April 24, 1934

PRIVATE BILLS

FIRST READING-SENATE BILLS


Bill No. 59, for the relief of Archibald Bruce Elliott Smart.-Mr. Bell (St. Antoine). Bill No. 60, for the relief of Lilac Violet Grumbell Reid.-Mr. Casselman. Bill No. 61, for the relief of Lily Archer Watson.-Mr. Bell (St. Antoine). Bill No. 62, for the relief of Annie Isabel Tinning Meldrum.-Mr. Bell (St. Antoine). Bill No. 63, for the relief of Lois Theresa Malcolm.-Mr. Bell (St. Antoine).


CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS

WASHOUT AT MATAPEDIA, BONAVENTURE COUNTY


On the orders of the day:


LIB

Charles Marcil

Liberal

Hon. CHARLES MARCIL (Bonaventure):

I wish to thank the Minister of Railways and Canals for his kind attention to the matter to which I directed his notice the other day regarding the interruption of service at Matapedia on the Canadian National railway. I understand from press dispatches that there is some improvement. I would like to know from the minister whether there is any further information.

Topic:   CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS
Subtopic:   WASHOUT AT MATAPEDIA, BONAVENTURE COUNTY
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CON

Robert James Manion (Minister of Railways and Canals)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Hon. R. J. MANION (Minister of Rail-waj^s and Canals):

I have been more or less in touch with the matter and I have sent to my hon. friend and also to the hon. member for Gloucester (Mr. Veniot), who have been inquiring, a number of statements regarding it. To-day the report from Montreal is that the flood at Matapedia has subsided, the track has been repaired and the trains are running on regular schedule.

Topic:   CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS
Subtopic:   WASHOUT AT MATAPEDIA, BONAVENTURE COUNTY
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MARKETING ACT

ORGANIZATION TO IMPROVE METHODS AND PRACTICES IN MARKETING NATURAL PRODUCTS


The house resumed from Friday, April 20, consideration of the motion of Mr. Weir (Melfort) for the second reading of Bill No. 51, to improve the methods and practices of marketing of natural products in Canada and 2472 COMMONS Marketing Act-Mr. Mackenzie King in export trade, and to make further provisions in connection therewith, and the amendment thereto of Mr. Mackenzie King.


LIB

William Lyon Mackenzie King (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Liberal

Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Leader of the Opposition):

Mr. Speaker, on a point of order; when on Thursday the 19th instant this measure came up for second reading, the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. Stevens), at the outset of his remarks, in reply to mine, raised a point of order. This will be found on page 2352 of Hansard:

Hon. H. IT. Stevens (Minister of Trade and Commerce): Before I address myself, Mr. Speaker, to a discussion of the measure before the house I should like to raise the point of order whether the amendment submitted by the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Mackenzie King) is in order, inasmuch as it constitutes what might be termed a declaration of policy, instead of offering reasons why consideration of the bill should not be proceeded with or should be postponed, or proposing something else germane to the actual motion before the house. I do not raise the point of order with the view of getting an immediate ruling but would request Your Honour to give it consideration, and my remarks also will serve to give hon. gentlemen opposite notice of the point of order.

What I wish to point out now is that thus far there has been no opportunity to discuss the point of order which has been raised and I hope before Your Honour gives a ruling you will see that such an opportunity is given to hon. members.

Topic:   MARKETING ACT
Subtopic:   ORGANIZATION TO IMPROVE METHODS AND PRACTICES IN MARKETING NATURAL PRODUCTS
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CON

Pierre Édouard Blondin (Speaker of the Senate)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. SPEAKER:

I think this would be a proper time to discuss the point of order and if any hon. member wishes to address the chair on it, I shall be glad to hear him. I have been giving the matter a good deal of attention since it has come up.

Topic:   MARKETING ACT
Subtopic:   ORGANIZATION TO IMPROVE METHODS AND PRACTICES IN MARKETING NATURAL PRODUCTS
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LIB

William Lyon Mackenzie King (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Liberal

Mr. MACKENZIE KING:

I would like to submit that the amendment is entirely in order. In doing so I wish first of all to distinguish clearly between the purposes and the principles of the bill. The Prime Minister (Mr. Bennett) himself noted the distinction between purpose and principle when in speaking on this measure in the house on March 26 he said as reported on page 1809 of Hansard:

In moving his resolution the minister is not supposed to do more than to state the general purposes of the measure. On the introduction of his bill, when asked, as I understand the rules he should, he may give a succinct statement indicating the general purposes of the legislation, and the principles to be crystallized into legislative form.

I draw attention to the distinction which the Prime Minister very properly made, and at that time drew to the attention of the house,

between the purposes of the legislation and the principles to be crystallized into legislative form. The Prime Minister further said as reported on page 1810:

The motion for second reading will involve the approval or the disapproval of the general principle indicated by the bill.

A little further on he said:

But general legislation, upon which the government has determined its policy, is usually submitted to a committee of the whole house.

And the government pursuing the intention therein expressed has in mind I understand submitting the bill to a committee of the whole house rather than sending it to a standing committee. In other words, the government has decided its policy as it is expressed in the legislation, and there is not open for further discussion in committee the question of policy with respect to its provisions as was the case for example in connection with the bill respecting the creation of a central bank. In that case the Minister of Finance made it quite clear that the question whether there was to bo public or private ownership of shares, or public or private control, was a perfectly open matter, something that could be discussed in the committee to which the bill would be sent. But in this case, in the light of what the Prime Minister has said, the government has indicated by its action in not permitting the bill to go to a standing committee, and the reasons given by the Prime Minister therefor, that the principles embodied in the legislation indicate the government's final policy.

At the time of submitting the amendment I was careful to look up Your Honour's previous rulings in the house, to see that the amendment that was moved would be in order. I would like to read the amendment itself and then Your Honour's latest ruling on a question of order in the case of an amendment on second reading, to see if the amendment does not give ample evidence of being entirely in order. The amendment is:

This house, while prepared to support legislation for assisting the orderly marketing of natural products, is unalterably opposed to the enactment of any compulsory measure which delegates to unnamed and undetermined individuals, groups or organizations, sweeping powers over the production and trade and commerce of the nation, and which confers upon a minister of the crown and upon the governor in council unprecedented authority and unusual powers to restrict production, and interprovincial, inter-imperial, and foreign trade as regards both exports and imports, as well as other autocratic powers.

Your Honour in ruling the other evening in regard to a measure before the house, the last I think on which Your Honour gave a

Marketing Act-Mr. M-ackenzie King

ruling, namely that relating to the freight rates bill, drew attention under standing order 75 in regard to second reading to citation 755, as set forth in Beauchesne which is as follows:

It is also competent to a member who desires to place on record any special reasons for not agreeing to the second reading of a bill, to move as an amendment to the question, a resolution declaratory of some principle adverse to, or differing from, the principles, policy, or provisions of the. bill, ...

My purpose in moving that amendment was to give special reasons for not agreeing to the second reading of the bill, and in so doing I therefore moved an amendment which would be declaratory of some principle which is adverse to the principles and policy and provisions of the bill.

As to what are the principles, policies and provisions of the bill, there can be no mistake, once one looks at the measure. As I have said, the purpose of the bill as set forth in the title is to improve the methods and practices involved in the marketing of natural products and export trade by means of regulation. Regulation is a method, a process, a matter of procedure, not a principle. Regulation is a purpose which all parties in this house hold in common. That is not the principle of the bill, any more than the establishment of a dominion marketing board as such is the principle of the bill. The purpose of the bill is that of regulating and improving production-

Topic:   MARKETING ACT
Subtopic:   ORGANIZATION TO IMPROVE METHODS AND PRACTICES IN MARKETING NATURAL PRODUCTS
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?

Mr GUTHRIE:

If I may ask a question; suppose my right hon. friend's amendment were to carry, what would become of the bill?

Topic:   MARKETING ACT
Subtopic:   ORGANIZATION TO IMPROVE METHODS AND PRACTICES IN MARKETING NATURAL PRODUCTS
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LIB

William Lyon Mackenzie King (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Liberal

Mr. MACKENZIE KING:

The second

reading could be revived later on. The amendment declares, in the meantime, for its being based on a principle that is adverse to that which hon. gentlemen opposite have embodied in the legislation. The amendment would mean that the bill would not now be read a second time et cetera. May I go on and refer to the question of the principle? Without any question the principle of this bill-one of its principles-is to take away from parliament and to entrust to bodies delegated for the purpose the right of making regulations which would have the force of law and be enforceable by fine and imprisonment; to take that power away from parliament itself and give it to other bodies still to be created. That is a principle that from our point of view completely undermines the authority of parliament. It is, I contend, a principle that should be maintained above all others by the House of Commons. But the bill goes still further and gives to the governor in

council power to restrict trade, to prohibit both imports and exports by order in council. Our contention is that the regulation of trade is a duty which should be performed by this parliament, not delegated to any governor in council. The governor in council should have no more right to place an embargo on exports and imports or to restrict importation or exportation of commodities than to do away entirely with the tariff. The control of the tariff should remain with this parliament. The amendment is declaratory in the clearest terms of the assertion of the willingness of the opposition to have parliament pass the necessary measures for the regulation of trade and marketing, but it contemplates having this done by the House of Commons itself, combined, of course, with the Senate.

In case there should be any question whatever as to principles underlying the present bill being those of taking away from parliament control over trade and over production, also over expenditures arising out of the legislation, and being the principles underlying limited production and restricted trade and the creation of monopolies, let me refer specifically to certain provisions; because as the rule I have just read points out, an amendment may declare principles adverse to or differing from the principles, policies or provisions of the bill. These are some of its provisions. Section 3 provides:

(1) The governor in council may establish a board to be known as the dominion marketing board to regulate the marketing of natural products as hereinafter provided.

With this should be read subsection (a) and

(f) of section 4 which shows how it is "hereinafter provided."

(a) to regulate the time and place of marketing the regulated product, and to determine the manner of distribution and the quantity and quality or grade of the regulated product that shall be marketed by any person at any time, and to prohibit the marketing of any of the regulated product of any grade or quality;

(f) to require any or all persons engaged in the production or marketing of the regulated product to register their names, addresses, and occupations with the board, or to obtain a licence from the board, and such licence shall be subject to cancellation by the board for violation of any provision of this act or regulation made thereunder;

Then section 5 provides:

(1) A representative number of persons engaged in the production and marketing or the production or marketing of a natural product may petition the governor in council to approve a scheme for the regulation of the marketing of such natural product by a local board under the supervision of the board.

(3) Upon receipt of a report from the board recommending the approval of the scheme as submitted or as amended by the board, the minister may recommend the approval thereof,

Marketing Act-Mr. Mackenzie King

and the governor in council may thereupon approve the said scheme and fix the date when the same shall be effective.

Section 6 provides that:

(1) When a scheme has been approved by the governor in council, the minister shall give public notice thereof in the Canada Gazette.

(2) The provisions of the scheme as approved shall have the force of law, and the local board shall, from the date of the publication of the said notice of approval, be a body politic and corporate.

And again section 9:

(1) Notwithstanding that no petition in relation to any natural product has been filed, the minister may, if he is satisfied that the trade and commerce in the said product is injuriously affected by the lack of a local board to regulate such product, at any time propose a scheme for the marketing of such product, and the governor in council may approve of such scheme and authorize the board to administer such scheme directly or through any agency which it may establish. Such scheme shall continue in force until terminated by the governor in council.

12. (1) The governor in council may, by order or regulation published in the Canada Gazette, restrict the importation into Canada of any natural product which enters Canada in competition with a regulated product, and the governor in council shall have power to make regulations to provide for the licensing by the minister of importers, or otherwise to enforce any order made hereunder.

(2) The governor in council may, by order or regulation published in the Canada Gazette,-

(a) provide that any natural product shall not be exported from Canada without a licence;

(b) prescribe the forms of such licences, the terms and condit:ons thereof and the persons who shall have authority to issue the same;

(c) impose penalties for breach of any such order or regulation or of any licence issued thereunder, and, generally, make such provision or authorize the doing of such acts or things as may in his discretion be deemed necessary or expedient for giving full effect to any orders, regulations or licences made or issued hereunder.

Then I refer to section 14:

14. Every person who fails to comply with any order or determination of the board or of a local board or any regulation of the governor in council shall be guilty of an offence and punishable on summary conviction with a fine of not less than twenty-five dollars and not more than five hundred dollars, or to imprisonment not exceeding three months, or to both fine and imprisonment.

In part 2, which deals with investigations, it will be found that very similar powers are given to bodies as yet undetermined. I submit that the reading of these sections leaves no doubt whatever that the principles underlying this measure are first that of limiting production, second that of restricting trade and third doing both these things by creating monopolies with regard to certain products that are

to be marketed. And fourth, all this is to be done, not by an act of this parliament which will leave the matter in a known and finally determined condition when the bill is signed by the representative of the crown and becomes law but by giving these powers to bodies that are still to be brought into existence and giving to the governor in council, rather than having held within the control of this parliament, the power to restrict both imports and exports and the control of all expenditures under the act. Our position, Mr. Speaker, is that we are wholly favourable to the regulation of trade to improve marketing conditions, but that the regulation and marketing should be by act of this parliament in accordance with parliamentary procedure and practice and not by bodies other than parliament itself.

In conclusion may I by way of illustrating what I have in mind direct attention to the amendment that was moved on the second reading of the Unemployment and Farm Relief Continuance Act, Bill No. 24, which amendment came before the house on March 30, 1932, and which Your Honour permitted to remain before the house and to be voted upon as entirely in order. I submit that the present amendment as regards the points at issue, is on all fours with that amendment, which was moved by the hon. member for Vancouver Centre (Mr. Mackenzie) and seconded by the hon. member for Shelburne-Yarmouth (Mr. Ralston). The name of the bill was Unemployment and Farm Relief, that was its purpose. The amendment, which was directed not at its purpose, or name, but at the principles upon which it was based, was as follows:

That this bill be not now read a second time but that it be resolved:

1. That this house has been from the commencement of the session and continues to be ready and willing to consider and vote without delay any money or grant, submitted and asked for by the government for relieving distress and providing employment throughout Canada.

2. That this house cannot surrender the rights of the people of Canada, through their representatives in parliament, to maintain direct control over matters of taxation and expenditure, nor vest in the governor in council or in any other body absolute and despotic powers under the guise of dealing with peace, order and good government, particularly while parliament is in session.

I repeat that as regards the points involved in this discussion the amendment now before the house in regard to this marketing act is on all fours with the amendment which was held to be in order in 1932.

Topic:   MARKETING ACT
Subtopic:   ORGANIZATION TO IMPROVE METHODS AND PRACTICES IN MARKETING NATURAL PRODUCTS
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CON

Richard Bedford Bennett (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council; Secretary of State for External Affairs)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BENNETT:

Surely the right hon.

gentleman does not mean that.

Marketing Act-Mr. Stevens

Topic:   MARKETING ACT
Subtopic:   ORGANIZATION TO IMPROVE METHODS AND PRACTICES IN MARKETING NATURAL PRODUCTS
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LIB

William Lyon Mackenzie King (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Liberal

Mr. MACKENZIE KING:

I do.

Topic:   MARKETING ACT
Subtopic:   ORGANIZATION TO IMPROVE METHODS AND PRACTICES IN MARKETING NATURAL PRODUCTS
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CON

Richard Bedford Bennett (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council; Secretary of State for External Affairs)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BENNETT:

The right hon. gentleman has just read that previous amendment, which contains the words " that this bill be not now read a second time." There is nothing like that in the amendment now before the house.

Topic:   MARKETING ACT
Subtopic:   ORGANIZATION TO IMPROVE METHODS AND PRACTICES IN MARKETING NATURAL PRODUCTS
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LIB

William Lyon Mackenzie King (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Liberal

Mr. MACKENZIE KING:

There is a

declaration of principle adverse to that set forth in this bill.

Topic:   MARKETING ACT
Subtopic:   ORGANIZATION TO IMPROVE METHODS AND PRACTICES IN MARKETING NATURAL PRODUCTS
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April 24, 1934