May 27, 1935

CON

Robert James Manion (Minister of Railways and Canals)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MANION:

So far as the Canadian

National are concerned, they have kept their shops open a little longer than the Canadian Pacific shops have been open, and we all know that the dominion government, for the people of Canada, have been paying the deficits of those shops. The fact remains that these equipment companies, owned to a large extent by Canadian stockholders, are taxpayers and have thereby been assisting in keeping the shops open. I submit with all due respect to the statements made by the railway shop employees that the owners of these equipment companies as citizens of Canada and as taxpayers have rights also to consideration. I may put on record at this point that the two loans to the Canadian Pacific for keeping their shops open amounted to almost $2,500,000. One of the loans was in 1931 and the other in 1933. It is pointed out by Mr. Coleman in this letter-and he pointed it out verbally to me very emphatically-that if these equipment companies were forced into bankruptcy, as was suggested quite frankly by a deputation of shop men who waited on the hon. member for Argen-teuil (Sir George Perley) and me, these companies would then, as he states briefly in his letter, in case of urgency of need of equipment. be placed at the mercy of foreign, that is United States, equipment companies. Their

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Topic:   PUBLIC WORKS PROGRAM
Subtopic:   WORKS, 'UNDERTAKINGS AND GUARANTEE OP RAILWAY EQUIPMENT SECURITIES TO CREATE EMPLOYMENT
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CON

Thomas Cantley

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. CANTLEY:

Far be it from me to

appear to contradict the minister concerning the statement he made to the effect that the original proposal in regard to new equipment came from the private shops, but that statement I am sure is not quite correct. More than eighteen months ago I saw a memorandum prepared by officers of the Canadian National Railways calling for some 3,300 cars, among them 500 refrigerator cars, some general service cars, and two other types. So far as refrigerator service is concerned no type of railway traffic has increased as much in the last twenty years as has the refrigerator service. This increase is due to two factors, the increased movement of produce from the West Indies and from the Pacific coast, and the fresh fish trade both from the Atlantic and from the Pacific which has developed greatly during the last fifteen or twenty years. Much of the original refrigerator equipment is totally out of date; it is not fit for refrigerator work and is now used largely for the conveyance of potatoes and other agricultural products that have to be protected from the frost in the winter months.

There is no railway shop equipment to-day that can begin to compete with two or three of the private car-building plants in Canada. I say that with great deliberation, for I know the essential facts. Some twenty-two years ago we built the Eastern Car Company's plant in New Glasgow. The first order we executed was for 2,000 cars for the Grand Trunk Railway. Then came the war, and we undertook to supply 2,000 cars of the largest capacity ever produced in America, for the Russian government. These wr undertook to deliver on the tracks at Vladivostok. We fulfilled that contract, and within the specified date. Soon afterwards we undertook to supply 4,000 cars to the French government, and we put those cars over when great numbers of boats were being torpedoed, but we fulfilled our contract and so contributed very materially to the success of the allies in the war. When I say that no existing railway shops in Canada can compete with some of the shops I refer to, I know exactly what I am talking about. The Eastern Car Company have a plant at New Glasgow that cost $2,500,000. There is

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no similar car building equipment in Canada that will compare with it for turning out railway cars economically. That statement cannot be successfully contradicted. It may be in the interest of the railways to do a little repair work in their own shops from time to time to keep their organizations intact, but generally speaking the railway men of this country have been very well treated during the past four or five years. There are other .people in the country as deserving of being supplied with work as they are. That is all I have to say about the matter for the present.

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PRO

Agnes Campbell Macphail

Progressive

Miss MACPHAIL:

For a few .minutes I wish to discuss some railway equipment and service that is required by agriculturists, particularly the stockmen. For a long time I think we have known but did not like to admit that the railways were losing traffic to the trucks. That has been increasingly true in the last few years. There are I think three reasons why the trucks are taking more live stock traffic from the railways each year. One is that the truck picks up the stock at the farm. Particularly if people live a long way from the station this service is appreciated. It is expensive for the farmers, yet that has not prevented them from using trucks, because this service means much to them, particularly now when it is hardly safe-in fact I think it is not now legal in Ontario-to drive live stock on the highways. It is very difficult for farmers who are at a distance from a station to get their live stock to the station except by truck. From my district, which is between ninety and one hundred and ten miles from Toronto, practically all the stock is trucked into Toronto, and one can see the duplication there must be of trucks going over the same highway on the same day. Another reason for the great loss of traffic by the railways is that they have, rather stubbornly I think, refused to partition the stock cars, and it has been left to the shipper or loader to do it at his own cost, while the trucks have been willing, to put in partitions, if necessary, at no extra cost to the shipper. A third reason why the trucks are gaining and the railways losing in the business of handling live stock is the cost of stops to complete the filling of a car which has been partly filled, while the trucks will make stop after stop without any additional cost at all.

In view of this situation the railways should do a bit of heart-searching. I have here a letter from the United Farmers Cooperative Company, Limited, which I wish to put on Hansard. It reviews this situation, blames the railway companies rather severely, and

expresses the view that before we vote money for additional equipment for the two railway companies there ought to be some reckoning from the point of view of shippers of live stock.

This letter is addressed to me under date of May 14:

We are giving you a report on the question of live stock handling by the railway companies for the last ten years, in which the United Farmers' Cooperative Company, Limited endeavoured to persuade the railway companies to instal permanent adjustable partitions in live stock cars, so that different types of live stock would be partitioned off, which up to the present time has been done by live stock shippers, drovers or owners as the case may be.

^ We had the cooperation of the Eastern Canada Live Stock Union, the Western Canada Live Stock Union, the commission houses on the different markets in Canada, together with members of each live stock exchange in Canada, also stockyard companies and abattoir companies.

Eventually the different concerns above mentioned formed what is known as the efficient handling of live stock committee, of which we are members.

We have held meetings regularly each year, and have been before the board of railway commissioners at Ottawa, before a number of freight' traffic commissioners and officials of both of the railway companies of various kinds.

Our committee got a number of models from different people interested in the question and exhibited these models before the board of railway commissioners and other railway officials; they were built and installed in one car of the Canadian National and' one in the Canadian Pacific were sent out to various, parts of the dominion for demonstration purposes and proved to be just what was wanted.

When it came to the point where the committee expected some action we were surprised to learn that the railway companies came back with the decision that they were not financially able to install the partitions in stock cars even after they were offered the patent right for Canada free of charge. These gates were hung on a steel track in the roof of the car and when not in use could be moved to the ends of the car and only occupied four inches at each end.

Then they go on to discuss the next point.

The railway companies did' build a few portable gates which had to be carried in and out of the car and which required two men to handle and was at best only a makeshift, but they wanted to charge the stock men $1.50 for the use of two gates per trip,-

They certainly wanted all they were worth.

-and still persist in charging $3 for a stop off for completion-

And they give an example.

-such as loading part car at Chatsworth-

That happens to be in my constituency.

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[DOT]-and completing at Holland Centre, while truckers collect their load from various farmers with only the regular rate for the lot.

We come now to the point that we want to feature, namely that the railway company officials have treated the whole question with indifference due to lack of executive ability with the result that they have slowly but nevertheless surely lost enormous business to the truckers, so that the following figures will give you an idea how much the railways have lost in the movement of live stock to the Toronto market, to say nothing of the movement of stocker and feeder cattle going back to the country by truck.

For a period of nineteen weeks

And these were winter weeks.

-from the week ending January 5 to the week ending May 11, 1935, we find that there was the following volume of live stock come to the Toronto yards:

Total Receipts by Rail and Truck

Cattle. Calves Hogs.. Sheep.

107,999

37.271

63,847

56,720

Cattle.

Calves

Hogs. .

Sheep.

Total Receipts by Truck

56.105

27.393

33,965

9,378

Percentage by Truck

Cattle

Calves

Hogs

Sheep

73-49

16-53

A very large percentage of the receipts of sheep were from Alberta by rail.

If the trucks come to Toronto with live stock they are hauling back to country stores, to merchants and to farmers great quantities of freight, which was previously hauled by the railway companies.

In the light of all these facts we feel that when the railway companies appeal to the dominion government for additional loans or grants the government and the people of Canada should know how badly the officials have handled their business and' be forced to go back and show some effort on their part before any more money is entrusted to them.

Yours very truly,

The United Farmers Cooperative Company Limited

Live Stock Commission Department.

I came across an article in- a United States publication which confirms an idea I have often held and which has proved feasible in that country. I refer to the Chicago Daily Drovers Journal of May 6, 1935. At least three railways in the United States have established a pick-up service for live stock. The railways own or hire trucks which they send to the farms to pick up the live stock, which are transferred to the railway station. The first railroad to instal this service, I think, was the

Illinois Central, which established it last December. As of the date I mentioned, however, two other railroads, the Chicago, Burlington and Quincy and the Chicago and Northwestern, were installing a similar service. Let me quote one or two brief sentences to show what the service is like:

The rail carriers advise they are desirous of serving fully and completely their stock shippers and apparently from the success- of the Illinois Central experiment the service in question is very much to the liking of the farmers and stock feeders.

This service provides that the railroads, through arrangements with truck operators at each of the stations, will pick up at the farm live stock offered for shipment to Chicago. The stock will then be transported by the carrier to the Chicago stock yards at the regular carload rate.

The truck operators are paid by the rail carriers for performing this service from farm to the railroad loading pens.

If the stock owner prefers to truck his own stock to the loading station, the railroad agent at the loading station will pay the farmer in cash, three cents per hundred pounds for furnishing the transportation to the loading pens.

And further from the same article:

The shippers using the new service contend that there is considerable saving made by using the rail service compared to truck service. They point out the saving in insurance, yardage, commission charges, etc., as well as the better prices due to the stock arriving in better condition as compared with their previous experience with trucking. _

J. M. Madden, one of the enthusiastic users of the new service voiced the opinion that this new arrangement will not only reestablish numerous shipping associations but also benefit materially the small town merchants and banks by again concentrating the movement through the rail shipping stations.

In the edition of the same journal dated May 8, 1935, I find favourable comments on the new service, which I need not quote with the exception of one sentence:

The farm pick-up service for live stock being inaugurated' by railroads has a strong champion in Harvey Brucker of Lee county, Illinois, who was on Tuesday's market with eighteen head of stock.

Then the article goes on to give this gentleman's experience. I do feel that the railroads are losing their business, and there, is no use getting new equipment if there is no freight or passengers to be carried by that equipment. I should like, therefore, to ask the Minister of Railways if they are contemplating the installation of these two services, first the partitioning of railway cars for the carrying of live stock, as has been requested from coast to coast, and second the pick-up service by which the trucks will go to the farms and act as the servants of the railways.

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Topic:   PUBLIC WORKS PROGRAM
Subtopic:   WORKS, 'UNDERTAKINGS AND GUARANTEE OP RAILWAY EQUIPMENT SECURITIES TO CREATE EMPLOYMENT
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CON

Robert James Manion (Minister of Railways and Canals)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MANION:

I have listened with a great deal of interest to the hon. member's statement of the case. Both matters were drawn to the attention of the railways some time ago. In regard to the partitioning of the cars the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Weir), perhaps prompted as my hon. friend has been-I do not know as to that-wrote me some weeks ago suggesting that I take it up with the railways. I did take it up with both Mr. Beatty and Mr. Fullerton on behalf of the two railways. My recollection of their answer is that they did not feel that they could afford the extra expense at that time, but they were giving the matter consideration.

In regard to the trucking, I think it is obvious to the most superficial observer that the trucks have been cutting very heavily into the business of the railways, and some two or three years ago we had a very full discussion of that matter in the railways committee. At that time the officers in charge of both railways went into the matter very thoroughly, and stated that while undoubtedly a great deal of traffic was being taken away by trucks and passenger buses, they were endeavouring in various ways to get back some of that business. For example, the one cent a mile tours, which they have been putting on and which have been very advantageous to the railways from a financial standpoint, were intended to help the railways compete with the motor buses. Both railways, in the section of Canada west of Toronto and between Toronto and the United States border, towards Detroit and Port Huron, instituted a pick-up service similar to that suggested by my hon. friend; they had trucks working in association with the railways, picking up at one end and deliverting at the other in competition with the motor trucks.

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PRO

Agnes Campbell Macphail

Progressive

Miss MACPHAIL:

For live stock?

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CON

Robert James Manion (Minister of Railways and Canals)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MANION:

No, I just mean a general service. I am speaking generally, and do not know if they used it at all in connection with live stock. Some two years ago, without any technical knowledge of the matter, I made some investigations. Although the hon. member has not mentioned the point, I had understood that the Pennsylvania railroad had carried on this work more than any other railway on the continent. I think for about ten years the Pennsylvania railway had been awake to the situation, and I must say frankly that I do not believe either of our railways on this side of the line were awake to it. This particular American railway had carried on a very elaborate service to compete with the motor trucks carrying freight. They instituted a system whereby the bodies on the automobiles could be lifted off, without first being unloaded, such bodies being built so that they could be replaced on flat cars, lifted off at the completion of the rail journey and placed back on the automobiles for delivery to Philadelphia, New York or other points. This practice met with admirable results and I believe efforts of the Pennsylvania railway in that regard have been eminently successful. Other railways may have adopted similar methods, but I have a blear recollection of having read about their attempt to cope with the trucking competition.

Both our railways, however, are giving every attention to the points raised by the hon. member, and are endeavouring to work out some system whereby they may regain some of the traffic which in recent years they have lost because of the use of motor trucks. It is obvious that some of the loss can never be regained, but I am of the opinion that over a period of time much will be regained. It is stated by many railway authorities that the development of motor traffic and the manufacturing of automobiles in Canada and the United States has probably given more back to the railways than it has taken from them. That statement has been made on many occasions, although I do not know whether or not by actual statistics it could be proven. However I hasten to assure the hon. member that the railways are looking into the matters she has mentioned, and I shall be pleased to draw her remarks to their attention.

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PRO

Agnes Campbell Macphail

Progressive

Miss MACPHAIL:

I would point out to the Minister of Railways and Canals that the railways cannot now argue that they cannot afford the measures I have suggested, since it would appear that they are going to spend large sums of money in the purchase of new equipment. The partitioning of stock cars now existing is more important than the building of new cars which at the moment do not appear to be greatly needed. Would the minister say that the railways still contend they cannot afford the changes I have mentioned?

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CON

Robert James Manion (Minister of Railways and Canals)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mir. MANION:

I cannot argue the point, but obviously the railways have chosen that line of equipment which they think is best suited for their purposes. I will state quite emphatically that the railways have indicated the program which is to be carried out.

The hon. member for East Edmonton (Mr. Bury) asked a question that I overlooked. He inquired whether the division of the program

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and the decision as to whether some of the equipment was to be built in their own shops and some in the equipment shops was entirely in the hands of the railways. The program from which I read a few moments ago, and in which the type of car was indicated, was made up by the railways themselves without any prompting from me, and the manner in which the work is to be divided, whether for repairs or for new equipment, has been the work of the railways. I have not urged them, except that I did suggest they should give as much as possible to their own shops. I did wish in all sincerity so far as possible to assist the men in the railway shops to a reasonable degree. But in the final analysis the whole program has been worked out by the railways, and the allotments, whether east or west, whether in repair shops or equipment shops, have been made by the railway companies themselves.

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CON

George Reginald Geary

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. GEARY:

I should like to ask the hon. member for Southeast Grey (Miss Macphail) one or two questions. I have listened with interest to her observations, and should like to know if she will inform me first as to whether or not shipment by truck is satisfactory to those using that service, and whether it is more satisfactory than shipment by rail. Is there any difference in cost in favour of the truck? Then, is there any advantage other than that of cost which enures to the track shipment?

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PRO

Agnes Campbell Macphail

Progressive

Miss MACPHAIL:

I know only what I have observed. I think the farmer likes to ship by truck, if he can afford it, but at the same time he realizes that as a taxpayer he has to keep up the railways, whether he uses them or not. One of the evils which has crept in through the use of the truck is that of delivering live stock direct to the door of the packing plant, a process which is delivering the farmer into the hands of the packer. That condition was not so aggravated when stock was shipped by rail because the buyer had to go from the packing house to the stockyards to purchase stock.

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LIB

Frederick George Sanderson

Liberal

Mr. SANDERSON:

On April 15, when this bill was before the committee, I asked the Minister of Railways for some information and I am wondering if at this time he has it for me. He did not have it on that occasion, and I am not blaming him. Perhaps he tias not yet received it, but I believe I should ask him. I inquired as to how many railway shops and how many privately owned car shops and locomotive shops there were in Canada.

(Mr. Manion.] ' t ' WD

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CON

Robert James Manion (Minister of Railways and Canals)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MANION:

I believe I have the information, and if the hon. member will proceed with his observations I shall try to find it.

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LIB

Frederick George Sanderson

Liberal

Mr. SANDERSON:

On that occasion while the minister was not definite-

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CON

Robert James Manion (Minister of Railways and Canals)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MANION:

I believe I have the information. I am informed that there are Canadian Pacific Railway main repair shops at Montreal, West Toronto, Winnipeg, Calgary and Vancouver. The Canadian National Railways have the same type of shops at Moncton, St. Malo, Leaside. Montreal. Fort Rouge, Toronto, London, Stratford, Winnipeg, Edmonton and Port Mann. That is the list I have been given. Then, speaking from memory, the equipment shops would be the Eastern Car Company in the constituency of the hon. member for Pictou (Mr. Cantley), the Canadian Car and Foundry Company, Limited, of Montreal, the National Steel Car Company of Hamilton, the Montreal Locomotive Works, Limited, of Montreal and the Canadian Locomotive Works of Kingston.

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LIB

Frederick George Sanderson

Liberal

Mr. SANDERSON:

On April 15 the minister gave as the amount to be allocated to repairs the tentative figure of $1,500,000, or perhaps $2,000,000. I think he said the amount might reach $3,000,000. To-night he makes it $4,000,000. and I am pleased to note that it has reached that amount. As I understand it this is a relief measure, and the government is coming to the assistance of the two railway companies by guaranteeing the amount of $15,000,000 for new equipment and necessary repairs. Although I am in sympathy with the expenditure, I believe owing to the fact it is a relief measure there should be a more equal distribution of the money and work than has been indicated to-night. Out of the $15,000,000, $8 000.000 of which will go to the Canadian National Railways and 7.000.000 to the Canadian Pacific Railway, about $4,000,000 will be spent for repairs in railway shops. Is that correct?

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CON

Robert James Manion (Minister of Railways and Canals)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. IMANION:

Yes.

Mr. iSANDEIRSON: I say that is not an equal distribution. I fully understand that locomotive and car shops are looking for work because for tihe past four or five years they have been more or less idle. The hon. member for Pictou (Mr. Cantley) stated to-night that railway employees in this country had been better looked after and had fared somewhat better than any other class of employees. I take issue with him; I do not think he is correct.

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CON

Thomas Cantley

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. GANTLEY:

That is your privilege.

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LIB

Frederick George Sanderson

Liberal

Mr. SANDERSON:

I do not want to get into an argument with him. My point is that more than $4,000,000 should be expended on repair work to be carried on in the railroad Shops. The minister read a statement which he had received from the railroads giving the class of work and the new equipment which would be required. The new equipment included locomotives and cars of different types, and I want to say that in the past these railroad shops have built locomotives and cars. I do not pretend to say that locomotives and cars manufactured in these shops will not cost more than those manufactured by the private companies, but it must be remembered that this is a relief measure. The government is asking the people of this country to guarantee $15,000,000 for this purpose, and I have grave doubts of its being paid back. It certainly will not be paid back unless there is considerable improvement in the near future. In a relief measure such as this there should be a larger amount than $4,000,000 allotted to the shops. I ask the minister to take the matter into his earnest and serious consideration. I believe he wants to be fair in this matter and I put it to him again if he does not think that $4,000,000 represents an unequal distribution of the $15,000,000 which the committee is being asked to vote.

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CON

Robert James Manion (Minister of Railways and Canals)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MANION:

The hon. member has mentioned that back about April 15 I started with about $1,000,000 for repairs. He may be right but I do not remember ever being below $2,500,000 or $3,000,000.

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LIB

Frederick George Sanderson

Liberal

Mr. SANDERSON:

It is in Hansard.

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May 27, 1935