May 2, 1934

CON

Franklin White Turnbull

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. TURNBULL:

What he did say was that what the country was interested in was not so much further inquiry-

Topic:   MARKETING ACT
Subtopic:   ORGANIZATION TO IMPROVE METHODS AND PRACTICES IN MARKETING NATURAL PRODUCTS
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LIB

Ian Alistair Mackenzie

Liberal

Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver):

Mr. Chairman, section 293 of the rules says that no member can refer to any debate of the same session on any question not then under discussion.

Topic:   MARKETING ACT
Subtopic:   ORGANIZATION TO IMPROVE METHODS AND PRACTICES IN MARKETING NATURAL PRODUCTS
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CON

Finlay MacDonald

Conservative (1867-1942)

The CHAIRMAN (Mr. MacDonald, Cape Breton):

That is perfectly right.

Topic:   MARKETING ACT
Subtopic:   ORGANIZATION TO IMPROVE METHODS AND PRACTICES IN MARKETING NATURAL PRODUCTS
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CON

Franklin White Turnbull

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. TURNBULL:

I quite understand the very earnest desire of hon. gentlemen opposite-

Topic:   MARKETING ACT
Subtopic:   ORGANIZATION TO IMPROVE METHODS AND PRACTICES IN MARKETING NATURAL PRODUCTS
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LIB

Ian Alistair Mackenzie

Liberal

Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver):

To keep the rules.

Topic:   MARKETING ACT
Subtopic:   ORGANIZATION TO IMPROVE METHODS AND PRACTICES IN MARKETING NATURAL PRODUCTS
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CON

Franklin White Turnbull

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. TURNBULL:

-to invoke the rules for the purpose of preventing their inconsistencies being, shown to the house.

Topic:   MARKETING ACT
Subtopic:   ORGANIZATION TO IMPROVE METHODS AND PRACTICES IN MARKETING NATURAL PRODUCTS
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LIB

Ian Alistair Mackenzie

Liberal

Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver):

I rise to a point of order. The hon. member is out of order in imputing motives to other members.

Topic:   MARKETING ACT
Subtopic:   ORGANIZATION TO IMPROVE METHODS AND PRACTICES IN MARKETING NATURAL PRODUCTS
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CON

Franklin White Turnbull

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. TURNBULL:

But the fact is that on a previous occasion the opposition took the view, with respect to an important commission, that inquiry was not necessary at all but that what the country wanted was action in regard to a matter everyone knew about.

Topic:   MARKETING ACT
Subtopic:   ORGANIZATION TO IMPROVE METHODS AND PRACTICES IN MARKETING NATURAL PRODUCTS
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LIB

John Campbell Elliott

Liberal

Mr. ELLIOTT:

Mr. Chairman, the hon. gentleman is ignoring your ruling in referring to a matter which you have decided shall not be discussed.

Topic:   MARKETING ACT
Subtopic:   ORGANIZATION TO IMPROVE METHODS AND PRACTICES IN MARKETING NATURAL PRODUCTS
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CON

Finlay MacDonald

Conservative (1867-1942)

The CHAIRMAN (Mr. MacDonald, Cape Breton):

The rule is that no member must:

-refer to any debate of the same session on any question not then under discussion.

Topic:   MARKETING ACT
Subtopic:   ORGANIZATION TO IMPROVE METHODS AND PRACTICES IN MARKETING NATURAL PRODUCTS
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CON

Franklin White Turnbull

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. TURNBULL:

With regard to the matter at present under discussion, the producers referred to by my hon. friend from East Hamilton will have every opportunity of having their interests considered when the boards are being set up and when there is a

Marketing Act

concrete plan to be presented. Moreover, the producers themselves will present that plan and they will be the ones who will initiate it. Their opportunities to be heard are there. This is only an enabling bill to make it possible for certain machinery to be set up, and to adopt recommendations that may be made by producer organizations with regard to the boards to handle the marketing of their products. I fail to see why it should be necessary to have a lot of witnesses come before parliament and dilate at 'length on the question whether or not we should pass enabling legislation to provide for the setting up of the boards. This bill does not set up the boards, though it empowers the minister under certain circumstances to do so. Why we should have witnesses to inquire as to whether the producers should be allowed to set up boards is another question, but there should be no question in committee as to what the nature of the boards should be.

Topic:   MARKETING ACT
Subtopic:   ORGANIZATION TO IMPROVE METHODS AND PRACTICES IN MARKETING NATURAL PRODUCTS
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CON

Finlay MacDonald

Conservative (1867-1942)

The CHAIRMAN (Mr. MacDonald, Cape Breton):

I have already ruled that this discussion is entirely out of order. I would ask hon. members to confine their remarks to the clause under consideration.

Topic:   MARKETING ACT
Subtopic:   ORGANIZATION TO IMPROVE METHODS AND PRACTICES IN MARKETING NATURAL PRODUCTS
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LIB

William Henry Moore

Liberal

Mr. MOORE (Ontario):

Before proceeding to the examination of section 1 may I ask the minister whether he has information to furnish this committee as to the results of similar legislation throughout the world. I wish to associate myself with the remarks of the hon. member for Gloucester. I think we should cooperate with the minister and the government in turning out a workmanlike act, but personally I feel that I am an incompetent workman. Now, this is not new legislation; there are other acts of the same sort throughout the world; they have existed for years. Is the minister in a position to provide us with information regarding the results of such legislation? It seems to me that we ought to have that information before us. If there ever was a good illustration of the evils of government intervention in business it is our position to-day, proceeding as we are to discuss a measure of this importance without having proper information before us. We are entitled to have that information. Perhaps it will be recalled that, speaking on the general principle of the bill, I urged that the government should have a mandate. That apparently they think they do not require. Now, however, I urge that the minister and the government, before we proceed to work out the details of the bill, should inform us as to what has happened under similar legislation throughout the world.

Topic:   MARKETING ACT
Subtopic:   ORGANIZATION TO IMPROVE METHODS AND PRACTICES IN MARKETING NATURAL PRODUCTS
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CON

Robert Weir (Minister of Agriculture)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. WEIR (Melfort):

Perhaps the hon.

gentleman will realize the magnitude of the question he has asked, because in his speech in the debate he referred I believe to a cotton monopoly, to coffee, sugar and a number of other marketing schemes of that sort. I suggest that it is not very complimentary to imply that we did not give any thought to the different marketing schemes that have been in vogue and to the question whether or not they have been satisfactory. A great deal of consideration has been given to different marketing schemes, but before we could attribute to any particular phase of any marketing act the failure of that act we should have to be in possession of complete information regarding all the conditions to which the working out of the act was subject. For example, suppose we had two cars, one black and one green, the black car with a velocity twice that of the green car: we could not say that the difference in velocity was due to the particular quality of blackness in one of the cars. That was the principle that appealed to me with regard to the hon. member's speech the other day, the precision with which he spoke and the evidence he gave that he had studied this question, as indicated by his ability to pick one thing out of each act and generalize on this particular, instead of coming to his conclusion after placing before us each part of any act and showing that it was that one factor on which he hitched the failure of the act.

With reference to this bill, we shall be glad to give throughout the discussion information with regard to the various acts that have been passed; but I think the hon. gentleman will agree that it is unfair to expect anyone to give a complete analysis of each of these acts and to indicate all the conditions under which it has operated. We cannot be expected to say to what particular element in any act failure, if there has been failure, is attributable. We have studied the conditions under which various acts have operated but they are so different from the obstacles which we are trying to overcome that we do not think any of these acts are altogether applicable.

The bon. member for East Hamilton thought it would be a gain to have witnesses brought forward to give their opinion regarding this bill. As the hon. member for Regina has pointed out however, the producers, whether of agricultural commodities or of the products of sea or lake or forest, will themselves put forward a scheme which they regard as satisfactory, and no other scheme will be forced upon them. I feel,

Marketing Act

with the hon. member for Gloucester and others who have spoken, that the field covered, so far as products are concerned, is so wide that it would be impossible for us to have expert information regarding each of these industries. But surely this committee, composed as it is of members chosen from their constituencies by a majority of the people, and living in those constituencies, must know better than anyone else the conditions of the industries, the work and the needs of the people. For example, I believe that the hon. member for New Westminster knows quite well the desires of the people in his constituency with reference to the marketing of their products. The hon. member for Vancouver Centre stated that he did not believe this bill was the one asked for by the fruit growers of the Okanagan and the milk producers of Fraser river valley. All I can say is this, that we have been in consultation with different representatives from those various organizations, and it is my understanding that this bill, properly and sanely applied, will meet what they are asking for, and it cannot be applied unless they ask for it.

Topic:   MARKETING ACT
Subtopic:   ORGANIZATION TO IMPROVE METHODS AND PRACTICES IN MARKETING NATURAL PRODUCTS
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IND

Alan Webster Neill

Independent

Mr. NEILL:

What about clause 9?

Topic:   MARKETING ACT
Subtopic:   ORGANIZATION TO IMPROVE METHODS AND PRACTICES IN MARKETING NATURAL PRODUCTS
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LIB

Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain

Liberal

Mr. CASGRAIN:

What about clause 9, the power of the minister?

Topic:   MARKETING ACT
Subtopic:   ORGANIZATION TO IMPROVE METHODS AND PRACTICES IN MARKETING NATURAL PRODUCTS
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CON

Robert Weir (Minister of Agriculture)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. WEIR (Melfort):

Clause 9 does not mean that any board will be set up in opposition to the wishes of an industry; no person would be absurd enough to think it would.

Topic:   MARKETING ACT
Subtopic:   ORGANIZATION TO IMPROVE METHODS AND PRACTICES IN MARKETING NATURAL PRODUCTS
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LIB

Wilfred Hanbury

Liberal

Mr. HANBURY:

Why not restrict it, then?

Topic:   MARKETING ACT
Subtopic:   ORGANIZATION TO IMPROVE METHODS AND PRACTICES IN MARKETING NATURAL PRODUCTS
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CON

Robert Weir (Minister of Agriculture)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. WEIR (Melfort):

When I was interrupted I was stating that the hon. member for Vancouver Centre can learn from the industries in British Columbia, whether the fruit growers of the Okanagan or the Fraser river valley milk producers, what their objections are to this bill. Copies have been sent out to those organizations; they have had ample time to discuss and investigate fully the provisions of the bill and they have made submissions to us with reference to it. I maintain that under the original draft of the bill they can- do everything they have asked for to meet their needs, but because |here is a difference of opinion as to the meaning of the wording I have, as I stated before, prepared amendments to clarify those clauses but in no way to make any radical changes in the principle of the bill itself. Therefore I repeat that because of the wide range covered in the bill and the impossibility of calling expert evidence from far afield, it would be better to

have the bill considered in committee of the whole, especially when we should, I think, do ourselves the credit of admitting that any hon. member should be conversant with conditions in his own constituency. Speaking for myself I think I am conversant with the conditions and the needs of the people in the constituency of Melfort in the Carrot river valley. If not, I can easily make myself aware of what their desires are.

I will admit I gave serious consideration to the advisability of submitting the bill to the committee on agriculture, but the very discussion we have had here is, I think, one of the best reasons we could have for continuing the discussion in this committee where everyone will have an opportunity of expressing his opinion; he can bring forward any objections that the industry in his constituency raises and I am quite sure the hon. member for Vancouver Centre can put the objections of his constituents before this committee just as ably if not a good deal more so, than the growers or the members of the industry concerned themselves can do before the committee on agriculture.

Topic:   MARKETING ACT
Subtopic:   ORGANIZATION TO IMPROVE METHODS AND PRACTICES IN MARKETING NATURAL PRODUCTS
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LIB

William Lyon Mackenzie King (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Liberal

Mr. MACKENZIE KING:

The minister

said, I think, he had some amendments he was going to submit. I would ask him whether he would not consider placing them on Hansard before the committee rises this afternoon so they would then be available to members for further consideration.

Topic:   MARKETING ACT
Subtopic:   ORGANIZATION TO IMPROVE METHODS AND PRACTICES IN MARKETING NATURAL PRODUCTS
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May 2, 1934