February 4, 1937

CCF

James Shaver Woodsworth

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. WOODSWORTH:

I have no objection to that. My point is that I was one of those who opposed conscription. It was not so easy for me as I was living in an Englishspeaking community, a community made up of people of Anglo-Saxon, stock. However, I did so and now it seems to me I have the right to hope that the French-Canadians wfho opposed conscription at that time will resist increases in armaments. I am trying to do what I can, so far as the western provinces are concerned, to prevent such increases.

The Minister of Justice confesses that war means revolution, and yet he urges that we prepare for war. If we are prepared for war and war comes, surely we cannot be said to have tried to avoid the path which inevitably will lead to revolution. He asserts that it takes two to make peace, but may I suggest to him that it is equally true that it takes two to make war. However, he did not say that.

Foreign Policy-Mr. Woodsworth

Topic:   FOREIGN EOLICY
Subtopic:   PROPOSED STATEMENT OF PRINCIPLES TO APPLY IN RESPECT OF WAR, THE CAUSES OF WAR, AND WAR MUNITIONS OR MATERIALS
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LIB

Ian Alistair Mackenzie (Minister of National Defence)

Liberal

Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver):

It takes only one to make war.

Topic:   FOREIGN EOLICY
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CON

Richard Bedford Bennett (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BENNETT:

There must be someone to make war against.

Topic:   FOREIGN EOLICY
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CCF

James Shaver Woodsworth

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. WOODSWORTH:

If that is the logic of the Minister of National Defence (Mr. Mackenzie), then it is about on a par with that of the Minister of Justice.

Topic:   FOREIGN EOLICY
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LIB

Ian Alistair Mackenzie (Minister of National Defence)

Liberal

Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver):

A very good par; better than yours.

Topic:   FOREIGN EOLICY
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CCF

James Shaver Woodsworth

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. WOODSWORTH:

The Minister of

Justice said that he wished I had referred to Stalin as well as to Mussolini and Hitler. I referred to Germany and Italy and Japan, all of which are outside the league. The U.S.S.R. is inside the league and to that degree is committed to the principles of collective security. I had always thought that the Minister of Justice fought fair, but I suggest that such a reference as that is not fair. I shall have no hesitation in saying in the future what I have said in the past with regard to my attitude towards soviet Russia, but I do not think it is quite fair to bring that country into a discussion where it had no place and where it had not been mentioned.

As I listened to the minister it seemed to me that either he had the jitters or he wanted to give the jitters to the Canadian people. He tells us that the world has gone mad; he talks about gangsters and thieves and so on, but that was the very kind of talk we had before the great war in order to whip the people of Canada into a war fever. We heard of the beast of Berlin and the huns and all that sort of thing. The minister was saying that which is sometimes said to children, "the goblins will get you if you don't watch out." To him the world is full of goblins.

Topic:   FOREIGN EOLICY
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LIB

Ernest Lapointe (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Liberal

Mr. LAPOINTE (Quebec East):

And there are some in the house.

Topic:   FOREIGN EOLICY
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CCF

James Shaver Woodsworth

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. WOODSWORTH:

The minister deprecates any talk about our foreign policy, and he concludes by saying, "sufficient to the day is the evil thereof." He tells us that a wise man will leave these things alone. I once more point out that this government is proposing a very heavy increase in armaments. If it is sufficient to wait until the evil day, why are they anticipating that evil day by preparing in this way? Surely it would be far more sensible for us definitely to face the whole situation and devise a foreign policy; then if it is considered that our foreign policy requires armaments, I suppose the

government will have to provide them. If he will permit me to say so, I think it is downright nonsense for the Minister of Justice to tell us that we ought not to consider anything in connection with our foreign policy, that sufficient to the day is the evil thereof!

The government proposes a very heavy armaments program. Let me remind the house and the country that that will mean very heavy additional taxation. Worse than that, it offers no hope of security. It is the same old game again. We were told the last war had been fought to end war. Instead of that, it may be simply a prelude to a greater war. Canada, it would seem, is to follow the lead of the European nations. There are hundreds of thousands of people who came to this country from the old lands in order to escape the burdens of militarism. They came to a country where they thought they might have permanent peace, and yet we are preparing to follow methods which in Europe have proved to be absolutely futile.

Topic:   FOREIGN EOLICY
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?

An hon. MEMBER:

A lot of those people should have been deported.

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CCF

James Shaver Woodsworth

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. WOODSWORTH:

The minister's speech was undoubtedly one of passion, but it was full of contradictions.

When the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) spoke the other day, he admitted very frankly, and I was glad to have his admission, that war settles nothing. I remember a striking statement made in the Winnipeg Free Press in 1920:

This is the point to which the great war carried the convictions of civilized society-

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?

An hon. MEMBER:

That was the Winnipeg strike.

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CCF

James Shaver Woodsworth

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. WOODSWORTH:

-that war is not only a horror in itself, but that it is a total failure; that it "settles" nothing; that it ruins the victor as well as the vanquished.

That stands out, to me, as one of the great lessons of the last war. I ask again, as I asked the other day, is there no other way? When the hon. member for Winnipeg South (Mr. Mutch) alluded to the disillusionment that had been experienced by many men who were at the front, I was reminded of some very bitter words by Jerome K. Jerome:

I have to admit that for nearly four years I held opinions which I now find to have been an illusion. I clung to ideals which I now find to have been false.

We were told that England was fighting to obtain a "righteous peace." I am learning now what "righteous peace" means. It means that when you've got your enemy down, the more you jump on him the more righteous you feel. . . .

560 COMMON'S

Foreign Policy-Mr. Woodsworth

I am learning what a "peace of reconciliation" means. It means that when you've persuaded your enemy to lay down his arms on certain terms, and on condition of the fulfilment of certain pledges, you then proceed to break every one of those pledges, and leave him to reconcile himself to his own folly. . . .

Wilson's oft-repeated assertion that America entered the war to make the world "safe for democracy" should rightly be interpreted "safe from democracy," since the iron heel of militarism is set down wherever democracy dares to lift its head.

These words are unfortunately only too true. We have sown the wind and we are reaping the whirlwind, but we are not going to prevent that whirlwind by sowing more wind.

The Prime Minister-most unfortunately, 1 think, because he is the head of this nation- really offered us no alternative to the present method of settlement. He proceeds to prepare for wrar.

I thought the Prime Minister had a rather curious idea of Christian ethics. If the other fellow is an angel of light, treat him decently. If you do not think him an angel of light, then treat him as you would the devil. That was practically his suggestion. I sometimes wonder why those who think this way do not come out frankly and repudiate the teachings of Jesus. This is a letter which I came across the other day in the Vancouver Sun:

No, we cannot function on dreams. This is a cold-blooded, practical world, with great nations hungering for land, and all the utopian theories of the C.C.F. of Canada will not change it.

Jesus of Nazareth said "Turn the other cheek," and they harpooned him on a cross, and basically human nature hasn't altered, let there be no illusions about that.

The teaching is evident. We must avoid doing anything that would bring disaster upon us.

Topic:   FOREIGN EOLICY
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LIB

James Lorimer Ilsley (Minister of National Revenue)

Liberal

Mr. ILSLEY:

Will the hon. gentleman permit a question?

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CCF

James Shaver Woodsworth

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. WOODSWORTH:

Jesus is held up as a horrible example.

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LIB

James Lorimer Ilsley (Minister of National Revenue)

Liberal

Mr. ILSLEY:

Does the hon. gentleman believe that self-defence is ever justified?

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CCF

James Shaver Woodsworth

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. WOODSWORTH:

I am not going into what is at the moment a purely academic question. I would suggest that not all members or leaders in the church take the position that the Prime Minister did. This is a resolution from the Alberta conference of the United church, 1936.

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LIB

William Alexander Fraser

Liberal

Mr. PRASER:

What has that to do with the question?

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CCF

James Shaver Woodsworth

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. WOODSWORTH (Reading):

Your committee would recommend re-affirmation of our unalterable opposition to all

war, and particularly in view of the suggestions promulgated by the federal minister of defence that we must have a defensive force sufficiently strong to deal with subversive elements within our borders, and to repel any attacks from without. We would also utter our emphatic protest against the increased military appropriations by the federal government now in session, for cadet and other military purposes.

That conference had not heard of the recently announced action of the government, to provide greatly increased military appropriations.

The Prime Minister frankly said that he does not expect patriotism in munitions manufactures. He said, as reported at page 247 of Hansard:

Of one thing I am perfectly sure; no manufacturer of munitions will engage in that business for the sake of charity.

I think that is a significant admission. The hon. member for Winnipeg South Centre (Mr. Maybank) was right when he protested against people talking about the soldiers going to the front for SI.10 a day. Most of them went because they thought that the

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LIB

Ralph Maybank

Liberal

Mr. MAYBANK:

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, the member for Winnipeg South Centre made no such remark.

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?

An hon. MEMBER:

The hon. gentleman means the member for Winnipeg South.

Topic:   FOREIGN EOLICY
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February 4, 1937