February 24, 1937

SC

Mr. ELLIOTT (Kindersley):

Social Credit

1. What amount of stock of the Canadian National Railways and subsidiary companies is held by: (a) the public; (b) financial companies; (c) in Canada; and (d) outside of Canada?

2. What is the annual interest, rate of the different issues, and total annual payments?

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS-STOCK ISSUES
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LIB

Mr. HOWE: (Minister of Transport)

Liberal

1. As set forth on pages 31 and 32 of the printed report of the Canadian National Railways for 1935, the capital stocks of railways comprising the Canadian National system amount to $464,755,279.03, of which amount $4,584,225 is owned by the public and the remainder by the government either directly or beneficially.

The amount owned by the public represents minority shares of certain subsidiary companies which shares were not acquired when control of such companies was obtained many years ago by the Canadian Northern and Grand Trunk companies. No dividends are at present being earned on any of the share capital.

2. With regard to debenture stocks and bonds (the funded debt of the system) full particulars, as at December 31, 1935, are shown on pages 27 and 28 of the 1935 annual report

Questions

of the railway. That statement indicates the issuing company, the date of the issue, the date of maturity, the principal outstanding, and the annual interest accrual; also the issues guaranteed by dominion and provincial governments.

It is impossible to say where and by whom these securities are held, as the greater part are in bearer form and the railway company has no record of the holders.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS-STOCK ISSUES
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FARMING POPULATION-INCOME TAX

CON

Mr. HYNDMAN:

Conservative (1867-1942)

1. How many residents in Canada are engaged in farming at the present time?

2. How many farm owners are there in Canada at the present time?

3. How much revenue did the government receive on account of income tax paid by farmers for the year 1935?

4. How many farmers paid income tax for the year 1935?

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   FARMING POPULATION-INCOME TAX
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LIB

Mr. RINFRET: (Secretary of State of Canada)

Liberal

1. On June 1, 1931, 1,128,154 residents of Canada were employed in agriculture.

2. On June 1, 1931, 583,706 farmers owned their farms and 67,942 farmers owned part and rented part of their farms.

3. Fiscal year 1935-36, $46,609.35.

4. Fiscal year 1935-36, 694.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   FARMING POPULATION-INCOME TAX
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QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS

INDIAN RESERVES SURRENDERED

SC

Mr. NEEDHAM:

Social Credit

1. Have any Indian bands surrendered their reserves?

2. If so, how many and for what cause?

3. What benefit, if any, accrued to each Indian band as a result of such surrender?

4. Can an Indian band surrender part of a reserve without surrendering the whole?

Topic:   QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS
Subtopic:   INDIAN RESERVES SURRENDERED
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UNEMPLOYMENT RELIEF-LOAN8 TO PROVINCES

LIB

Mr. MAYBANK:

Liberal

1. In each of the fiscal years ending 1933, 1934, 1935, 1936, were loans made by the dominion government to any provincial government for helping said provincial government with its relief problems?

2. If so, what amounts to each, year by year, were lent?

3. Was interest payable on such loans by such provinces?

4. If so, what amount of interest was payable

by each province, year by year, for money so advanced? ,

5. Have all provinces paid such interest on such loans? If not, what provinces have paid and what amount each year?

6. What amounts are owing by any province

for such moneys advanced to them: (a) for

principal: (b) foT interest?

Topic:   QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS
Subtopic:   UNEMPLOYMENT RELIEF-LOAN8 TO PROVINCES
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MOTION FOR PAPERS

DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORT EMPLOYEES- ST. LAWRENCE RIVER

LIB

James Angus MacKinnon

Liberal

Mr. MacKINNON (for Mr. Gariepy):

For a return showing:

A list containing the names, occupations and domiciles of the individuals employed by the Department of Transport during 1936 on the St. Lawrence river, for navigation purposes or works of different kind or nature.

Topic:   MOTION FOR PAPERS
Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORT EMPLOYEES- ST. LAWRENCE RIVER
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LIB

Clarence Decatur Howe (Minister of Transport)

Liberal

Mr. HOWE:

This is another omnibus

question that entails an almost impossible amount of work. It involves going back over the files for many years. I think the motion should be dropped.

Motion dropped.

Topic:   MOTION FOR PAPERS
Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORT EMPLOYEES- ST. LAWRENCE RIVER
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NATIONAL SCHOLARSHIPS

PROVISION FOR ACADEMIC AND TECHNICAL TRAINING OF OUTSTANDING STUDENTS FINANCIALLY UNABLE TO CONTINUE THEIR EDUCATION

LIB

Paul Joseph James Martin

Liberal

Mr. PAUL MARTIN (Essex East) moved:

Whereas the important industrial nations of the world are spending large sums annually in scholarship systems, to ensure that the most brilliant of their boys and girls may not be prevented because of a lack of financial resources, from securing adequate academic training to enable them to take their proper place as thoroughly* trained leaders in the industrial, professional and public life of their respective countries;

And whereas in this age of scientific advance in all walks of life Canada cannot afford to longer ignore and lose the tremendous asset which it possesses in the latent ability for trained leadership of the brightest of her young people;

Therefore be it resolved,-That, in the opinion of this house, following the practice already established in Great Britain and other industrial countries, the government should investigate the desirability of a system of national scholarships to be made available to outstanding students who are financially unable to continue their education, to enable them to secure undergraduate and (or) post-graduate training in our universities, university colleges, agricultural colleges and technical schools.

He said: Mr. Speaker, no one is more

persuaded of the limitations of this resolution and of some of the technical difficulties involved than I am. I feel, however, that in asking the government to investigate the desirability of setting up a system of national scholarships I am not being inconsistent in leaving details, which for the moment cannot be decided in general discussion, to the body which, I trust, will be set up for the purpose of considering the principle behind the proposal.

Scholarships-Mr. Martin

May I say, even though it be at the expense of laying myself open to the charge of boyish frankness, that one satisfaction I have in bringing this resolution before the house is that it is the realization of an ambition which began at a time when a scholarship would have been of very great assistance. If for no other purpose than to confirm the judgment of those who gave assistance to me, I sincerely trust that in the proposal I am making there will be some compensation to these individuals.

I do not propose to spend much time in drawing attention to the obvious plight of men and women of my generation, and of the young people of generations following mine, in Canada. That must be taken as selfevident. But it is important to note that the young people of this country, as of most countries to-day, are actuated by a fear of dislocation of their own possibilities because of economic conditions for which they are not responsible. Many young men and women with special aptitudes are denied the opportunity of proceeding in courses commensurate with their abilities and their desires to make some achievement for the national welfare.

While I do not think any hon. member, whether he be of a younger or an older generation, is not fully alive to this need, I venture to suggest that possibly younger members who have recently come to this chamber can approach the problem with greater freshness and vitality. To-day we talk, sometimes with alarm, sometimes perhaps imprudently, of the spread of ideas that are inconsistent with and contradictory to the basis of the civilization which all of us in the western world know best. I simply suggest this, that if we are to ward off the encroachment of ideas that are alien to principles which I believe every hon. member will accept, that must be done, not by condemning the evils or the imperfections of a particular economic thesis suggested, but by offering something that will adequately meet the needs which are felt by so many young men and young women in this dominion. One cannot emphasize that too much. I am not suggesting that through an acceptance of the principle of national scholarships there will nowhere be adherence to communism. I am not suggesting that those who receive scholarships under this system will possess in themselves guaranteed assurances of a contribution to the state. But what I say is that, according to the law of averages, if this privilege were accorded to young men and women who now have not the means of

proceeding to agricultural colleges, to technical institutions, to the universities, there will be a substantial number of those selected who certainly will more than justify any expense or any violation of principle involved in the acceptance of the proposal I have in mind.

I suggest that there can be only one effective argument against the proposal for a system of national scholarships. Leaving aside for the time being the problem we have in this country by reason of the fact that education, under the British North America Act, is within the exclusive jurisdiction of the provinces, I believe, the only effective argument is that which suggests it is not the function of the state to make the provision which is proposed in this resolution. I am prepared to meet that argument. I hope that those who take issue with me will not base their objections on grounds of cost, or of spoon-feeding; those are self-evident; I am sure any number of hon. members may be assumed to have them in mind. As regards the functions of the state, may I simply say that no man who is alive to the currents of his own day, no man who knows the course of history, will deny the ever-present law of change, or, if you will, evolution from one form of society to another. I do not believe I am giving expression to anything inconsistent with my own political principles when I say that the stage through which we are passing is one which indicates that more and more the state will be called upon to intervene and engage in new activities. This means an era of socialization, or whatever one may wish to call it. That seems to be a tendency which no thinking man or woman can deny. That being the case, having in mind that in Canada we have always recognized that it is an obligation of the state, or more particularly a function of the provinces, to provide educational facilities for our citizens, I think we have to go one step further and to realize that if we are charged with the responsibility of education we ought also to be charged with the responsibility of seeing that those who are properly qualified are given the education.

In suggesting the two objects behind this resolution, I use the language of the consultative committee of the Board of Education in Great Britain in 1916 when it made its report to the Minister of Education, who in return introduced a bill for furthering a program of national scholarships in the United Kingdom. The first object is the training of men and women according to their capacity so that they may serve public ends in the manner for which they are best fitted, the

Scholarships-Mr. Martin

reward of merit and the encouragement of learning being subsidiary to this purpose; the second is the provision of equal opportunity, so far as this is consistent with the best use of the means at our disposal. An analysis of these two objects will reveal, first of all, that if democracy is to be preserved-and we boastingly refer to our desire to have it preserved-we should be consistent and realize that the basis of democracy must be education. This does not mean that equality of opportunity in education involves extending to every citizen the same measure of education, but it does mean the selection, within the democracy, of men who are best fitted for a particular pursuit or a particular function.

In 1925 Lord Eustace Percy, speaking in the British House of Commons as Minister of Education, laid down a principle which I think must challenge every existing democracy. He said that the time had passed when we must look upon democracy as meaning that education must be distributed to all sorts of people; rather, he said, children must be trained for the station to which, not by birth but by natural capacity, they properly belong. Why? Because, as we face problems in this house from day to day, every hon. member must feel, as I do in proper humility, the immensity and the difficulties of the many questions with which we have to deal. These problems are becoming more and more complex, and the problem of government in the future will gradually shift. I do not believe this house will lose its definite relation to these problems, but gradually the problems will call for examination in detail by others outside parliament, and it will be left for members of this chamber and other responsible bodies to pass upon the judgment of those servants of the state who by training are particularly qualified to make suggestions to the government of the country. While it may be disarming to a good many of us, I think we have to abandon the idea that every member of parliament is a potential prime minister. That is not the case, and we have to use the brain power which providence has given us in this country as in others, in the same measure as we use the agencies of the state in the development of our natural resources, in the surveys that are made, in agriculture, in mining and in all other branches of our economy. I believe that if we in Canada have risen to a high standard of prosperity, this is largely in spite of ourselves, largely because of conditions which were not present in many other countries that deliberately planned a course of action.

Pfr. Martin.]

Let me discuss this difficulty, the perfectly obvious one-that this is a provincial matter. The other night the leader of the opposition (Mr. Bennett), speaking on the estimates in connection with the Royal Military College, quite properly pointed out the reasons why the federal government could legally and constitutionally extend . to the Royal Military College the grant it does. It is because that comes properly within one of the specific phases of jurisdiction accorded to the dominion government. It is true, as I said a moment ago, that education under the British North America Act was specifically and exclusively reserved to the provinces; but the term "exclusively" surely does not mean that the federal arm of government cannot extend to the provinces, by way of supplemental assistance, measures which properly come within the provincial sphere. If there should be disagreement with that statement, we have the precedent of our National Research Council scholarships, and if we want a further precedent, we have the grants in aid in respect of technical education, pursuant to the Technical Education Act of 1919. I am not particularly concerned in what form the federal government assists in furthering this proposal, but I am interested in having substantially the desired results, and if they are to be brought about by grants in aid to the provinces, definitely earmarked for that purpose. I do not see that there will be much to object to in the method.

I fully realize that a resolution of this kind will meet with a certain amount of natural opposition, for it is difficult for us to take, as we should do, the long view, which in the long run is the short view. We cannot calculate in terms of months or even of a year the benefits that accrue from, what we do in this house; it is in the long term of time that the good we do in this house really becomes effective or apparent. I suggest that the story behind the rivalry in the field of commerce and industry, with Germany on the one hand and Great Britain on the other, presents one of the greatest romances and one that vitally affects the proposal which I am now discussing.

I should like for a moment to go back to the Napoleonic period, when Great Britain was the first, in fact the only power, to develop mechanical industry and to use science for practical ends on a large scale. In the same period Great Britain had a monopoly of ocean navigation to practically all the markets outside the western world. In those countries w-here European civilization was not accepted Great Britain was the chief buyer and seller. Of what was that the product?

Scholarships-Mr. Martin

It was the product of a spontaneous effort on the part of industry, unrelated to science, unrelated to the universities, unrelated to knowledge in the sense in which we understand these terms to-day. There was no public system for the encouragement of industry, commerce or agriculture, or of any other phase of Great Britain's economy. The universities lived in self-contained units. There was no relation between the university towns and commerce and industry; in fact, the university man was reluctant to take any part in the business world, for it was not regarded as proper to his function or his training. Likewise, in industry, every firm was jealous of its own secrets and of its own prowess and record. It was unwilling to disclose these to other firms and it would have no relations with science or the universities. Well, as long as this British monopoly prevailed, the common sense of Englishmen sufficed. Just about the time Cavour was bringing about unification in Italy, unification came about in Germany; in 1S70 there came about the formation of the German state, based upon the Bismarckian philosophy, and England found her rival, a rivalry based not upon spontaneous effort but upon the coordination of all branches of German economy; industry, the college, the university, the agricultural school and government were all harnessed together in one cooperative enterprise in the name of the state to try to secure for Germany the ascendancy that was already England's. By that method of rationalization, by the encouragement given to research, by help given to poor scholars, by industry cooperating with government, Germany rose to a position where she seriously rivalled and imperilled the ascendancy of England. That effort of Germany has been duplicated in other countries. This rationalization, or coordination of forces, represents what can be done if the state will only try to coordinate all these agencies which can be utilized to make of the state what it became in Germany.

The scholarship system I have in mind is not novel; it is something that goes back even to the beginnings of Greek culture. In the form of which I am now speaking I suppose its beginnings were in the time of Henry VI when he, along with others, endowed schools providing opportunities for poor scholars. That system has been carried on in Great Britain ever since. The Education Act of 1852 in England, at a time when there was no acceptance of the view that it was the function of the state to administer matters of education, nevertheless extended further provision for assistance to poor scholars. In the Education Act of 1907, amending the act of

1902, further provision was made for a program of national scholarships. And not only that act but what has been done since that time in England should be an example to us. During the great war, when the nation was concentrating its forces upon the successful prosecution of the war, the Department of Education, acting upon a minute of council, began to investigate once again the question of scholarships. This was done because in the words of the committee that set about making the examination, no time could be lost in developing to the utmost the resources of the best of England's brain Dower. In 1916 this committee made a recommendation to the board of education for an increase in the number of scholarships. Again in 1925 under Lord Eustace Percy another committee, this time a commission, made an investigation recommending still further increases, and this in a country where private endowments are greater than in any other country in the world. It may be argued, however, that the case of England is not applicable here, that England is a unitary state. The constitutional difficulty in connection with education does not exist there as it does here. But the principle is the important point. The fact is that His Majesty's government in the United Kingdom have realized that it is the function of the state to select from its citizens those who, having special intellectual attainments and ability, but lacking financial resources, should be given the opportunity of proceeding to higher education along the lines designated.

What is happening in England, what happened in Germany has been followed in other countries- Take Japan. One hundred years ago Japan could not in any particular begin to rival the industrialization of any western country; yet within seventy years she has been able, by the same coordination of effort and utilization of her brain power, to reach almost the point of equality in commercial and industrial rivalry with most of the countries of the western world. How was that done? It was not done by industry refusing to cooperate with universities or with the state in these matters. It was, as in the case of Germany, the result of coordination of effort on the part of industry and the universities-and when I use the term "university," I include technical schools and agricultural colleges. Any hon. member who has studied in Europe or the United States will remember that there is no exclusion of Japanese representation from their universities. The Japanese government annually since 1904 has been sending hundreds of its

Scholarships-Mr. Martin

under which young farmers could have received this additional training, the problem in connection with the growing of corn in Essex county and western Ontario in general might have been greatly minimized by this time. Sometimes we face these problems without any consciousness of the real difficulties involved or of what the problems really are, and an adequate knowledge of these matters can be acquired only over a period of time and by a considerable amount of study.

Topic:   NATIONAL SCHOLARSHIPS
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR ACADEMIC AND TECHNICAL TRAINING OF OUTSTANDING STUDENTS FINANCIALLY UNABLE TO CONTINUE THEIR EDUCATION
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LIB

Frederick George Sanderson (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Liberal

Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER:

Order. I

regret to interrupt the hon. member, but his time is up.

Topic:   NATIONAL SCHOLARSHIPS
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR ACADEMIC AND TECHNICAL TRAINING OF OUTSTANDING STUDENTS FINANCIALLY UNABLE TO CONTINUE THEIR EDUCATION
Permalink
?

Some hon. MEMBERS:

Go on.

Topic:   NATIONAL SCHOLARSHIPS
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR ACADEMIC AND TECHNICAL TRAINING OF OUTSTANDING STUDENTS FINANCIALLY UNABLE TO CONTINUE THEIR EDUCATION
Permalink
LIB

Paul Joseph James Martin

Liberal

Mr. MARTIN:

I am in the hands of the house.

Topic:   NATIONAL SCHOLARSHIPS
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR ACADEMIC AND TECHNICAL TRAINING OF OUTSTANDING STUDENTS FINANCIALLY UNABLE TO CONTINUE THEIR EDUCATION
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February 24, 1937