February 25, 1935

PRO

Agnes Campbell Macphail

Progressive

Miss MACPHAIL:

Is that an unusual

occurrence in this house?

Topic:   CANADIAN FARM LOAN ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO FACILITATE AND INCREASE THE EXTENSION OF CREDIT TO FARMERS
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CON

Raymond Ducharme Morand

Conservative (1867-1942)

The CHAIRMAN (Mr. Morand):

It is

not according to the rules.

Topic:   CANADIAN FARM LOAN ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO FACILITATE AND INCREASE THE EXTENSION OF CREDIT TO FARMERS
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PRO

Agnes Campbell Macphail

Progressive

Miss MACPHAIL:

Then hon. members

had better observe that rule.

Topic:   CANADIAN FARM LOAN ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO FACILITATE AND INCREASE THE EXTENSION OF CREDIT TO FARMERS
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CON

Edgar Nelson Rhodes (Minister of Finance and Receiver General)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. RHODES:

I am just making that

suggestion, Mr. Chairman. Now, coming back to the reference of my hon. friend from Macleod, I cannot add anything to what I have said already with respect to the question of interest. I am in the judgment of the committee upon that question to a very large extent, but I do feel that we are going as far as we can when we provide money to the

farmer at cost, which is practically what we are doing. My hon. friend from Macleod has spoken about other countries. I have pointed out that at the present time in the United States, through the farm loan banks, they are charging the farmers five per cent under contracts which call for the payment of five and a half per cent after 1938, and I have stated already that I think we can have at least five per cent money in Canada.

Topic:   CANADIAN FARM LOAN ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO FACILITATE AND INCREASE THE EXTENSION OF CREDIT TO FARMERS
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UFA

Edward Joseph Garland

United Farmers of Alberta

Mr. GARLAND (Bow River):

Mr. Chairman, I am tempted to believe that for theMinister of Finance this must indeed be ablue Monday. Rarely have I seen him so, shall I say, prickly or crusty. It is quiteopposed to his usual rather genial good

humour. I wonder if it is not true that it was the excellence of the argument of the hon. member for Macleod that really got under his hide a bit. There is no doubt that the policies of this administration, in their mad, insane desire to maintain what they called sound money in the face of the inevitable financial trend of all nations at that time, resulted in ghastly losses to agriculture and many of the other primary industries of this country, not excepting lumbering and fishing. If the government had been well advised, as they would have been had they followed our advice, in regard to the question of attempting to maintain some balance between the value of the Canadian dollar and the value of the British pound when Great Britain went off the gold standard, our cattle trade would have been saved $10 per head.

Topic:   CANADIAN FARM LOAN ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO FACILITATE AND INCREASE THE EXTENSION OF CREDIT TO FARMERS
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CON

Ernest D'Israeli Smith

Conservative (1867-1942)

The CHAIRMAN (Mr. Smith, Cumberland) :

Would the hon. member please stick to the bill?

Topic:   CANADIAN FARM LOAN ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO FACILITATE AND INCREASE THE EXTENSION OF CREDIT TO FARMERS
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UFA

Edward Joseph Garland

United Farmers of Alberta

Mr. GARLAND (Bow River):

We are sticking to the bill, and sticking strictly to' the bill. What I have said has a very direct and definite relationship with the whole argument of the Minister of Finance on this bill. He has suggested that the hon. member for Macleod is to be rebuked because he used illustrations from other countries, notably New Zealand and Australia, to point the moral of his tale. I heard the Prime Minister himself for hours and for days pointing the moral of his tale by holding out the unemployment insurance measure of Great Britain. That is a distant pasture, almost as distant as Australia or New Zealand.

If it comes to a question of distant pastures this government should not rebuke anybody. It was the government's anxiety to guard the well being of New York and other foreign creditors which resulted in the deliberate action of maintaining currency at a fictitious

Farm Loan Act

value in relation to international exchange and which resulted in a ghastly loss to us, as I stated formerly. The hon. member for Macleod has put up an argument which the minister has not and cannot answer. I do hope however that in spite of that the government will consider the advisability of helping to carry the costs of the administration of this bill. I hope before the bill is given third reading the government will have become sufficiently well advised to introduce a clause such as has been introduced in connection with the unemployment insurance measure. Subsection (3) of section 8 of the unemployment insurance measure contains the following provision:

The costs of administration of this act, including remuneration of commissioners, officers, clerks and employees, shall be paid out of moneys provided by parliament.

I submit the inclusion of a section exactly the same as the one I have read would enable the farm loan board to advance moneys to agriculture at a rate of interest which would be in some degree commensurate with the farmers' ability to pay.

Topic:   CANADIAN FARM LOAN ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO FACILITATE AND INCREASE THE EXTENSION OF CREDIT TO FARMERS
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CON

Edgar Nelson Rhodes (Minister of Finance and Receiver General)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. RHODES:

May I say to the hon. member for Bow River that if when he used the elegant phrase whereby he suggested something had got under my skin he had in mind anything I may have said to the hon. member for MacLeod, he is entirely mistaken. I hold the hon. member for Macleod in the highest esteem and would be one of the last persons in this chamber who would desire to give that hon. member the slightest offence. I do not think the hon. member for Macleod was offended in any way. What I did attempt to say was-and I may have said it clumsily or may have been unfortunate in my manner of speaking-that his argument had no bearing upon the bill. I still say that in my judgment it had no bearing. I do not decline to discuss the question of inflation and various matters cognate thereto which he did discuss. Were I competent I would proceed to do so upon another occasion. But I say that matter has no bearing upon the bill, nor by any stretch of the imagination can a discussion of that point be said to be a discussion of this measure. What I did take exception to wras the hon. member for Bow River, who very frequently takes a superior attitude and rather sympathizes with or feels sorry for every other hon. member in the chamber-

Topic:   CANADIAN FARM LOAN ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO FACILITATE AND INCREASE THE EXTENSION OF CREDIT TO FARMERS
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UFA

Edward Joseph Garland

United Farmers of Alberta

Mr. GARLAND (Bow River):

No.

Topic:   CANADIAN FARM LOAN ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO FACILITATE AND INCREASE THE EXTENSION OF CREDIT TO FARMERS
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CON

Edgar Nelson Rhodes (Minister of Finance and Receiver General)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. RHODES:

-interjecting remarks from his seat. I have a sense of the fitness and proportion of things, and I like to see the business of parliament conducted in a proper

manner. That cannot be done if we allow one hon. member to interject remarks from his seat when another hon. member has the floor.

Topic:   CANADIAN FARM LOAN ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO FACILITATE AND INCREASE THE EXTENSION OF CREDIT TO FARMERS
Permalink
PRO

Agnes Campbell Macphail

Progressive

Miss MACPHAIL:

We will remember that.

Topic:   CANADIAN FARM LOAN ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO FACILITATE AND INCREASE THE EXTENSION OF CREDIT TO FARMERS
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CON

Edgar Nelson Rhodes (Minister of Finance and Receiver General)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. RHODES:

I wish the hon. member for Southeast Grey would remember that, because she has spoken out twice since she made her former observations. I will leave it to this committee-

Topic:   CANADIAN FARM LOAN ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO FACILITATE AND INCREASE THE EXTENSION OF CREDIT TO FARMERS
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PRO

Agnes Campbell Macphail

Progressive

Miss MACPHAIL:

Do the rules of the house apply only to hon. members on this side, or do they apply on all sides?

Topic:   CANADIAN FARM LOAN ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO FACILITATE AND INCREASE THE EXTENSION OF CREDIT TO FARMERS
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?

Donald Sutherland

The CHAIRMAN (Mr. Smith Cumberland) :

They apply on all sides of the house.

Topic:   CANADIAN FARM LOAN ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO FACILITATE AND INCREASE THE EXTENSION OF CREDIT TO FARMERS
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CON

Edgar Nelson Rhodes (Minister of Finance and Receiver General)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. RHODES:

I leave it to the judgment of the committee to decide as to whether or not I am one who is in the habit of interrupting either from .my seat or after rising. I have always endeavoured to listen to what every hon. .member has had to say, and I have endeavoured to conduct myself with a degree of courtesy. May I say to the hon. member for Bow River that my skin both inside and out is, so far as I know, perfectly normal, and that I have not the slightest feeling of ruffle-ment. His suggestion is not going to deter me from asserting the position I have the right to assert either in matters of discussion or in the application of the rules of the house.

Having said so much I hope the hon. member will accept my observations, that he will feel that the hon. member for Macleod is quite capable of looking after his own interests and does not have to call upon the hon. member for Bow River to come to his rescue, especially on an occasion when such aid is entirely uncalled for and when he is in friendly hands.

Topic:   CANADIAN FARM LOAN ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO FACILITATE AND INCREASE THE EXTENSION OF CREDIT TO FARMERS
Permalink
LIB-PRO

Arthur-Lucien Beaubien

Liberal Progressive

Mr. BEAUBIEN:

Mr. Chairman, a little

while ago, before the flare up the minister intimated that the field for borrowing was practically nil, and I believe he indicated that the reason for the limitation of the field in which the farmer might borrow was found in the moratoria of the different provinces.

Topic:   CANADIAN FARM LOAN ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO FACILITATE AND INCREASE THE EXTENSION OF CREDIT TO FARMERS
Permalink
CON

Edgar Nelson Rhodes (Minister of Finance and Receiver General)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. RHODES:

I hope the hon. member

will permit me to state that I did not assign that as the sole reason. I said that was a very important, if not the most important reason.

Topic:   CANADIAN FARM LOAN ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO FACILITATE AND INCREASE THE EXTENSION OF CREDIT TO FARMERS
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LIB-PRO

Arthur-Lucien Beaubien

Liberal Progressive

Mr. BEAUBIEN:

I am pleased the minister has made the correction. One of the contributing factors of limitation of the farmers' borrowing powers has 'been the debt adjustment acts of the different provinces.

Farm Loan Act

The de'bt adjustment act of the province of Manitoba, with which I am most familiar, does nob go as far as the Farmers' Creditors Arrangement Act. All the debt adjustment act of that province means is a postponement of the conditions; they have no power to write down. It is simply a postponement, and eveiry person who comes under the act in the province of Manitoba must put his cards on the table aDd give a true statement of his affairs. If he does not do so the debt adjustment board will not protect him. We know however that the farmers in western Canada who are not and never have been operating under a debt adjustment act at certain periods of the year want to borrow small sums of money to buy twine or other articles connected with production, and they find it impossible to borrow the small sums necessary. They cannot borrow it from the banks-and may I say I do not blame the banks. The condition is that a farmer with one hundred or two hundred acres of grain ready for the binder cannot get S30 or $40 to buy twine. But when the resolution was before the house I took the stand that the amendment to the Farm Loan Act should be complementary to the Farmers' Creditors Arrangement Act. I stated the impression had been created in western Canada that the Farm Loan Act of 1934 was complementary to the Farmers' Creditors Arrangement Act, and many farmers were under the impression that if they went before a receiver and had their debts adjusted they could, go to the farm loan board and borrow the amount due after the readjustment had been made. They were further of the opinion that if they had to go before a board of review, such board having power to make a compromise despite the views of the creditors or debtors, they could use the farm loan board for purposes of consolidating their debts. The minister rather doubted that that opinion could exist. The minister distinctly said that the Farm Loan Act was going to be run along business lines and he could see no reason why the farmers in any part of the country should get the opinion that these amendments to the Farm Loan Act would be complementary to the debt adjustment act. But I have the Prime Minister with me. It is not very often, but I have him with me this time, for here is what he said in 1934 when he proposed the resolution that it is expedient to amend the Canadian Farm Loan Act:

I endeavoured to indicate to the house this afternoon in a broad and general way that this bill is complementary to the bill dealing with the adjustment of farm indebtedness.

Then further on he makes this statement:

I also indicated that the measure founded upon the resolution contemplates that additional advances to those already provided for in the provisions of the Canadian Farm Loan Act may be made, to enable a scheme of composition or arrangement to be carried into effect.

I know the Minister of Finance is a fair-minded man, except when some hon. member gets under his skin, and I do not think he could get any other impression from the words of the Prime Minister than what the farmers in western Canada got, namely, that immediately the machinery created by this parliament to make a debt compromise was available, together with this other machinery, providing 870,000,000 or $90,000,000, the farmer could go and use this other piece of machinery and consolidate his debts. I am still of opinion-I have not changed my mind at all-that if the Farm Loan Act and the debt adjustment act are going to work the benefits for the farmer that the minister and the government expect, they must work in conjunction. If they do not I doubt very much the success of these two pieces of legislation.

May I say this to the minister before taking my seat? The echoes of the Farm Loan Act and the debt adjustment act were heard throughout the country last year. In fact, politicians were going around saying that the farmers could borrow from the farm loan board at no more than five per cent interest. Now in 1935, with an election on the horizon, the minister can readily imagine what the supporters of the present government will be spreading around in the country to the farmers. They will point out that the legislation that was brought down last year was amended this year, increasing the amount available, and the minister who is a fair-minded man generally, can imagine what will be broadcast to the farmer, giving the impression much more strongly even than last year that both acts are designed to work together.

Topic:   CANADIAN FARM LOAN ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO FACILITATE AND INCREASE THE EXTENSION OF CREDIT TO FARMERS
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CON

Edgar Nelson Rhodes (Minister of Finance and Receiver General)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. RHODES:

Mr. Chairman, I do not think it is necessary for the hon. member for Provencher to quote the Prime Minister in support of his assertion that the amendment to the Farm Loan Act wa3 intended to be complementary to the Farmers' Creditors Arrangement Act.

Topic:   CANADIAN FARM LOAN ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO FACILITATE AND INCREASE THE EXTENSION OF CREDIT TO FARMERS
Permalink
LIB-PRO

Arthur-Lucien Beaubien

Liberal Progressive

Mr. BEAUBIEN:

I thought he was a good authority.

Topic:   CANADIAN FARM LOAN ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO FACILITATE AND INCREASE THE EXTENSION OF CREDIT TO FARMERS
Permalink

February 25, 1935