March 27, 1935

CON

George Halsey Perley (Minister Without Portfolio)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Sir GEORGE PERLEY:

I think Your

Honour is quite right in your interpretation of the rule. I would put it to my hon. friend from North Winnipeg (Mr. Heaps) in this way: Under standing order 15 there is a list of the routine proceedings. Then it says:

The order of business for the consideration of the house, day by day, after the daily routine, shall be as follows: -

And on Wednesday:

Questions; notices of motions; public bills and orders-

So questions come after routine. That appears on page 40; questions and notices of motions come after the routine proceedings are concluded. Therefore according to this rule, which was quoted by the hon. gentleman also, routine proceedings have been concluded; the routine business was concluded before questions were answered.

Topic:   CONFERENCE OF MAYORS
Subtopic:   REPORTED REQUEST OP REPRESENTATIVES OP CANADIAN CITIES AND MUNICIPALITIES TO BE HEARD AT BAR OP THE HOUSE
Permalink
LIB

Ian Alistair Mackenzie

Liberal

Hon. IAN MACKENZIE (Vancouver Centre):

It seems to me, Mr. Speaker, that the whole question hinges on whether the order, on page 7 of the orders of to-day, of notices of motion for production of papers is synonymous with the order for notices of motion on page 10 of the orders of the day. If Your Honour decides that notices of motion for production of papers means notices of motion under standing order 15, then I think Your Honour's ruling is correct. On the other hand I think there is force in the contention that the rule refers only to the notices of motion which come after the orders of the day, on to-day's order paper. In that event, sir, I think the hon. member for North Winnipeg is quite entitled to proceed. I think there is distinct ambiguity under this rule, and because of that ambiguity I think the hon. member should be permitted to proceed.

Topic:   CONFERENCE OF MAYORS
Subtopic:   REPORTED REQUEST OP REPRESENTATIVES OP CANADIAN CITIES AND MUNICIPALITIES TO BE HEARD AT BAR OP THE HOUSE
Permalink
UFA

Edward Joseph Garland

United Farmers of Alberta

Mr. E. J. GARLAND (Bow River):

Mr. Speaker, there does appear to be a very profound doubt in your own mind as to the ruling you should give on this occasion. With all deference I submit to Your Honour that

the question at issue is of such vital importance to the whole dominion, involving as it does in the words of the mayors themselves the very peace, order and good government of Canada, that it would be a dangerous thing to deny the hon. member for North Winnipeg the opportunity of presenting this case to this house at this time. I do not think the house can afford to overlook this matter, especially as Your Honour does appear to have some doubt on the point.

Topic:   CONFERENCE OF MAYORS
Subtopic:   REPORTED REQUEST OP REPRESENTATIVES OP CANADIAN CITIES AND MUNICIPALITIES TO BE HEARD AT BAR OP THE HOUSE
Permalink
CON

Pierre Édouard Blondin (Speaker of the Senate)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. SPEAKER:

Is there any further discussion on the point of order?

Topic:   CONFERENCE OF MAYORS
Subtopic:   REPORTED REQUEST OP REPRESENTATIVES OP CANADIAN CITIES AND MUNICIPALITIES TO BE HEARD AT BAR OP THE HOUSE
Permalink
CON

Robert James Manion (Minister of Railways and Canals)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Hon. R. J. MANION (Minister of Railways and Canals):

I wish to say a word on the point of order. It strikes me, Mr. Speaker, as it always has struck me that the proceeding of the house under which any motion such as this should be made is distinctly set out on page 2 of the order paper. First comes reports by standing and select committees; then comes the routine proceeding of motions. That does not apply only to government motions; private members have the same right to submit motions as have members of the government. Very many private members on both sides of the house submit motions of one kind or another under that order, and I think the hon. gentleman should have submitted his motion under the order of motions, just as you have pointed out.

Topic:   CONFERENCE OF MAYORS
Subtopic:   REPORTED REQUEST OP REPRESENTATIVES OP CANADIAN CITIES AND MUNICIPALITIES TO BE HEARD AT BAR OP THE HOUSE
Permalink
LIB

Ian Alistair Mackenzie

Liberal

Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver):

But motions are a part of routine proceedings, and this rule specifically states that motions must be proceeded with after routine proceedings are disposed of.

Topic:   CONFERENCE OF MAYORS
Subtopic:   REPORTED REQUEST OP REPRESENTATIVES OP CANADIAN CITIES AND MUNICIPALITIES TO BE HEARD AT BAR OP THE HOUSE
Permalink
CON

Robert James Manion (Minister of Railways and Canals)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MANION:

My hon. friend may be right, but I am giving my opinion. I think this should have come up under motions.

Topic:   CONFERENCE OF MAYORS
Subtopic:   REPORTED REQUEST OP REPRESENTATIVES OP CANADIAN CITIES AND MUNICIPALITIES TO BE HEARD AT BAR OP THE HOUSE
Permalink
LAB

James Shaver Woodsworth

Labour

Mr. J. S. WOODSWORTH (Winnipeg North Centre):

Mr. President,-

Topic:   CONFERENCE OF MAYORS
Subtopic:   REPORTED REQUEST OP REPRESENTATIVES OP CANADIAN CITIES AND MUNICIPALITIES TO BE HEARD AT BAR OP THE HOUSE
Permalink
?

Some hon. MEMBERS:

Oh, oh.

Topic:   CONFERENCE OF MAYORS
Subtopic:   REPORTED REQUEST OP REPRESENTATIVES OP CANADIAN CITIES AND MUNICIPALITIES TO BE HEARD AT BAR OP THE HOUSE
Permalink
LAB

James Shaver Woodsworth

Labour

Mr. WOODSWORTH:

There are two official languages used in this house, and if I choose to use the French form there is no reason why I should not do so. Mr. Speaker, I submit that the reason for this rule is that on any sitting day of the house, if there is a matter of definite urgent public importance an hon. member should have the right to bring it to the attention of the house. I cannot conceive that this rule 134 is very clear. The time for asking leave to move the adjournment of the house for the purpose of moving a definite matter of urgent public importance is after routine proceedings and before the orders of the day are entered upon.

Conference of Mayors

That seems to be perfectly. clear. Up to the present the orders of the day have not been entered upon. If this is not the time, would you, Mr. Speaker, indicate just when is the time, because undoubtedly these proceedings of which we have already disposed, including notices of motion for the production of papers, are a part of routine proceedings, and so with questions. At that time we could not enter upon a discussion of the matter. I do not see any other time when it would have been proper to introduce a motion of this kind. On a number of occasions in the past fourteen years I have introduced motions of this kind, and unless my memory fails me they were introduced on the orders of the day. I should have to look that up, but I think that is the case, and I do not see that the rule is very clear.

Topic:   CONFERENCE OF MAYORS
Subtopic:   REPORTED REQUEST OP REPRESENTATIVES OP CANADIAN CITIES AND MUNICIPALITIES TO BE HEARD AT BAR OP THE HOUSE
Permalink
LIB

William Daum Euler

Liberal

Hon. W. D. EULER (North Waterloo):

Mr. Speaker, I do not often intervene in a debate of this kind, but it seems to me that the argument is concerned purely with a matter of technicality. I would suggest to you, sir, and to the house that as this matter seems to be of very considerable importance, the house be generous enough to revert to that order of business which will permit this motion to be proceeded with.

Topic:   CONFERENCE OF MAYORS
Subtopic:   REPORTED REQUEST OP REPRESENTATIVES OP CANADIAN CITIES AND MUNICIPALITIES TO BE HEARD AT BAR OP THE HOUSE
Permalink
UFA

Edward Joseph Garland

United Farmers of Alberta

Mr. GARLAND (Bow River):

In any case may I submit that we have not yet reached notices of motion.

Topic:   CONFERENCE OF MAYORS
Subtopic:   REPORTED REQUEST OP REPRESENTATIVES OP CANADIAN CITIES AND MUNICIPALITIES TO BE HEARD AT BAR OP THE HOUSE
Permalink
?

Some hon. MEMBERS:

Order.

Topic:   CONFERENCE OF MAYORS
Subtopic:   REPORTED REQUEST OP REPRESENTATIVES OP CANADIAN CITIES AND MUNICIPALITIES TO BE HEARD AT BAR OP THE HOUSE
Permalink
UFA

Edward Joseph Garland

United Farmers of Alberta

Mr. GARLAND (Bow River):

Notices of motion appear on page 10 of the orders of the day of to-day, Wednesday, March 27.

Topic:   CONFERENCE OF MAYORS
Subtopic:   REPORTED REQUEST OP REPRESENTATIVES OP CANADIAN CITIES AND MUNICIPALITIES TO BE HEARD AT BAR OP THE HOUSE
Permalink
LIB

William Lyon Mackenzie King (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Liberal

Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Leader of the Opposition):

Just before you

give your ruling Mr. Speaker, may I say that I am anxious to support the Speaker in any ruling he may give which upholds the rules of the house, and I am prepared to do so. At the same time I favour the point of view presented by the hon. member for North Waterloo (Mr. Euler) who has just spoken, and I would express the hope that a generous attitude might be taken by the house itself on this matter and that we might return to the order of proceedings which would permit of the motion being discussed. The point that is being raised at the moment, as to the time at which this motion should be introduced, is purely technical. Once the motion is introduced it can be discussed and will have to be discussed on its merits. I would favour a generous view being taken as to the introduction of the motion.

Topic:   CONFERENCE OF MAYORS
Subtopic:   REPORTED REQUEST OP REPRESENTATIVES OP CANADIAN CITIES AND MUNICIPALITIES TO BE HEARD AT BAR OP THE HOUSE
Permalink
CON

George Halsey Perley (Minister Without Portfolio)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Sir GEORGE PERLEY:

So far as this

side of the house is concerned we have no objection whatever to this matter being discussed, but we think the hon. gentleman is out of order and should withdraw his motion. Then if he chooses to move that we revert to the order of motions, which would sustain the ruling of the Speaker, so far as I am concerned I wo'uld have no objection to doing so.

Topic:   CONFERENCE OF MAYORS
Subtopic:   REPORTED REQUEST OP REPRESENTATIVES OP CANADIAN CITIES AND MUNICIPALITIES TO BE HEARD AT BAR OP THE HOUSE
Permalink
CON

Pierre Édouard Blondin (Speaker of the Senate)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. SPEAKER:

Does the hon. member

for North Winnipeg accede to the request of the acting Prime Minister?

Topic:   CONFERENCE OF MAYORS
Subtopic:   REPORTED REQUEST OP REPRESENTATIVES OP CANADIAN CITIES AND MUNICIPALITIES TO BE HEARD AT BAR OP THE HOUSE
Permalink
LAB

Abraham Albert Heaps

Labour

Mr. HEAPS:

On the understanding given

by the acting Prime Minister I am glad to withdraw my motion.

Topic:   CONFERENCE OF MAYORS
Subtopic:   REPORTED REQUEST OP REPRESENTATIVES OP CANADIAN CITIES AND MUNICIPALITIES TO BE HEARD AT BAR OP THE HOUSE
Permalink
CON

Pierre Édouard Blondin (Speaker of the Senate)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. SPEAKER:

Shall consent be granted?

Topic:   CONFERENCE OF MAYORS
Subtopic:   REPORTED REQUEST OP REPRESENTATIVES OP CANADIAN CITIES AND MUNICIPALITIES TO BE HEARD AT BAR OP THE HOUSE
Permalink
?

Some hon. MEMBERS:

Carried.

Topic:   CONFERENCE OF MAYORS
Subtopic:   REPORTED REQUEST OP REPRESENTATIVES OP CANADIAN CITIES AND MUNICIPALITIES TO BE HEARD AT BAR OP THE HOUSE
Permalink

March 27, 1935