February 28, 1935

?

Some hon. MEMBERS:

Oh, oh.

Topic:   CANADIAN FARM LOAN ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO FACILITATE AND INCREASE THE EXTENSION OF CREDIT TO FARMERS
Permalink
CON

George Spotton

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. SPOTTON:

Well, where were the

farmers to turn? No other organization was loaning money and to scores of my farmers who are in danger of being driven off their farms, I am going to say to them, as I wire them weekly: Take advantage of the Farmers' Creditors Arrangement Act; that will hold you secure until the federal farm loan act is in operation and you will be able to hang on to the old homestead. The Hepburn administration has not been granting any new loans in the county of Huron. They may have done so in Frontenac, where they did some very cruel things, but they have not done it in the constituency I represent.

Topic:   CANADIAN FARM LOAN ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO FACILITATE AND INCREASE THE EXTENSION OF CREDIT TO FARMERS
Permalink
CON

James Arthurs

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. ARTHURS:

In the first place I am

quite satisfied that the great majority of the farming community in Canada is entirely in favour of this act and I am satisfied that there are not many hon. gentlemen opposite who dare oppose it. During this afternoon we have heard one or two hon. members opposing it. The hon. member for Vancouver-Burrard made the plea that this was class legislation and he strongly pleaded in favour not of the mortgagor but of the mortgagee; he was inclined to protect the interests of the investor rather than those of the farmer. The hon. member for Temisoouata took a very peculiar attitude particularly in view of the fact that hon. gentlemen opposite have 'been pleading on behalf of the farmer. He said that this act would ruin the credit of the farmers with

Farm Loan Act

thie banks. I have understood from almost all hon. gentlemen opposite who have been speaking on behalf of the farmers, that they have no credit with the banks at all.

I rise principally for the purpose of answering sonae remarks made the other day by the hon. member for Frontenac-Addlington (Mr. Campbell). In my riding as in many others, including those of some hon. members who have spoken to-day, no farm loans have been made to my knowledge since June last. At that time there were many loans completed in so far as everything was concerned except the passing of the cheque. There is one case in particular of which I have personal knowledge where a man transferred his farm to the then mortgagee. He had sold the farm to another and taken property in Toronto as an equity. He had transferred the property to the farmer who was about to mortgage it to the farm loan board. The title had been searched; the mortgage was made out and registered as required by the Ontario board. Everything was completed except the passing of the cheque, but the loan has not up to the present date been granted.

Topic:   CANADIAN FARM LOAN ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO FACILITATE AND INCREASE THE EXTENSION OF CREDIT TO FARMERS
Permalink
LIB

Joseph-Arthur Bradette

Liberal

Mr. BRADETTE:

What is the name?

Topic:   CANADIAN FARM LOAN ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO FACILITATE AND INCREASE THE EXTENSION OF CREDIT TO FARMERS
Permalink
CON

James Arthurs

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. ARTHURS:

I am not giving names

here any more than is the hon. gentleman.

Topic:   CANADIAN FARM LOAN ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO FACILITATE AND INCREASE THE EXTENSION OF CREDIT TO FARMERS
Permalink
LIB

Joseph-Arthur Bradette

Liberal

Mr. BRADETTE:

I would like to get the names of all those cases. The hon. member cannot give them.

Topic:   CANADIAN FARM LOAN ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO FACILITATE AND INCREASE THE EXTENSION OF CREDIT TO FARMERS
Permalink
CON

James Arthurs

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. ARTHURS:

I want to point out also

that as far as Ontario and I believe the whole dominion are concerned, the Farmers' Creditors Arrangement Act depends in a large measure upon the successful passing of this measure. Many farmers are quite able to secure a compromise with their creditors providing they can produce ready money which could be acquired under this act. The difficulty in regard to providing ready money is what has caused the delay in many cases of adjustments under the Farmers' Creditors Arrangement Act.

As I have said before, I have no desire to delay this legislation; in fact I am most anxious that it should be passed. I am bringing up these incidents merely to help the act along rather than to do anything to hinder its passing.

Topic:   CANADIAN FARM LOAN ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO FACILITATE AND INCREASE THE EXTENSION OF CREDIT TO FARMERS
Permalink
LIB

Joseph-Arthur Bradette

Liberal

Mr. BRADETTE:

It is very easy to see from the discussion this afternoon that hon. members opposite are not in love with Mr. Hepburn, but the criticisms that have been made of him in this chamber are not going to do him any harm. Hon. gentlemen opposite

seem to believe that we should not have any central government; that we should all go to the provincial field. When I first came into the house I tried to establish the status of the settlers and I was glad to hear on Monday of this week that the Minister of Labour was placing some classes of settlers under the scheme. He stated that settlers operating farms under contract with the director of soldiers' settlement could apply for the benefits of the Farmers' Creditors Arrangement Act. I believe the minister tried to answer my question last week in regard to giving the exact status of the settlers, but no final decision was reached. There is only one standard, that of colonization settlers, because you cannot build up classes within classes and you must necessarily permit all settlers, even if they are not or have not been soldiers, to come under the scheme.

I would like the committee to be fully seized of the exact situation so far as not'hern Ontario in its relation to this act is concerned and I believe the same thing applies also to northern Quebec and the newer sections of colonization of the prairie provinces and British Columbia. In the two provincial ridings of Cochrane, Ontario, there are over 3,600 families who have settled on the land and who are actual farmers in the full sense of the word although they do not own their farms outright. Their farms still belong to the crown in the right of the province. These people would not come under the scheme. Surely if it is possible for soldier settlers to come under the scheme these people who are actual settlers, living on their holdings and getting their living out of farming, ought to be able to come under the act. The minister was not definite in his answer the other day and there was no possibility of arriving at a conclusion or giving a full definition of the status of people in actual occupation. As I say, if it is possible for soldier settlers to come under this act, it should be possible also for an actual settler, one who has occupied his land for a number of years and to whom the land belongs to some extent, to come under the act. I am sincere in my pleading on behalf of that rural population. When we talk of agriculturists, we must include not only farmers who own their land but also the man whose actual occupation is farming. This should be possible within certain limits.

I fully appreciate the statement made by the Minister of Finance the other day that this was a colonization scheme. I do not want it to be taken as a colonization scheme;

Farm Loan Act

but the last stage of colonization, when a man is almost ready to get his deed, having sufficient land cleared but being unable under provincial regulations to get it, is the time that the central government should come to his help. It should be possible to bring within the provisions of this measure the real settlers in the newer sections, as well as the soldier settler. There Should be no distinction. If you are going to make classes within classes it will bring trouble. Again I make this urgent plea, and I am going to keep on making it, because it is very important. It applies just as forcibly to the riding of the Minister of Labour (Mr. Gordon) as to that I have the honour to represent. In such ridings there are thousands of families who are not able to benefit under this scheme as it stands at present. That is also true in Pontiac and several ridings on the Quebec side. If the government is really desirous of finding a solution for the problem of the farmers they should make it possible for all who deserve the name of farmer to benefit. .

Now I want the Minister of Finance to give me a concrete answer on that very important point. I do not want to be unreasonable, I do not want a settler who has just settled to come within these benefits, but the man I refer to is the farmer who by actual work for the last five or ten years has shown himself to be such. It is possible for the government to be fully protected, there are inspectors on the ground in the different provinces and they can distinguish between the settler and the real farmer. I ask the minister to give a ruling on that point. In my section we are absolutely in favour of anything that will improve the lot of the farmer as well as of the working man, but under this legislation we see no salvation and no help for one of the finest rural sections there is in Canada to-day.

Topic:   CANADIAN FARM LOAN ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO FACILITATE AND INCREASE THE EXTENSION OF CREDIT TO FARMERS
Permalink
CON

Edgar Nelson Rhodes (Minister of Finance and Receiver General)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. RHODES:

I take no exception to the

hon. member for North Timiskaming (Mr. Bradette) making a plea for the settlers in his area, but may I point out that I am not competent to give a ruling, as he puts it. He cited a reply given to him on a question submitted to the Minister of Labour. That had reference to the Farmers' Creditors Arrangement Act, and had we been discussing that act I would have given the same reply. To-day we are discussing the Canadian Farm Loan Act. I propose to move an amendment to the present bill which will define a farmer in precisely the same terms as the definition in the Farmers' Creditors Arrangement Act. That is as specific an answer as I can give. My hon. friend will realize that the board

must be the judge whether or not a man comes within the definition laid down by the act.

Topic:   CANADIAN FARM LOAN ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO FACILITATE AND INCREASE THE EXTENSION OF CREDIT TO FARMERS
Permalink
LIB

John Vallance

Liberal

Mr. VALLANCE:

On Monday last I drew to the attention of the minister a condition that exists in Saskatchewan in connection with the exemption law of that province. The minister answered me at that time that he was not aware that any representations had been made to the government. After recess the minister was kind enough to refer to a telegram, I believe, sent by the chairman of the board. I did not happen to be in my seat at the time.

Mr. RHODES. Sent by the commissioner. Air. VALLANCE:

In view of fact that Saskatchewan is only province which provides for exemptions from seizure under chattel mortgage and in view of fact that conditions of loan require additional security on chattels, believe board will require legislation in your province which will make security taken on chattels in province of equal value to similar security taken in other provinces.

That suggests to me that the other eight provinces have no such exemption legislation. Saskatchewan did have an exemption law unless legislation passed recently cancelled it. The very fact that we have an exemption law indicates that the farmers in that province probably were in greater need of financial assistance than those in any other province. In spite of what the hon. member for North Huron has said about the western provinces I still claim that we in the west, through no fault of our own, find ourselves in a more difficult position than farmers in the eastern provinces. If this Canadian Farm Loan Act is to be operative in Saskatchewan only on condition that the exemption law now in existence be done away with this act will be of very little advantage to the farmers there. All loans that have been advanced up to the present to farmers in Saskatchewan have been advanced with these exemptions in existence.

What are the exemptions? I put them on record in Hansard last Monday; they are: Four oxen, horses, or mules, or any four of them, six cows, six sheep, four pigs and fifty domestic fowls besides the other animals kept for food purposes, together with food for such animals for the period from November 1, to April 31, or such portions of the months which follow the date of seizure.

Now I am in hearty accord with the act and the spirit of the act and what it proposes to do, but if as a preliminary to its becoming operative in Saskatchewan we are to be compelled to forego that right we had

12S8

Farm Loan Act

under the exemption law, to me it seems too great a price. The migration of farmers from the drought areas to the northern part of the province was possible only because - they had these exemptions. If they had not had them you would have had, not hundreds but tens of thousands of destitute farmers in Saskatchewan alone. So I am apprehensive about what the final result will be if we should be faced with climatic conditions in the next few years similar to those we have had for the past five or six. So I urge the minister that the exemption laws be left in effect; loans have been advanced by private companies with these exemption laws in existence, and if private capital is willing to invest in farm mortgages notwithstanding the exemption law, surely the Dominion of Canada can do the same. I think section 9 deals with this whole matter. It reads:

In the event of legislation being passed by the legislature of any province operating under this act after loans have been made available in that province which, in the opinion of the board, would prejudicially affect the security of existing or future loans, the board, by notice to be published in the Canada Gazette, may cease to make further loans in that province.

It would seem that this farm loan board is going to be clothed with authority to sit in judgment on the legislatures of the provinces, and if legislation passed by a province does not meet with the approval of the farm loan board that board will have the right to cease lending money in that province. That power to supersede the legislature is too great to give to any board. I urge that before this bill is passed the minister give consideration to those provinces that have exemption laws.

Topic:   CANADIAN FARM LOAN ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO FACILITATE AND INCREASE THE EXTENSION OF CREDIT TO FARMERS
Permalink
CON

Edgar Nelson Rhodes (Minister of Finance and Receiver General)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. RHODES:

Mr. Chairman, my hon.

friend cited section 9 of the act. We are only inserting that in the present amendment for the purpose of renumbering. That section was in the old act, and has been there since 1927. It has no reference to the point my hon. friend has just made. But I am advised by the solicitor of the farm loan board that these exemptions from chattel mortgages have been peculiar to the province of Saskatchewan, that they have not obtained in any other province, and that the list of exemptions in Saskatchewan was very widely enlarged during the session of 1934. The object that the commissioner of the farm loan board had in mind in bringing the matter to the attention of the government of Saskatchewan was not to prejudice the farmers of that province.

Topic:   CANADIAN FARM LOAN ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO FACILITATE AND INCREASE THE EXTENSION OF CREDIT TO FARMERS
Permalink
LIB

John Vallance

Liberal

Mr. VALANCE:

I am not suggesting

that.

Topic:   CANADIAN FARM LOAN ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO FACILITATE AND INCREASE THE EXTENSION OF CREDIT TO FARMERS
Permalink
CON

Edgar Nelson Rhodes (Minister of Finance and Receiver General)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. RHODES:

The object was to assist

the farmer by making available to him additional security which, as my hon. friend and the committee will realize, only has application to second mortgages. Otherwise there would have been no necessity for dealing with the question of chattels at all because under part I of the act we deal only with first mortgages oovering real estate and buildings. The solicitor further advises me that the amendment which has been passed by the Saskatchewan legislature only has reference to mortgages made to the Canadian farm loan board, and that the law with respect to those exemptions remains as it was with respect to other mortgagors.

Topic:   CANADIAN FARM LOAN ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO FACILITATE AND INCREASE THE EXTENSION OF CREDIT TO FARMERS
Permalink
LIB

John Vallance

Liberal

Mr. VALLANCE:

That is what I object

to.

Topic:   CANADIAN FARM LOAN ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO FACILITATE AND INCREASE THE EXTENSION OF CREDIT TO FARMERS
Permalink
CON

Edgar Nelson Rhodes (Minister of Finance and Receiver General)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. RHODES:

So my hon. friend will

realize that it has a limited application. My hon. friend says he objects. He will appreciate, of course, that in that case the question is one wholly for the legislature of Saskatchewan, because in the natural course I would asume that the commissioner would make his recommendations only with respect to loans which might be made by the farm loan board.

Topic:   CANADIAN FARM LOAN ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO FACILITATE AND INCREASE THE EXTENSION OF CREDIT TO FARMERS
Permalink
CON

James J. Donnelly

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. DONNELLY:

Topic:   CANADIAN FARM LOAN ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO FACILITATE AND INCREASE THE EXTENSION OF CREDIT TO FARMERS
Permalink
CON

Frank Thomas Shaver

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. SHAVER:

Would the hon. gentleman permit a question?

Topic:   CANADIAN FARM LOAN ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO FACILITATE AND INCREASE THE EXTENSION OF CREDIT TO FARMERS
Permalink
CON

James J. Donnelly

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. DONNELLY:

the Argentine are in the same position. They are receiving more than we are for their produce, because of their small freight haul due to being close to the seashore and also because of their inflated currency. I know of no country in the world where the farmer is in such a bad condition, unless it be India. Unless some relief is given to the western farmers the same will be said of western Canada as was said of India, namely, "Unless something is done for the Indian farmer we will have one vast rural slum." That will be true of western Canada unless something is done for our farmers.

Topic:   CANADIAN FARM LOAN ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO FACILITATE AND INCREASE THE EXTENSION OF CREDIT TO FARMERS
Permalink
CON

Ernest Edward Perley

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. PERLEY (Qu'Appelle):

You are not

helping it with that kind of stuff.

Topic:   CANADIAN FARM LOAN ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO FACILITATE AND INCREASE THE EXTENSION OF CREDIT TO FARMERS
Permalink
CON

Henry Alfred Mullins

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MULLINS:

I have been sitting here for some days listening attentively for some constructive suggestion from the opposite side of the house and I have not yet heard it. I have heard nothing but criticism. There are hon. members sitting on the other side of the house who want to scuttle the ship so as to drown the captain of this party. I have waited patiently for something constructive. I have listened to the hon. member for Macleod talk about a nineteen cent cow; I heard the hon. member for Sherbrooke talk about five cattle for four dollars. I heard an hon. member making the statement that Canada is in the worst position of any country in the world. He does not know what he is talking about. All I ask is that he go where I have just come from; let him travel through Kansas. I have just come from Kansas and Colorado and I saw them gathering tumble weed, a weed which is gathered on the prairies for feed to save their live stock. They are in a far worse condition than we are.

Topic:   CANADIAN FARM LOAN ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO FACILITATE AND INCREASE THE EXTENSION OF CREDIT TO FARMERS
Permalink

February 28, 1935