July 4, 1935

CON

Richard Bedford Bennett (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council; Secretary of State for External Affairs)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BENNETT:

I think we will disagree

with that amendment and we will prepare a message accordingly. The next is in line 29 and substitutes the word "designed" for "likely."

Topic:   COMBINES INVESTIGATION ACT
Subtopic:   CONCURRENCE IN CERTAIN SENATE AMENDMENTS AND NON-CONCURRENCE IN OTHERS
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LIB

William Lyon Mackenzie King (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Liberal

Mr. MACKENZIE KING:

The word

"designed" will necessitate proof of intention, and that is always difficult. As I recall the evidence before the price spreads commission, that was requested by the manufacturers' association but was not accepted oy the commission. The word "likely" was put in as not requiring the same measure of .proof of intention. My right hon. friend will see the force of that.

Topic:   COMBINES INVESTIGATION ACT
Subtopic:   CONCURRENCE IN CERTAIN SENATE AMENDMENTS AND NON-CONCURRENCE IN OTHERS
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CON

Richard Bedford Bennett (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council; Secretary of State for External Affairs)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BENNETT:

A thing may be likely

to operate and have the most innocent parties in the world behind it; therefore I think it should be designed to constitute that sort of offence.

Combines Investigation Act

Topic:   COMBINES INVESTIGATION ACT
Subtopic:   CONCURRENCE IN CERTAIN SENATE AMENDMENTS AND NON-CONCURRENCE IN OTHERS
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LIB

William Lyon Mackenzie King (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Liberal

Mr. MACKENZIE KING:

If you substitute the word "designed" you will have one of the most difficult of legal proofs to establish. To that extent you practically destroy one of the essential features of the measure. That ought to be looked into.

Topic:   COMBINES INVESTIGATION ACT
Subtopic:   CONCURRENCE IN CERTAIN SENATE AMENDMENTS AND NON-CONCURRENCE IN OTHERS
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CON

Richard Bedford Bennett (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council; Secretary of State for External Affairs)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BENNETT:

Topic:   COMBINES INVESTIGATION ACT
Subtopic:   CONCURRENCE IN CERTAIN SENATE AMENDMENTS AND NON-CONCURRENCE IN OTHERS
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LIB

William Lyon Mackenzie King (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Liberal

Mr. MACKENZIE KING:

When the bill was before the house the Minister of Justice (Mr. Guthrie) brought this amendment to the attention of the house but he said he would not press it. I took exception to it on the ground that a patent might be used for the purpose of creating a monopoly; I thought the public interest was more important than the interest of any person holding a patent right, and that the1 restricting of the definition in that way was a mistake.

Topic:   COMBINES INVESTIGATION ACT
Subtopic:   CONCURRENCE IN CERTAIN SENATE AMENDMENTS AND NON-CONCURRENCE IN OTHERS
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CON

Richard Bedford Bennett (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council; Secretary of State for External Affairs)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BENNETT:

We have an international convention with respect to patents which was signed in 1926 or 1928, and I am speaking subject to correction when I say that this merely gives effect to a provision in the international agreement signed at The Hague.

Topic:   COMBINES INVESTIGATION ACT
Subtopic:   CONCURRENCE IN CERTAIN SENATE AMENDMENTS AND NON-CONCURRENCE IN OTHERS
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LIB

William Lyon Mackenzie King (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Liberal

Mr. MACKENZIE KING:

Patent law is

a very special branch of the law, and I shall not venture to give a legal opinion upon this. But if this amendment is to permit the overriding of the public interest by virtue of a right under some patent held by a company, it should not be permitted.

Topic:   COMBINES INVESTIGATION ACT
Subtopic:   CONCURRENCE IN CERTAIN SENATE AMENDMENTS AND NON-CONCURRENCE IN OTHERS
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CON

Richard Bedford Bennett (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council; Secretary of State for External Affairs)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BENNETT:

Mr. Speaker, I hope you will excuse our dealing with this matter in this way rather than in committee. The right hon. gentleman will remember that I pointed out that the Patent Act contains provisions for the protection of the public interest where the patent is not worked or under various other contingencies. Our patent act largely follows

the English act, which was predicated upon the convention signed at The Hague. So far as this amendment is concerned I submit-again speaking subject to correction-that it is made to give effect to our international obligations and the public interests are amply protected by the provisions of the Patent Act. However, I shall look into the matter. The next amendment is to insert a new paragraph (b) reading as follows:

(b) to bring at once to the minister's attention every such application;

I think that is desirable. The next provides for the re-lettering of the paragraphs, and I do not believe there will be any objection to that. The next deals with line 32 and deletes the words "or is being formed." I think that amendment is proper. The same amendment is made in connection with lines 40 and 41 and lines 44 and 45. The next refers to page 4, line 8, and substitutes the word "therefor" for the word "thereof." The same amendment is made in line 11. I think those are proper. The next deals with line 37 and inserts the words "by the commission" after the word "believed."

Topic:   COMBINES INVESTIGATION ACT
Subtopic:   CONCURRENCE IN CERTAIN SENATE AMENDMENTS AND NON-CONCURRENCE IN OTHERS
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LIB

William Lyon Mackenzie King (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Liberal

Mr. MACKENZIE KING:

As I read that section it would mean that there could be no investigation until the commission in the first instance had made up its mind that there was a combine. As a matter of fact, the purpose of an investigation would be partly to establish whether or not there was a combine. As I read the section the commission would have to declare its belief before an investigation could take place, and it might be possible to defeat any inquiry at all.

Topic:   COMBINES INVESTIGATION ACT
Subtopic:   CONCURRENCE IN CERTAIN SENATE AMENDMENTS AND NON-CONCURRENCE IN OTHERS
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CON

Richard Bedford Bennett (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council; Secretary of State for External Affairs)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BENNETT:

The right hon. gentleman will remember that under the existing combines act there has to be some belief.

Topic:   COMBINES INVESTIGATION ACT
Subtopic:   CONCURRENCE IN CERTAIN SENATE AMENDMENTS AND NON-CONCURRENCE IN OTHERS
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LIB

William Lyon Mackenzie King (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Liberal

Mr. MACKENZIE KING:

A prima facie case.

Topic:   COMBINES INVESTIGATION ACT
Subtopic:   CONCURRENCE IN CERTAIN SENATE AMENDMENTS AND NON-CONCURRENCE IN OTHERS
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CON

Richard Bedford Bennett (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council; Secretary of State for External Affairs)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BENNETT:

Exactly. I think the extraordinary powers given to the commission would not make if unreasonable that it should authorize an inquiry.

Topic:   COMBINES INVESTIGATION ACT
Subtopic:   CONCURRENCE IN CERTAIN SENATE AMENDMENTS AND NON-CONCURRENCE IN OTHERS
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LIB

William Lyon Mackenzie King (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Liberal

Mr. MACKENZIE KING:

It will be interesting to see how it works cut.

Topic:   COMBINES INVESTIGATION ACT
Subtopic:   CONCURRENCE IN CERTAIN SENATE AMENDMENTS AND NON-CONCURRENCE IN OTHERS
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CON

Richard Bedford Bennett (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council; Secretary of State for External Affairs)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BENNETT:

The next amendment

deals with line 24' on page 5 and substitutes the word "directs" for "allows." I think that is correct.

Topic:   COMBINES INVESTIGATION ACT
Subtopic:   CONCURRENCE IN CERTAIN SENATE AMENDMENTS AND NON-CONCURRENCE IN OTHERS
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LIB

William Lyon Mackenzie King (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Liberal

Mr. MACKENZIE KING:

As I understand that section it will prevent documentary evidence which has been filed with the commission from being used againct. the persons who file the evidence at any trial which may ensue.

Combines Investigation Act

Take, for example, one of the coal companies which have been investigated'; if they had filed certain documents it would1 have effectively precluded the use of those documents at the trial. In that way it would be possible to thwart any attempt to bring such companies under the provisions of the act.

Topic:   COMBINES INVESTIGATION ACT
Subtopic:   CONCURRENCE IN CERTAIN SENATE AMENDMENTS AND NON-CONCURRENCE IN OTHERS
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CON

Richard Bedford Bennett (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council; Secretary of State for External Affairs)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BENNETT:

I do not think my right hon. friend has followed that section quite carefully. Read section 20 of the act:

All books, papers, records or things produced before the commission, whether voluntarily or in pursuance of an order, may be inspected by the commission and also by such persons as the commission directs, and copies thereof may be made by or at the instance of the commission.

That provides for copies being kept by the commission; it is not the section the hon. gentleman refers to. The next amendment is on page 6 in line 41. The words "oral evidence so given" are struck out and the words "evidence or documents so required" substituted. That is the usual provision giving effect to the Canada Evidence Act, that a man is not bound to convict himself. I think that is ail right. Now we come to one which is somewhat more difficult. On page 7, section 20, line 11, it is provided:

The commission at the conclusion of every investigation which they conduct shall make a report in writing and w'ithout delay transmit it to the minister. Such report shall set out fully the conclusions reached, the action, if any, taken, and any other material which may be required by regulation under this act.

Then is added a new subsection (2):

The commission shall at the same time deliver into the custody from whence they came, if not already delivered, all books, papers, records and other documents in its possession as evidence relating to the investigation. but before doing so the commission may extract from such documents and certify as true copies such relevant parts thereof as it may deem to be necessary for any purpose of this act, whereafter such parts, so certified, shall have and be accorded in all courts the same probative force as the equivalent parts of the originals of which they are copies.

I think that is a rather desirable provision to have. It enables the commission, when returning originals, to keep copies to meet the possibility of the originals being inadvertently lost, and to enable it to produce the copies at any trial that may take place. They have the same probative force as equivalent parts of the originals of which they are copies.

Topic:   COMBINES INVESTIGATION ACT
Subtopic:   CONCURRENCE IN CERTAIN SENATE AMENDMENTS AND NON-CONCURRENCE IN OTHERS
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LIB

William Lyon Mackenzie King (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Liberal

Mr. MACKENZIE KING:

That is all right.

Topic:   COMBINES INVESTIGATION ACT
Subtopic:   CONCURRENCE IN CERTAIN SENATE AMENDMENTS AND NON-CONCURRENCE IN OTHERS
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CON

Richard Bedford Bennett (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council; Secretary of State for External Affairs)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BENNETT:

There is no amendment on page 8 but on page 9 there are several:

27. Section forty-one of the said act is repealed and the following is substituted therefor:

41. The commission shall, annually, report to the minister its proceedings under this act and he shall lay such report before parliament if it be then sitting, and, if it be not then sitting, within the first fifteen days of its then next session.

That is perhaps a very desirable change. As section 28 they have added:

No person shall be charged with, tried for or convicted of an offence against this act, by the same information, upon the same evidence or at the same time as he is charged with, tried for or convicted of an offence against section four hundred and ninety-eight of the Criminal Code.

That is, I think, a proper section to have in a statute of this kind. Section 29 is:

This act shall come into force on the first day of October, 1935.

How we allowed it to go in the form we did I do not know, because it is not the proper form. I would move that the amendments other than the first amendment on page 1 and the second amendment on page 1 be read the second time and concurred in.

Topic:   COMBINES INVESTIGATION ACT
Subtopic:   CONCURRENCE IN CERTAIN SENATE AMENDMENTS AND NON-CONCURRENCE IN OTHERS
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LIB

James Layton Ralston

Liberal

Mr. RALSTON:

With regard' to the

definition of "combine," do I understand that the whole section 2 as it appears in the act is cut out and that the four line provision is substituted?

Topic:   COMBINES INVESTIGATION ACT
Subtopic:   CONCURRENCE IN CERTAIN SENATE AMENDMENTS AND NON-CONCURRENCE IN OTHERS
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July 4, 1935