April 22, 1936

LIB

Jean-François Pouliot

Liberal

Mr. POULIOT:

I do not insist upon it,

but if I raise a point of order it is because an hon. gentleman the other day said that I was an expert on points of order. One thing more. The rulings of the chair in the last five years, and the legislation passed in -the last five years cannot be cited as a precedent; it is all wrong.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   NATIONAL HARBOURS BOARD
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISION FOR ADMINISTRATION AND CONTROL OF PUBLIC HARBOURS
Permalink
CON

George Halsey Perley

Conservative (1867-1942)

Sir GEORGE PERLEY:

There is no

reason in the world why we should not go on with the bill, but I do not think it should

be passed until the department of transport has been set up. I do not see how you can pass a bill referring matters to the minister of transport when there is not a minister of transport. But there is no reason why we should not go on with the bill.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   NATIONAL HARBOURS BOARD
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISION FOR ADMINISTRATION AND CONTROL OF PUBLIC HARBOURS
Permalink
SC

Charles Edward Johnston

Social Credit

The CHAIRMAN (Mr. Johnston, Lake Centre):

The section having to do with the

minister of transport was allowed to stand.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   NATIONAL HARBOURS BOARD
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISION FOR ADMINISTRATION AND CONTROL OF PUBLIC HARBOURS
Permalink
CON

George Halsey Perley

Conservative (1867-1942)

Sir GEORGE PERLEY:

The minister is

making light of the suggestion put forward by the hon. member for St. Lawrence-St. George. The minister said that many evils had grown up in the administration of the harbours; he went into that fully and used some extreme language. I can see in this clause, however, nothing that alters at all the situation in regard to patronage. Personally I am glad that he has brought down the bill if its terms are made Satisfactory to everyone. I think something was needed to alter the administration of the harbours and to put them into a more businesslike shape.

But let me submit this to the minister as far as patronage goes, and that is one of the evils to which he referred last night. It is one of the things which, we know, have happened through the years, the difficulties in regard to the employment of persons by the harbour commissions, the manner in which they are to be selected, and the right claimed by members in constituencies in which there are harbours to name the persons to be appointed. There is in the proposal now before us nothing whatever that changes that situation in any way. If, as I assume, the minister is desirous of bettering the administration of -the harbours in respect of patronage, there should be a different arrangement from that which is proposed in this section, because as far as I am able to visualize it the position in connection with the appointment of persons in the different harbours will be exactly the same as it has been in the past. I know the difficulties that exist, but I urge the minister to consider the position in which he will place himself. As Minister of Transport administering the canals, if he has to appoint an engineer on one of these canals he must go to the civil service commission. I see no harm in that; it has been working out very well. On the other hand, if he wants an engineer in the harbour of Vancouver or in Saint John he can appoint that man himself; that is to say, the man is appointed by the board which is under his direction and the minister does not have to go to the civil service commission at all. There is a small canal in the constituency of Argenteuil, which I have the honour to represent, and if a

National Harbours Board

lockmaster or lockman is needed there the civil service commission appoints him. A notice is put up in the post offices and along the canal, intimating that there is a vacancy; applications are made to the civil service commission and they make the appointment. I am not arguing now either for or against the wisdom of this method, but I would ask the minister why he thinks there should be any difference between the method followed in appointing engineers, clerks and so on in connection with these harbours and the method in connection with canals, which he will also be administering.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   NATIONAL HARBOURS BOARD
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISION FOR ADMINISTRATION AND CONTROL OF PUBLIC HARBOURS
Permalink
LIB

Clarence Decatur Howe (Minister of Marine; Minister of Railways and Canals)

Liberal

Mr. HOWE:

My hon. friend is an experienced business man. I would ask him to go back over his business experience and ask himself whether he would recommend the civil service commission as the proper agency in appointing men in connection with the various businesses of the ports-the grain elevator business, the cold storage business, the wharf and warehouse business, the terminal railway business, stevedoring and so on-or whether he would not consider it best to leave such appointments to the business heads of enormous undertakings of this kind, allowing them to keep the personnel up to the mark by giving them the power of dismissal for wrong-doing.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   NATIONAL HARBOURS BOARD
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISION FOR ADMINISTRATION AND CONTROL OF PUBLIC HARBOURS
Permalink
CON

George Halsey Perley

Conservative (1867-1942)

Sir GEORGE PERLEY:

The minister

makes a fair argument, and in a business I might be administering I should certainly wish to control the appointments myself. But if he were administering the business of an elevator he would not have a member of parliament coming to him and saying that he wanted certain people appointed; the minister would have that in his own hands. The point I am making is this: Is there not any way in which he can improve the position as far as patronage is concerned, with respect to the people who will work for the board, because pressure will be there exactly the same as it has been? I understood from what the minister said previously that his purpose in bringing down this legislation was to try to better the condition of affairs in the harbours and to see that patronage was eliminated as much as possible.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   NATIONAL HARBOURS BOARD
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISION FOR ADMINISTRATION AND CONTROL OF PUBLIC HARBOURS
Permalink
CON

Charles Hazlitt Cahan

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. CAHAN:

"Change the system" were the words.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   NATIONAL HARBOURS BOARD
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISION FOR ADMINISTRATION AND CONTROL OF PUBLIC HARBOURS
Permalink
CON

George Halsey Perley

Conservative (1867-1942)

Sir GEORGE PERLEY:

Yes, change the system in order to eliminate patronage, and try to have this business conducted as the minister would conduct it if it were his own private concern.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   NATIONAL HARBOURS BOARD
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISION FOR ADMINISTRATION AND CONTROL OF PUBLIC HARBOURS
Permalink
LIB

Robert Emmett Finn

Liberal

Mr. FINN:

I am surprised at hon. gentlemen opposite. Every hon. member knows that the Gibb report was in the hands of the

previous government-and I regret that the right hon. leader of the opposition is not in his seat at the moment-and that the report was pigeonholed so that it did not see the light of day until the present administration came into office. I desire to say to my hon. friends opposite and particularly to the exSecretary of State (Mr. Cahan), who comes from my own province, that the harbour commissions were established in 1928, and in 19'30 we had an election. The Liberal party went out of office; the Conservative party came in, and the late government, led by the present right lion, leader of the opposition, dismissed every employee of the Halifax harbour commission, from engineers down to the men who swept the docks, with the exception of three or four employees.

Mr. ST-PERE: The situation was the same in Montreal.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   NATIONAL HARBOURS BOARD
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISION FOR ADMINISTRATION AND CONTROL OF PUBLIC HARBOURS
Permalink
LIB

Robert Emmett Finn

Liberal

Mr. FINN:

The chairman of the Halifax board was a gentleman whom the ex-Secretary of State knows very well, but during the five years hon. gentlemen opposite were in office they did not dare to bring down legislation implementing the Gibb report. Prior to the election of 1935 all employees of the Halifax harbour commission, from the chairman down to the humblest employee, were told what they had to do. They went out and worked for the Conservative party and did all they could to defeat my colleague and myself. Hon. gentlemen opposite speak of patronage. They had it for five years and their party grew rich because of it. If I wished to make some other statements to this committee this afternoon I think some other hon. gentlemen who sit opposite would be out of the house just now, as the right hon. leader of the opposition is.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   NATIONAL HARBOURS BOARD
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISION FOR ADMINISTRATION AND CONTROL OF PUBLIC HARBOURS
Permalink
CON

William Allen Walsh

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. WALSH:

I rise to a point of order. I do not think the hon. member has any right to refer to any other hon. member in the terms he has used, or to make the suggestions he has made. I would ask tire hon. gentleman to withdraw his last statement.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   NATIONAL HARBOURS BOARD
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISION FOR ADMINISTRATION AND CONTROL OF PUBLIC HARBOURS
Permalink
LIB

Robert Emmett Finn

Liberal

Mr. FINN:

I simply said what I meant, Mr. Chairman, and I reiterate it, that when this-

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   NATIONAL HARBOURS BOARD
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISION FOR ADMINISTRATION AND CONTROL OF PUBLIC HARBOURS
Permalink
CON

William Allen Walsh

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. WALSH:

I raised a point of order, Mr. Chairman, and I ask for your ruling.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   NATIONAL HARBOURS BOARD
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISION FOR ADMINISTRATION AND CONTROL OF PUBLIC HARBOURS
Permalink
SC

Charles Edward Johnston

Social Credit

The CHAIRMAN (Mr. Johnston, Lake Centre):

I would ask my hon. friend to state first the point of order.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   NATIONAL HARBOURS BOARD
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISION FOR ADMINISTRATION AND CONTROL OF PUBLIC HARBOURS
Permalink
CON

William Allen Walsh

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. WALSH:

The hon. member stated that if he cared to make statements which he knew to be true some other hon. members

National Harbours Board

in this house at present would not be sitting in the house but would be absent, as the right hon. leader of the opposition is at the moment. That is a marked and unpleasant suggestion directed to certain hon. members.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   NATIONAL HARBOURS BOARD
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISION FOR ADMINISTRATION AND CONTROL OF PUBLIC HARBOURS
Permalink
?

An hon. MEMBER:

Face the music.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   NATIONAL HARBOURS BOARD
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISION FOR ADMINISTRATION AND CONTROL OF PUBLIC HARBOURS
Permalink
CON

William Allen Walsh

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. WALSH:

Face the music nothing; I do not think that is a fair and reasonable statement, and I think it is the duty of any hon. gentleman to withdraw a remark which casts a reflection upon any other hon. member. I ask my hon. friend from Halifax, as an hon. member who is held in general esteem, to withdraw the statement, or at least to make it plain that he is not casting any reflection upon any other hon. member.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   NATIONAL HARBOURS BOARD
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISION FOR ADMINISTRATION AND CONTROL OF PUBLIC HARBOURS
Permalink
LIB

Robert Emmett Finn

Liberal

Mr. FINN:

I desire to say to my hon.

friend that my statement stands, unless I am ordered by the chairman to withdraw it. I said nothing in reference to any hon. gentleman opposite, except that if I should make some statements perhaps some other hon. gentlemen would not be here in the house, not because they were directly interested but because my remarks would not be euphonious to their ears.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   NATIONAL HARBOURS BOARD
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISION FOR ADMINISTRATION AND CONTROL OF PUBLIC HARBOURS
Permalink
CON

William Allen Walsh

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. WALSH:

Then is the ruling that the

statements are in order, Mr. Chairman?

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   NATIONAL HARBOURS BOARD
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISION FOR ADMINISTRATION AND CONTROL OF PUBLIC HARBOURS
Permalink
CON

George Halsey Perley

Conservative (1867-1942)

Sir GEORGE PERLEY:

I am sure, Mr. Chairman, you will rule that the hon. gentleman should not make any insinuations against any hon. member. I think that is all you need to do.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   NATIONAL HARBOURS BOARD
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISION FOR ADMINISTRATION AND CONTROL OF PUBLIC HARBOURS
Permalink

April 22, 1936