April 10, 1934

LIB

Charles Edward Bothwell

Liberal

Mr. BOTHWELL:

What is the amount of the lien notes outstanding in Saskatchewan for direct relief, and what justification is there for holding these notes, when direct relief was administered in other provinces without the taking of notes?

.Mr. GORDON: Any notes taken in Saskatchewan were taken by the provincial government. I do not know the amount of the notes, but I have taken up with the provincial government the question of any adjustment that will be made if these notes are paid. The hon. member is however quite right; so far as I am aware, notes were not taken in the other provinces in the way in which they were taken in Saskatchewan. I am advised that in many instances, particularly in the southern part of the province, or the so-called drought area, where people were not bankrupt in the sense that they had no liquid assets, but had merely fallen upon misadventure by reason of crop failures, they requested that the relief granted be treated as an advance and tendered their notes for the assistance given. I have not the total amount of these notes, but the province will make an adjustment with the dominion government as and when any of them are paid.

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT AND FARM RELIEF
Subtopic:   BILL IN TERMS GENERALLY OF RELIEF ACT, 1933, WITH PROVISION RESPECTING DELAYED RELIEF ACCOUNTS
Permalink
LIB

Charles Edward Bothwell

Liberal

Mr. BOTHWELL:

A part of these notes

will be payable to the dominion government. Is it the intention of the dominion to accept that money or to refund it to the people who have executed the notes?

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT AND FARM RELIEF
Subtopic:   BILL IN TERMS GENERALLY OF RELIEF ACT, 1933, WITH PROVISION RESPECTING DELAYED RELIEF ACCOUNTS
Permalink
CON

George Gordon

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. GORDON:

If any of the notes are

paid the total sum will be paid to the province of Saskatchewan and then an adjustment will be made as to any dominion portion of the notes, and that money will be refunded and will go into the consolidated revenue fund.

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT AND FARM RELIEF
Subtopic:   BILL IN TERMS GENERALLY OF RELIEF ACT, 1933, WITH PROVISION RESPECTING DELAYED RELIEF ACCOUNTS
Permalink
LIB

Charles Edward Bothwell

Liberal

Mr. BOTHWELL:

Do I understand the

minister to say that it will be refunded?

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT AND FARM RELIEF
Subtopic:   BILL IN TERMS GENERALLY OF RELIEF ACT, 1933, WITH PROVISION RESPECTING DELAYED RELIEF ACCOUNTS
Permalink
CON

George Gordon

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. GORDON:

Yes.

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT AND FARM RELIEF
Subtopic:   BILL IN TERMS GENERALLY OF RELIEF ACT, 1933, WITH PROVISION RESPECTING DELAYED RELIEF ACCOUNTS
Permalink
LIB

Charles Edward Bothwell

Liberal

Mr. BOTHWELL:

To the persons who

pay the money?

Relief Act, 1934

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT AND FARM RELIEF
Subtopic:   BILL IN TERMS GENERALLY OF RELIEF ACT, 1933, WITH PROVISION RESPECTING DELAYED RELIEF ACCOUNTS
Permalink
CON

George Gordon

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. GORDON:

Oh no; I am afraid I

have not made myself clear. The money, if paid at all, will be paid by the person who was assisted through the agency of the dominion government and the government of the province of Saskatchewan. If and when any of these moneys are repaid then an adjustment will be made between the two governments and any other contributors concerned, such as the municipalities.

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT AND FARM RELIEF
Subtopic:   BILL IN TERMS GENERALLY OF RELIEF ACT, 1933, WITH PROVISION RESPECTING DELAYED RELIEF ACCOUNTS
Permalink
LIB

Charles Edward Bothwell

Liberal

Mr. BOTHWELL:

That does not answer

the question. The position is this. The dominion has contributed a share of the moneys that went for direct relief in various provinces. In Saskatchewan the recipients of that direct relief in the rural areas were required to give notes. These notes were given to secure not only moneys advanced by the province but also moneys advanced by the dominion. When the recipient pays the note, the dominion government is entitled to an adjustment from the province and will get a part of the money. What justification can there be for the dominion holding thait money from the individual in Saskatchewan, while the government receives nothing from the individual in any other province?

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT AND FARM RELIEF
Subtopic:   BILL IN TERMS GENERALLY OF RELIEF ACT, 1933, WITH PROVISION RESPECTING DELAYED RELIEF ACCOUNTS
Permalink
CON

Richard Bedford Bennett (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council; Secretary of State for External Affairs)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BENNETT:

I think the hon. gentleman is confusing two things as he did the other evening in connection with wheat and never withdrew his statement. The truth is that when the dominion paid the whole amount as it did in 1930 and 1931 in the territory that was completely devastated, the people living there, having property that had once been very valuable, suggested that they give notes. Why I do not know, but they did. That information was communicated to us and they did give notes. Latterly they have not been giving notes for direct relief. The extent of my knowledge-this is before the present minister took office-is that it was only in the territory in which the crop was completely destroyed that they gave notes. If they make payments of the notes, .the money will be dealt with as may be thought desirable, but I do not think the hon. gentleman can make very much political capital out of it yet.

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT AND FARM RELIEF
Subtopic:   BILL IN TERMS GENERALLY OF RELIEF ACT, 1933, WITH PROVISION RESPECTING DELAYED RELIEF ACCOUNTS
Permalink
LIB

Charles Edward Bothwell

Liberal

Mr. BOTHWELL:

I am not trying to

nake political capital out of it; I will satisfy die Prime Minister on that score, but I find in the auditor general's report that relief granted in Saskatchawan and secured by lien notes of relief applicants amounts to $216,065.78.

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT AND FARM RELIEF
Subtopic:   BILL IN TERMS GENERALLY OF RELIEF ACT, 1933, WITH PROVISION RESPECTING DELAYED RELIEF ACCOUNTS
Permalink
CON

Richard Bedford Bennett (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council; Secretary of State for External Affairs)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BENNETT:

What year was that?

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT AND FARM RELIEF
Subtopic:   BILL IN TERMS GENERALLY OF RELIEF ACT, 1933, WITH PROVISION RESPECTING DELAYED RELIEF ACCOUNTS
Permalink
LIB

Charles Edward Bothwell

Liberal

Mr. BOTHWELL:

The period covered by the test audit was from October 10, 1930, to April 30, 1932. I do not know whether any lien notes have been taken since then and apparently the minister does not know. I asked him in the first place what the total amount of outstanding notes was and he says he does not know. Under that same item in the auditor general's report there is this:

Recoveries. Cash received from cash sales and from repayments by relief applicants, $8,129.59.

Apparently some of those relief applicants have paid back the money they received by way of direct relief. What I want to know is why direct relief recipients in Saskatchewan in a devastated area such as we have there should be called upon to repay this direct relief assistance that they got, whereas relief recipients in any other part of Canada were not required to do so.

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT AND FARM RELIEF
Subtopic:   BILL IN TERMS GENERALLY OF RELIEF ACT, 1933, WITH PROVISION RESPECTING DELAYED RELIEF ACCOUNTS
Permalink
CON

Richard Bedford Bennett (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council; Secretary of State for External Affairs)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BENNETT:

The answer, as I said

to the hon. gentleman, is very simple. The dominion was paying the whole amount in the devastated area; there was no contribution by municipalities nor by the province and the entire obligation having been assumed by the dominion, it was indicated that some of the people desired to give notes. The number is apparently not very large because according to the report which the hon. gentleman has just read the sum between September, 1930, and the spring of 1932 was about $216,000. I thought the amount was larger. The sum of $8,000 has been repaid. To answer the question categorically, the only reason that notes were taken was that a desire was expressed to give them in that devastated area where the people still had their land that at one time had been worth a great deal of money. There was a feeling among many of them that they did not desire to regard themselves as being persons receiving relief or dharity, but rather getting a loan which they wished to pay back. The fact that some $8,000 have been repaid indicates that some persons desire to keep the faith they had in themselves by making this return of the money. In the other provinces in the other cases there was a threefold contribution by the municipalities, the province and the dominion. The dominion did not take notes nor was it suggested that it should. The dominion had nothing to do with the administration of the relief. The only place in which the dominion government has administered relief in this country since the depression came was in the devastated areas of Saskatchewan and for the reasons I have

Reliej Act, 1984

indicated a number of the people there gave notes at their own request and some have paid them off. In the other parts of the country the contribution was made by the dominion government to assist the provinces in the discharge of their duty and in every province at least in the west where they supplied seed grain, it will perhaps be recalled by the hon. gentleman that the statutes were amended to secure a lien with respect to seed that was supplied.

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT AND FARM RELIEF
Subtopic:   BILL IN TERMS GENERALLY OF RELIEF ACT, 1933, WITH PROVISION RESPECTING DELAYED RELIEF ACCOUNTS
Permalink
LIB

Charles Edward Bothwell

Liberal

Mr. BOTHWELL:

Just one more question. I am not speaking on behalf of any of those who received relief by way of seed grain; I am inquiring in connection with those who received this direct relief for food, clothing and shelter. I gather from the Prime Minister's remarks that this sum of around $216,000 would represent money that was advanced in toto by the federal government and not contributed to in any way by the province. Apparently if these notes are collected, whether by the province or not, the money will belong to the dominion. I have still to receive an answer as to what will be done with it. While some may have requested that they should have the opportunity of giving notes there were numbers who were not too anxious to do so.

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT AND FARM RELIEF
Subtopic:   BILL IN TERMS GENERALLY OF RELIEF ACT, 1933, WITH PROVISION RESPECTING DELAYED RELIEF ACCOUNTS
Permalink
CON

Richard Bedford Bennett (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council; Secretary of State for External Affairs)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BENNETT:

They have not paid.

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT AND FARM RELIEF
Subtopic:   BILL IN TERMS GENERALLY OF RELIEF ACT, 1933, WITH PROVISION RESPECTING DELAYED RELIEF ACCOUNTS
Permalink
LIB

Charles Edward Bothwell

Liberal

Mr. BOTHWELL:

The notes are still outstanding against them as a liability and they see no way of paying them.

While dealing with this particular section in regard to entering into agreements with the provinces respecting relief measures, may I say that we have had in Canada great difficulty in finding markets for our wheat. In . that same area of Saskatchewan, I may call it the drought area, the farmers are finding great difficulty in getting seed and particularly feed for this year's operations. A few lines from a letter indicates just about what the situation is. This gentleman says:

This season we have the additional labour of this grasshopper campaign so that the commission's allowance is about one-third of enough.

That is the commission's allowance for feed. Then he says:

I threshed less wheat than I seeded last year.

Then he makes this suggestion:

In our district there is enough low grade wheat of last year's crop in elevators to relieve the feed situation and the danger of it again finding its way into market could be overcome by grinding before delivery to farmers.

In other parts of his letter he suggests that the farmers in the district in which he lives 74726-126J

will be happy to sign notes again if they can get feed to carry on their operations again this spring. He makes the suggestion that this low grade wheat of which the elevators there are full, might be used for the purpose of providing the required feed. I want to draw this matter to the minister's attention when we are considering granting relief to Saskatchewan.

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT AND FARM RELIEF
Subtopic:   BILL IN TERMS GENERALLY OF RELIEF ACT, 1933, WITH PROVISION RESPECTING DELAYED RELIEF ACCOUNTS
Permalink
LIB

John Vallance

Liberal

Mr. VALLANCE:

I would like to direct a question to either the Prime Minister or the Minister of Labour. During the time from 1930 to 1932, that the federal government was giving the entire relief, did all those who received relief give expression to the idea that they would like to pay it back and, if not, what percentage expressed the wish to pay it back?

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT AND FARM RELIEF
Subtopic:   BILL IN TERMS GENERALLY OF RELIEF ACT, 1933, WITH PROVISION RESPECTING DELAYED RELIEF ACCOUNTS
Permalink
CON

George Gordon

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. GORDON:

The department has not the records which would disclose the information asked for by the hon. gentleman. I do not know whether everyone expressed a desire to pay back the money granted to assist the people. I would be surprised if they did. But I would be pleased if the major portion of them did. The notes were taken by the province, as has been explained, and if the money is repaid there will be a refund to the dominion.

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT AND FARM RELIEF
Subtopic:   BILL IN TERMS GENERALLY OF RELIEF ACT, 1933, WITH PROVISION RESPECTING DELAYED RELIEF ACCOUNTS
Permalink
LIB

John Vallance

Liberal

Mr. VALLANCE:

From what source did the government get the information that the individuals receiving relief desired to pay it back? If the federal government, as stated by the Prime Minister, was paying 100 per cent, surely by reason of that fact the federal government would be in touch with the situation. Therefore I ask where they got the information that the individuals receiving the relief were desirous of paying it back. '

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT AND FARM RELIEF
Subtopic:   BILL IN TERMS GENERALLY OF RELIEF ACT, 1933, WITH PROVISION RESPECTING DELAYED RELIEF ACCOUNTS
Permalink
CON

George Gordon

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. GORDON:

My recollection is that I

was so informed by the Saskatchewan relief commission, who were administering the relief.

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT AND FARM RELIEF
Subtopic:   BILL IN TERMS GENERALLY OF RELIEF ACT, 1933, WITH PROVISION RESPECTING DELAYED RELIEF ACCOUNTS
Permalink

April 10, 1934