February 25, 1936

CON

Mark Cecil Senn

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. SENN:

The children of white missionaries. They are not receiving any tuition simply because the band funds are not available, the government grant is not available and the county in which they reside is not willing to pay for their tuition.

Topic:   ANALYSIS OF CONCESSIONS GRANTED TO CANADA BASED ON UNITED STATES IMPORTS FROM CANADA-CALENDAK YEAR, 1929
Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR
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LIB

Thomas Alexander Crerar (Minister of Immigration and Colonization; Minister of Mines; Minister of the Interior; Superintendent-General of Indian Affairs)

Liberal

Mr. CRERAR:

May I ask how many children are involved?

Topic:   ANALYSIS OF CONCESSIONS GRANTED TO CANADA BASED ON UNITED STATES IMPORTS FROM CANADA-CALENDAK YEAR, 1929
Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR
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CON

Mark Cecil Senn

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. SENN:

Only two that I have knowledge of. There are two missionaries in that

Supply-Indian Affairs

reservation. The matter was brought to my attention some two or three years ago. I cannot say now just how many children there might be, two or three anyway.

Topic:   ANALYSIS OF CONCESSIONS GRANTED TO CANADA BASED ON UNITED STATES IMPORTS FROM CANADA-CALENDAK YEAR, 1929
Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR
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LIB

Thomas Alexander Crerar (Minister of Immigration and Colonization; Minister of Mines; Minister of the Interior; Superintendent-General of Indian Affairs)

Liberal

Mr. CRERAR:

I shall be glad to have my officials look into that matter and give me a report on it.

Topic:   ANALYSIS OF CONCESSIONS GRANTED TO CANADA BASED ON UNITED STATES IMPORTS FROM CANADA-CALENDAK YEAR, 1929
Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR
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CON

Howard Charles Green

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. GREEN:

What is the approximate

number of whites engaged in this work with the Indians, and what are the types of work?

Topic:   ANALYSIS OF CONCESSIONS GRANTED TO CANADA BASED ON UNITED STATES IMPORTS FROM CANADA-CALENDAK YEAR, 1929
Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR
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LIB

Thomas Alexander Crerar (Minister of Immigration and Colonization; Minister of Mines; Minister of the Interior; Superintendent-General of Indian Affairs)

Liberal

Mr. CRERAR:

I assume the hon. member means in the total administration in Canada?

Topic:   ANALYSIS OF CONCESSIONS GRANTED TO CANADA BASED ON UNITED STATES IMPORTS FROM CANADA-CALENDAK YEAR, 1929
Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR
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CON

Howard Charles Green

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. GREEN:

Yes.

Topic:   ANALYSIS OF CONCESSIONS GRANTED TO CANADA BASED ON UNITED STATES IMPORTS FROM CANADA-CALENDAK YEAR, 1929
Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR
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LIB

Thomas Alexander Crerar (Minister of Immigration and Colonization; Minister of Mines; Minister of the Interior; Superintendent-General of Indian Affairs)

Liberal

Mr. CRERAR:

Between 900 and 1,000

regular employees, I am informed. That includes teachers.

Topic:   ANALYSIS OF CONCESSIONS GRANTED TO CANADA BASED ON UNITED STATES IMPORTS FROM CANADA-CALENDAK YEAR, 1929
Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR
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CON

Howard Charles Green

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. GREEN:

And the types of work they do?

Topic:   ANALYSIS OF CONCESSIONS GRANTED TO CANADA BASED ON UNITED STATES IMPORTS FROM CANADA-CALENDAK YEAR, 1929
Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR
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LIB

Thomas Alexander Crerar (Minister of Immigration and Colonization; Minister of Mines; Minister of the Interior; Superintendent-General of Indian Affairs)

Liberal

Mr. CRERAR:

They vary. Some are

doctors, some nurses, some school teachers, some farm instructors, some Indian agents supervising the reserve they have charge of, and I daresay there are several other categories if I could think of them.

Topic:   ANALYSIS OF CONCESSIONS GRANTED TO CANADA BASED ON UNITED STATES IMPORTS FROM CANADA-CALENDAK YEAR, 1929
Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR
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CON

Alfred Johnson Brooks

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BROOKS:

Is there any system of compulsory education for Indian children? I notice that a good many Indian families wander about the country during the school year and the children do not seem to be at school.

Topic:   ANALYSIS OF CONCESSIONS GRANTED TO CANADA BASED ON UNITED STATES IMPORTS FROM CANADA-CALENDAK YEAR, 1929
Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR
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LIB

Thomas Alexander Crerar (Minister of Immigration and Colonization; Minister of Mines; Minister of the Interior; Superintendent-General of Indian Affairs)

Liberal

Mr. CRERAR:

My deputy informs me that the Indian Act provides for a measure of compulsion in regard to the education of Indian children, to what extent I regret I am not at the moment able to say. But the fact that the Indian population in Canada is roughly 112,000, and that more than 16,000 Indian children are attending school, is, I think, a pretty fair indication that their educational needs are not suffering badly.

Topic:   ANALYSIS OF CONCESSIONS GRANTED TO CANADA BASED ON UNITED STATES IMPORTS FROM CANADA-CALENDAK YEAR, 1929
Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR
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LIB

Donald Alexander McNiven

Liberal

Mr. McNIVEN (Regina):

Is any sum

provided in this vote for the new Indian school at Lebret and the new Indian hospital at Fort Qu'Appelle? Could the minister also tell us the cost of the new school at Lebret and also of the Indian hospital at Fort Qu'Appelle, for both the erection of the buildings and the furnishings? Further, I should like to know what accommodation there is at the new Indian school at Lebret and at the hospital at Fort Qu'Appelle.

Topic:   ANALYSIS OF CONCESSIONS GRANTED TO CANADA BASED ON UNITED STATES IMPORTS FROM CANADA-CALENDAK YEAR, 1929
Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR
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LIB

Thomas Alexander Crerar (Minister of Immigration and Colonization; Minister of Mines; Minister of the Interior; Superintendent-General of Indian Affairs)

Liberal

Mr. CRERAR:

I am informed that the school cost approximately $200,000 and the hospital building approximately S100,000. In

addition to that sum a further amount will be required for the hospital to equip it with beds and blankets and the sort of things that are required in a hospital.

Topic:   ANALYSIS OF CONCESSIONS GRANTED TO CANADA BASED ON UNITED STATES IMPORTS FROM CANADA-CALENDAK YEAR, 1929
Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR
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LIB

Donald Alexander McNiven

Liberal

Mr. McNIVEN (Regina):

What accommodation is there for pupils in new Indian schools at Lebret, Saskatchewan?

Topic:   ANALYSIS OF CONCESSIONS GRANTED TO CANADA BASED ON UNITED STATES IMPORTS FROM CANADA-CALENDAK YEAR, 1929
Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR
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LIB

Thomas Alexander Crerar (Minister of Immigration and Colonization; Minister of Mines; Minister of the Interior; Superintendent-General of Indian Affairs)

Liberal

Mr. CRERAR:

Accommodation for 250 children.

Topic:   ANALYSIS OF CONCESSIONS GRANTED TO CANADA BASED ON UNITED STATES IMPORTS FROM CANADA-CALENDAK YEAR, 1929
Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR
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LIB

Donald Alexander McNiven

Liberal

Mr. McNIVEN (Regina):

How many are there now?

Topic:   ANALYSIS OF CONCESSIONS GRANTED TO CANADA BASED ON UNITED STATES IMPORTS FROM CANADA-CALENDAK YEAR, 1929
Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR
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LIB

Thomas Alexander Crerar (Minister of Immigration and Colonization; Minister of Mines; Minister of the Interior; Superintendent-General of Indian Affairs)

Liberal

Mr. CRERAR:

The new school is not opened yet.

Mr. WOOD1: I was not expecting that this vote would be considered to-night. I am sorry I have not before me the information I should have liked to present concerning the Six Nations Indians who happen to reside in the constituency I have the honour to

represent. Of the 112,000 Indians in Canada

5,000 live in the reserve adjacent to the city of Brantford, and in the constituency ofBrant. In my view they should not beclassed with the average Indian of the dominion, when we learn that about thirty-three per cent of the Indians are on relief. From a conversation I had recently with the superintendent at Brantford I learned that of the 5,000 Indians in the Six Nations

reserve only eighty-one are on relief. That would seem to indicate that they are capable in the discharge of their duties and are able to take care of themselves. For those reasons they have advanced more than many others of the aborigines of the dominion.

I believe that until about three years ago they administered their own educational system, but for some reason or another that privilege was taken away from them. I have not been able to ascertain the reason. The department gave the excuse that they had appropriated the whole of the education of Indians on reserves, and that because of that they must take away from the Indians the administration of their schools. In passing may I observe that the Indians built their own schools from their own band funds, and prior to that time had contributed about half of the cost of their own education. They enjoy a reasonable amount of autonomy due to the fact that they elect their own council, and it seems to me it was most unfortunate that the Indians were deprived of a degree of autonomy which, by virtue of their advance, we had the right to encourage them to go further; we ought to give them more autonomy and more control over their affairs, in so far as they are able to manage them.

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In that way we shall make good citizens of them.

In the few moments I shall speak-and I shall not take too long-may I state that the Indians on the Six Nations reserve are in a somewhat different position from that of the average of the aborigines of Canada, because they compare very favourably with our United Empire Loyalists. An agreement was made between Captain Joseph brant and the British government whereby he w'ould extend his loyalty towards the British at the time of the American revolution. The loyalists were granted certain concessions if they would remain true to the British crown. They came to Canada and were granted a piece of land extending six miles on either side of the Grand river, from its mouth to its source. They did not need all that land and for that reason they sold a portion of it. The money was set aside and was held in trust in Canada as a trust fund for the maintenance of the Indians. This was a good business proposition, and I believe we have every reason to commend the Indians for their astuteness in having a bank account. I only wish the government had as good a bank account as have those Indians, because if that were so we would be in a much better position than we are in to-day. The matter upon which I am speaking has been a perennial subject. I believe my predecessor, Mr. Smoke, described conditions possibly better than I am in a position to do, because I know he has made a study of the subject. At the present time I am going through eighty-six pages of legal phraseology. So far I have gone only about half way through, but it has been my endeavour to learn the history oi the Six Nations Indians.

Topic:   ANALYSIS OF CONCESSIONS GRANTED TO CANADA BASED ON UNITED STATES IMPORTS FROM CANADA-CALENDAK YEAR, 1929
Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR
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CON

Richard Bedford Bennett (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BENNETT:

Read Mr. Smoke's speech and you will get the story.

Topic:   ANALYSIS OF CONCESSIONS GRANTED TO CANADA BASED ON UNITED STATES IMPORTS FROM CANADA-CALENDAK YEAR, 1929
Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR
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LIB

George Ernest Wood

Liberal

Mr. WOOD:

Yes, and I commend Mr. Smoke for his approach to the subject. Unfortunately I have not been able to get all the facts in the short time I have had at my disposal, but to the best of my ability I have endeavoured to do so in my own way. For that reason I shall not go into detail, because I do not wish to misplace the ancient characters, or to put them in a wrong light.

It seems, however, that about one hundred years ago a scheme knowm as the Grand river navigation project was devised. It was incorporated in 1832. Trustees were empowered to enter upon the crown lands, or the lands belonging to the Six Nations Indians, after making compensation. The funds belonging to these Indians were at that time held by trustees. In 1832 the Hon. J. H. Dunn, then

Receiver General of Upper Canada, had charge of the public moneys of the then province. He was an active exponent of the policy of canal construction, and held the office of president of the Welland Canal Company. The Grand River Navigation Company acted more or less as a subsidiary and was to supply the water to the Welland canal. By virtue of that arrangement the two companies worked together.

Mr. Dunn filled the further position of trustee of the Six Nations Indians. He appears to have taken a most active part in their money affairs. On April 3, 1834, an order in council was passed stating the Indians desired that their moneys invested in British funds should be transferred to Canada to be invested in provincial debentures or other government securities. I shall not go into details as to the ramifications of the charters or supplementary letters patent, in view of the various changes in the financial structure, but briefly I would state that they did get a promise from Sir John Colborne, the then Lieutenant Governor of Upper Canada, to assist them in an endeavour to form a company to permit trade in western Ontario via the Grand river. He was successful in getting sufficient interest among men who had money to invest to organize the company.

As time went on the Buffalo and Goderich line was built, which was another change that took place in the transportation system, thus impairing the possibilities of the Grand River Navigation Company. The competition of the railway would largely impair the possibilities of the canal. These men found that they were going to be left in a precarious position. For some reason, of which at the present time I am not aware, they wished to withdraw their obligations and pledge to Sir John Colborne and, to make a long story short, those who were responsible substituted the Indian funds to purchase stock, and put those funds into a precarious investment.

The association of the Receiver General with the Grand River Navigation Company placed the government in a rather unfortunate position, for it meant that they were investing funds which they held in trust for the Indians in a company in which some of them were personally interested. You will see, Mr. Chairman, that the security of the funds of the Six Nations Indians was thus jeopardized, and the Indians in consequence feel that they have been more or less exploited through this scheme of organizing a joint stock company and investing it in their funds which were held in trust for them by the government of the day. Whether the powers of a trust company had been defined at that time or not, it is

Supply-Indian Affairs

not lawful, as I understand the matter, for a trustee to invest in a joint stock company funds committed to his care.

It might be said that all this happened one hundred years ago and that we have no obligation to-day. While there may not be a legal obligation-and I cannot speak as to that-undoubtedly there is a moral obligation, and that moral obligation was incurred through the filching from the coffers of the Indians of this $160,000 of trust funds which belonged to the Six Nations. I do not say that this was done with dishonest intent; it might have been done with the intention of serving a good purpose, but the unfortunate point is that the money was held in trust for the Indians and the government had no right to invest it in a joint stock company.

Topic:   ANALYSIS OF CONCESSIONS GRANTED TO CANADA BASED ON UNITED STATES IMPORTS FROM CANADA-CALENDAK YEAR, 1929
Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR
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February 25, 1936