unable to continue studies owing to financial difficulties.

In a survey reported to the office of education in connection with the National Youth Administration, it was revealed that in ninety-nine institutions, approximately fifty-five per cent of the college age students received an average of A or B. There were two factors responsible for this scholastic superiority: first, the students had been selected on the basis of good scholarship, and, second, the students selected to receive federal assistance not only desired a college education but were of the conscientious type who made the most of the opportunities given them. The primary qualification of students so selected should be their needs as to financial assistance required, good character, and the possession of such ability as to give assurance of their doing good scholastic work.

I quote from a report of a subcommittee on American vocational guidance, on child health protection:

Scholarships for the young are the result of an effort to give these young people a square deal. They are an output to assure to young people that equality of opportunity.

Such a resolution, if carried out, would remove from the labour market a large number of job applicants who could be advantageously absorbed in the field of education to the betterment of the community and the country. Our future students who must make important decisions concerning social and economic problems in the future, cannot be too well prepared and this resolution would reduce the financial hardships that are limiting the educational careers of many students.

After July 31, 1936, the United States spent for the National Youth Administration as follows: students. $9,569,949; college age, $13,448,132; graduate age, $979,289, or a total of approximately $24,000,000. After May 26, 1936, the National Youth Administration helped the American youth as follows: 7,000 graduate students, on an average of $25 to $30 a month, to help their way through;

133,000 college students earning a maximum average of $15 a month to help meet expenses of college education; 269,500 high school students earning up to $6 a month through government assistance to pay for carfares, lunches and text-books.

What country offers a better laboratory, as it were, than Canada as a vast field for our youth to work in, to study and to solve its varied problems? We have many major problems peculiar to Canada, arising from climatic conditions, wide areas of scattered population, geological formations, mineral deposits, water power possibilities, forest areas drought areas.

Scholarships-Mr. Mallette

The depression has also created social and economic problems unheard of before, many of which have been beyond the scope of the present generation, and what a splendid opportunity there is for our youth to profit by our experience, as important as it has been to a certain extent, to remedy the ills which we all wish and strive to see banished from our confines.

There is nothing that we like better than to pick out sure winners, and as this resolution calls for the choice of the elite among our financially embarrassed students, it assures us that our moneys will be well spent, on subjects who have already proved their mental fabric as well as their moral and physical fibre. No money would be better spent in Canada than that diverted towards the carrying out of the resolution by the government. We are subsidizing movements having in view the bettering and development of agriculture, and it would appear to me that the amelioration and the advancement of our youth take precedence over any material development which we might conceive of, or favour. The progress of any country is in the genius, the happiness and the enterprise of its people. The past five years of depression have destroyed much of this wealth. It behooves each and every one of us to do our utmost to revitalize it, as it were, in these three sources and there is no surer method of doing this than in carrying out the tenets embodied in this resolution.

In conclusion, permit me to state that I am heartily in favour of the resolution and I believe that no legislation which could be passed at this time by any government would be received with more general support, approval, satisfaction and commendation than that presented by the hon. member for Essex East (Mr. Martin).


Joseph Léon Vital Mallette


Mr. VITAL MALLETTE (Jacques-Cartier):

Before dealing with the motion so ably presented by the hon. member for Essex East (Mr. Martin), I wish to express a word of commendation of the hon. member for Mount Royal (Mr. Walsh), especially with reference to two subjects which he treated this afternoon. In the first place, when he spoke of proposed help to the university of Montreal by trying to interest the provincial authorities in cooperating with the Department of Labour by means of public works to be carried out this year or next, he referred to something which I had in mind, and I shall be glad indeed to support any movement in that direction.

The second point to which I wish to refer relates to his reference to the satisfactory operation of the school systems in the province of Quebec. I may illustrate that by an anecdote concerning an incident in which I took part. I mention it not for the sake of publicity but to show how well we in lower Canada who live in towns where the population is bilingual get along with our friends and neighbours who speak a different tongue and practise a different religion. Some thirteen years ago, when I was mayor of my own town, the Protestant school commission in a neighbouring town decided to erect a new school house. The school house was duly built and was ready for the school term. The commission thought there should be a ceremony of official opening, and for that purpose they invited the mayor of the town, himself Englishspeaking and Protestant, to perform the ceremony. For some reason he did not turn up, and when the time came to pronounce the school formally open, the school commissioners got together and said, "What Shall we do? The mayor is not here." One of them suggested, "Let us ask the mayor of the next town who is present. He is French, a Catholic and a Liberal, but he certainly will not mind opening our school." I accepted the invitation, performed the ceremony and pronounced the school well and truly open, and it has been prosperous ever since. I mention that to show how we get along in lower Canada, because we believe in the bonne entente for the benefit of Canada.

In the life of a country, in its everyday life, there are some moral factors which I am afraid do not receive all the attention they deserve. People have to devote so much time to the daily struggle for existence that they are forcibly compelled to neglect some moral values, and among these moral values education is very often the first victim. Where is there a larger loss to any country than that caused by lack of opportunity, in thousands of cases to young men and young women of talent, who cannot find waj's and means of completing their studies? And to my mind the completion of studies does not necessarily mean a university degree; it applies just as well to the young mechanic trying hard to learn a trade and to the young girl seeking the knowledge that will help her honourably to earn a living should she be compelled to work, or to perfect herself in any career of her own choosing.

The loss to Canada from that source is incalculable. It must be appalling. It is utterly impossible to figure it out in terms of money, just as it is impossible to calculate the awful anguish and anxiety suffered by those ambitious and generous young people when they find themselves obliged to give up their studies through lack of money.

Scholarships-Mr. Mallelte

And what can be said about the state of mind of the parents? They endure the same sufferings as their children. Often their sole ambition was to have their children properly educated, and if they cannot realize it they feel they have not done their duty towards their children, and that single thought is sufficient to spoil their peace of mind and render them very unhappy.

And right here, sir, let me return to another aspect of the case, the position of the educators. Teaching is a self-denying profession. The rate of remuneration is, in many instances, lamentable. Our colleagues from the west, early in the session, told us of the plight of teachers in the western provinces. I cannot claim that it is any better in the rural districts of Quebec. May I quote from Le Devoir of February 20, 1937, something that appears on page 3. The report is to the effect 'that Mr. Albini Paquette, secretary of the province and Minister of Health, promised at a meeting of the association of Catholic female teachers, held in Quebec city on February 19, that at this session of the legislature he would introduce a law by which these female teachers would be assured of a minimum salary of $300 a year. I need not comment on that.

Here I want to pay a public tribute to the members of the religious teaching orders. Thousands of men and women, members of religious orders, are teaching in Canada, without regard to pay, actuated only by their confidence in God and the love of their fellow men. I cannot find terms to express adequately the debt of the nation to all our educators lay and religious, and any study of the question is incomplete when it overlooks teachers of all ranks.

It is suggested that scholarships be established by the dominion government. There is already quite a number of endowed scholarships at our universities. The province of Quebec, for years, has awarded scholarships which permit some students from that province to pursue their studies in other Canadian universities or abroad. If anything is done by this government in connection with scholarships, I suggest that special attention should be given to a plan that would permit Canadian students, if they wish to do so, to study at universities other than those in their own provinces. This is a vast country; it takes a whole week by the fastest train to cross from east to west, and it is impossible for most of us to get fully acquainted with other provinces. Time and money as usual are the obstacles. If anything is done to help young men and women in their respective professions to learn more about other provinces, I

'Mr. Mallette.]

think we shall have done something towards building up Canada as a nation. Such scholarships-I am speaking of the province of Quebec-are open, I understand, to all, with special consideration to pupils whose families are in difficult circumstances. I do not contend that the system works to perfection, but it has given excellent results in various professions and in the arts as well.

In the discussion of Monday evening on the estimates for the Royal Military College we were reminded that under the British North America Act the control of education had been left to the provinces. The provinces are justly jealous of their rights and are opposed to centralization. On the other hand, so far they have not shown any tendency to refuse grants from the dominion government. In any event it appears to me that any plan under the proposed resolution would have to be worked out in cooperation with the provincial authorities and might consist of special grants, thereby giving every province an opportunity to apply them along the lines they consider best in accordance with their particular genius and their particular ideals. The fact that this involves cooperation with the provinces does not in itself present insuperable difficulties. Roads are a provincial concern; yet the dominion is cooperating with the provinces in the construction of the trans-Canada highway. The provinces have departments of health and so has the dominion government. The provinces have departments of agriculture, and so has the dominion government. Many other similar instances could undoubtedly be cited.

The question of scholarships could, at any rate, be discussed with the educational authorities of the various provinces. Their points of view necessarily have to be obtained and duly considered, because they would not care for any infringement of their rights in regard to education. If this resolution is adopted, it might be brought before the next dominion-provincial conference. The resolution is deserving of serious consideration. It represents idealism in its highest form, service to others for the benefit of the state. It expresses a noble sentiment. It is both humanitarian and patriotic. I hope it will lead to constructive results.


Major James William Coldwell

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. M. J. OOLDWELL (Rosetown-Biggar):

I do not want to speak at length but I would express on my own behalf and on behalf of the group with which I am associated our support and appreciation of this resolution. The ground has been well covered as to the reasons why the government and people of Canada should consider a system of national scholarships. I do not know whether the

Scholarships-Mr. Coldwell

mover is aware of the fact that it is by a peculiarly happy coincidence that this resolution should be moved in the middle of the week that has been set aside as education week in Canada.

The idea of scholarships is not at all new A great deal has been said this afternoon about the scholarships in the old land, the scholarships with which I was familiar when I was a boy and later when I was at college there. After all, when we look backward down the long avenues of time; particularly, may I say, when we look into the pages of British history, we find that many of the scholarships and many of the schools in which they are now given originated in mediaeval times, which some people call the dark ages, but which, when we look into them, were not in many respects so very dark after all. There you found the threefold system of education of chivalry, monastery and guild, and if these gave a somewhat lopsided education, nevertheless we can find a great deal of inspiration in such mediaeval movements. In my association with boys and girls throughout the years I have witnessed again and again the tragedy of youth potentially able to absorb education and to develop, being denied the opportunity owing to lack of means. Perhaps our greatest waste in Canada is not the material waste but the intellectual waste so involved. And since this resolution tends to concentrate attention upon the problem, it is justified at this time.

Several times to-day mention has been made of the appropriation for the Royal Military College. That is a precedent which we might well keep in mind. When we consider that we are able to find approximately $360,000 to educate 200 boys in that institution we might well consider setting up for the same amount of money 1.200 scholarships of $300 each to look after some of the underprivileged boys and girls who are deserving of educational opportunities.

Of course I regard higher education as essential to the public good. In fact never in our history did we need a more widespread knowledge of affairs than we do now. For after all, higher education should produce that breadth of mind, that vision, that ability to size a situation up more or less accurately, which seems tragically lacking in these days of difficulty and stress. And when we look at the recent records of our institutions of higher education we find that although traditionally conservative-I use the word in its dictionary sense-they have displayed an unusual amount of progressive leadership in the past few years. It is astonishing to many ithat in the old university of Oxford, for

example, we find some of the most progressive thinkers and writers in the English-speaking world. That is all to the good. The more we can place our youth in contact with ideas and ideals, the more we can develop their ability to think, the healthier and the better will the nation be. It is almost platitudinous I know to repeat a remark made at the close of the war by one of the prophets of our time, Mr. H. G. Wells. He said that we were about to witness a race between education and catastrophe. I think that has been borne out in the days that have followed, and I am afraid that catastrophe is far in the lead.

I do not wish to go into the tragic circumstances of the schools in some parts of Canada; I did that on a former occasion. But I do feel, as the hon. member for Essex East (Mr. Martin) felt, that if we are to keep pace with other progressive nations we have to develop immediately our educational institutions and facilities. I further believe that this will have to be done on a national scale. We have to avoid interference with the provincial educational systems; we have to avoid interference with the rights of minorities, or in some parts even of majorities, but nevertheless we have to expand our facilities for the acquisition of knowledge, and I believe that must be done under some more nearly national system of education.

On behalf of the group with which I am associated I congratulate the mover, the seconder, and all the others who have spoken to this resolution. The debate has been an excellent one, and coming as it has after a hectic week, it has provided I think for all of us something of a relief. On behalf of this group I want to express appreciation of and support for the resolution.

Hon. NORMAN McL. ROGERS (Minister of Labour): I believe that the house is

indebted both to the mover of this resolution (Mr. Martin) and to others who have taken part in the discussion. The subject is one of exceptional interest, an interest which unquestionably has been accentuated owing to the difficult years through which we have been passing. Perhaps as one who was himself a teacher and who, like others in this house, has profited from scholarships, I may claim a peculiar concern in this matter.

In offering my congratulations to the mover of the resolution I would add this further observation: as I heard him I wished that he could have delivered the same address, with the same zeal and conviction, in provincial legislatures throughout this dominion. I also wished that he might have delivered it, if he will permit me to say so, at the

Scholarships-Mr. Rogers

annual meetings of many of our large industrial corporations. He has suggested that this resolution should not be considered in any narrow way. I agree with him entirely in that. The question of jurisdiction cannot be altogether avoided. At the same time it would be an evasion of the issue to say that there is any insuperable constitutional obstacle in the way of a grant from the dominion government for this purpose. Nevertheless we are obliged to consider priorities of obligation in connection with the different governments in Canada. And it seems to me that we cannot avoid the question of financial responsibility for the provision of scholarships. Should this obligation be assumed by the universities themselves? To some degree the obligation of providing scholarships has been assumed by universities throughout Canada, as in other countries. But I am far from suggesting that the provision of scholarships by universities has been at all adequate. I believe very strongly that universities in this country could do more than they have done in the way of making scholarships available to graduates of our high schools.

The question also arises as to the assumption of at least a portion of this obligation by individuals and corporations. I am not certain that throughout the discussion enough emphasis has been laid upon that feature of the problem. We are all aware of the fact that in the United States particularly there are educational endowments, established in some oases by individuals and in some by corporations, which have made available large sums of money either for research or for the provision of post graduate scholarships. It has often seemed to me that we in this country have not kept pace with that movement. For example I recall that a strong supporter of national scholarships spoke to me some time ago and told me of a conversation he had had with the head of a large life insurance company in Canada. He said that the head of this large insurance company welcomed the proposal for national scholarships, particularly on the ground that it would provide insurance companies with a larger number of well equipped students in higher mathematics who might become actuaries.

My immediate response to that situation was this: These large life insurance companies in Canada ought to assume at least a part of the obligation to establish scholarships in their special field. I do not think it at all unreasonable that great corporations which have an increasing need for trained

students should of themselves establish scholarships, particularly in those branches of study and research relating to their own activities. Personally I should like to see such a development take place in Canada. I am quite aware of the fact that it is said on behalf of some of those corporations that their by-laws do not permit the use of their funds for such purposes. On the other hand there is scarcely a large corporation in the country that does not spend large amounts for advertising purposes. For my own part I cannot think of a better method of advertising on the part of many of these corporations than through the establishment of scholarships of this land.

I am not going to suggest that the field of education is one which can be clearly defined and restricted for all time. I am very glad indeed that the mover of the resolution himself recognized that the dominion government had made certain important contributions in the direction suggested by the resolution. I should like to. bring to the attention of the house what has been done through the National Research Council in recent years. During the nineteen years ending March 31, 1936, the National Research Council has awarded 344 bursaries, 244 studentships and 97 fellowships. These 685 awards were held by 401 persons in nineteen departments of science at twelve Canadian universities. Of these grantees 371 have secured the degree of M.A. or M.Sc. and 260 the degree of Ph.D. I agree with the mover of the resolution that much more could be done in that direction. I will not dispute with him that more has been done in other countries. As I said at the beginning, it is very largely a matter of determining priorities of obligation. The National Research Council, I may say, is now giving further attention to the whole question of scholarships and fellowships, and the provision that has been made for the present year is somewhat in excess of that made for last year.

In considering our obligations, particularly at this time, I do not believe we can ignore the primary obligation we have towards those younger people who are now unemployed. As members of the house will be aware, the speech from the throne contained an explicit reference to measures which would be undertaken for the reestablishment of unemployed young people. I feel quite certain that at this time members of this house and the country generally would feel that this type of assistance should have priority over any far-reaching change in the existing establishment of studentships and fellowships by the National Research Council.

Scholarships-Mr. Hay hurst

I feel that the mover of the resolution has served a very useful purpose in bringing this matter to the attention of the house. I can assure him that the National Research Council is giving careful attention to this whole matter. It does seem to me that the question is one which in its very nature requires the utmost cooperation between governments before there should be any departure from existing policy. I have not raised explicitly the question of provincial jurisdiction, but at the same time I think the dominion government would be in a vastly better position in relation to this proposal if it had been adduced by any of those who have supported the resolution that provincial governments of their own initiative had established either undergraduate or postgraduate scholarships on a substantial scale. The government of Quebec, I believe, is somewhat of an exception in that regard, and some of the provinces that have provincial universities have made a beginning in that direction. So that while the resolution cannot be accepted in its precise terms I can assure the mover that the question is one which has received and is receiving consideration.


William Hayhurst

Social Credit

Mr. WILLIAM HAYHURST (Vegreville):

Mr. Speaker, as has been said before, the debate this afternoon has been on an exceedingly high plane, and on behalf of this group I should like to congratulate all hon. members who have spoken. The hon. member for Essex East (Mr. Martin), who introduced the resolution, certainly covered the ground thoroughly, and the Minister of Labour (Mr. Rogers), who has just spoken, has shown that there are factors which make this question more a provincial than a federal matter. But that does not necessarily mean that we should not discuss this question here in order to bring home to the people of Canada the significance and importance of the question which we are facing to-day.

Long ago it was said by a great Greek philosopher that there was no royal road to learning, and in the study of history we find that sometimes the more knowledge people possessed-I am speaking of book knowledge -the more they beclouded or covered up their philosophy with verbosity in their efforts to hoodwink the people. Thus at various periods we have had what we call the worship of books instead of the use of books and the use of real knowledge.

It has been said in this house that the chief trouble is lack of money, and that is so. In the homes of the people who raise large families there is not sufficient money to prepare their children to meet the battle of

life as we have to meet it to-day. I have in my hand an educational magazine issued in the province from which I come. On the cover of that magazine are a few words by Mr. J. W. Studebaker, commissioner of education in the United States, which I should like to read:

When Leonardo da Yinei completed his painting on the wall of the old monastery, he called the monks in to view it. They fell to discussing the beautiful colourings of the tablecloth. Impulsively the great artist took his brush and in their presence dashed it across the tablecloth. Turning to the monks, lie said in substance: "I brought you to look upon the face of the Master and you see only the cloth which I had painted upon the table."

I sometimes wonder if in our profession we do not need a da Vinci to dash his brush across some of the "educational tablecloths" and help us to see more clearly the child.

Organizations, techniques, methods, buildings, equipment-all of these and many more are essential to educational progress and we must devote our thought and energy to their study and use. They are the tools-the implements- for promoting educational progress. All of these implements must fit into their place in the picture, but with the child always and ever as the centre of interest.

The Minister of Labour showed, in substance, that among educated people unemployment is probably greater than among any other class. Many professional workers of all kinds are unemployed. In most European countries the authorities have recognized the importance of this problem of unemployment among professional workers, and a variety of measures have been adopted with the object of increasing their opportunities.

Whilst I am not speaking against the resolution, yet I feel that a broader vision must be developed. The hon. member for Rose-town-Biggar (Mr. Coldwell) referred to a statement by H. G. Wells to the effect that if we do not employ a better system of education we must face catastrophe. It is my view that the whole field of education must receive some attention at the hands not only of the dominion government but of the provincial governments as well, so that we may not be able to say, "0 education, what crimes have been committed in thy name!"

Higher education for children in large families must take up an excessive portion of income. It is much to be hoped in the interests of international efficiency and the equalizing of opportunity for the highest education, that the income limits may be generally raised. All young people should be educated to the limit of their capacities, and those who cannot afford to educate themselves, and are worthy of the monetary outlay, should receive some form of scholarship.

Scholarships-Mr. Hayhurst

In that respect I may add I am not speaking entirely in favour of academic education as it is generally understood to-day. We realize that technical skill, the skill required in household economy and other subjects of a practical kind, are just as important as the skill required in the so-called classical subjects.

Youth itself is seeking further advantages, and lack of employment is keeping the young people at school. If these young people were being educated along the line of scientific research and in fields where their knowledge will be required upon completion of their courses, much would be done to solve the present problem of professional unemployment. It is well known that colleges and universities have continued to turn out graduates trained for professional and technical occupations much faster than they could be absorbed, thereby adding to the number of unemployed. Odd jobs for professional workers are fewer and farther between than in the cases of other workers.

The problem of the professional and technical worker has received much less attention in Canada than in most other countries. The evolution of technical methods and customs undermined the demand for their services in the same way that the development of automatic machinery limited the jobs of manual workers. The effect of the development of mechanical music upon employment among musicians is well known.

In connection with the defence estimates which we were discussing Monday and yesterday, it was evident that we should develop an air consciousness in our people. This could readily be done by the development of our commercial airways. It is quite evident to-day that travel is as cheap, as efficient and as comfortable by air as by any other way. However, the railways as at present conducted are not a paying proposition, and more competition from airways would render the payment of dividends upon the investment in railways still less likely. Consequently members of the house persistently think in terms of communication as we have it to-day instead of in terms of the efficiency that could be developed by the technological improvements now available for our use.

We should regard education as a continuous adjustment of the individual to life, which means more and more an adjustment to make proper use of leisure time. People must have the right aspirations so that they will have something specific to think about. It has been said that England's greatest battles have been won on her playing fields; it might also be said that Canada's greatest battles will be won

in her class rooms. Mr. Speaker, it is six o'clock.


At six o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order. Thursday, February 25, 1937

February 24, 1937