April 10, 1934

LIB

Peter John Veniot

Liberal

Hon. P. J. VENIOT (Gloucester):

Mr. Speaker, I should like to inquire of the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Weir) if it is the intention of his department to adopt a policy of bonusing pure bred sires. .

Topic:   BONUSING OF PURE BRED STOCK
Permalink
CON

Robert Weir (Minister of Agriculture)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Hon. ROBERT WEIR (Minister of Agriculture):

We have a number of policies for

the encouragement of improvement in live stock and I should like the hon. member to be a little bit more specific.

Topic:   BONUSING OF PURE BRED STOCK
Permalink
LIB

Peter John Veniot

Liberal

Mr. VENIOT:

My information is that on

April 1 a bonus will be effective for pure bred bulls in Ontario and Quebec. If this is the case, I should like the minister to make this bonus applicable to New Brunswick.

Topic:   BONUSING OF PURE BRED STOCK
Permalink
CON

Robert Weir (Minister of Agriculture)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. W EIR (Melfort):

If New Brunswick

or any other province asks the government to cooperate upon the same terms as we have with Ontario and Quebec, we shall be glad to do so.

Topic:   BONUSING OF PURE BRED STOCK
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UNEMPLOYMENT AND FARM RELIEF

BILL IN TERMS GENERALLY OF RELIEF ACT, 1933, WITH PROVISION RESPECTING DELAYED RELIEF ACCOUNTS


The house resumed from Monday, April 9, consideration in committee of Bill No. 42, respecting relief measures.-Mr. Gordon.- Mr. Lennox in the chair.


CON

Thomas Herbert Lennox

Conservative (1867-1942)

The CHAIRMAN (Mr. Lennox):

The question is on the amendment.

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT AND FARM RELIEF
Subtopic:   BILL IN TERMS GENERALLY OF RELIEF ACT, 1933, WITH PROVISION RESPECTING DELAYED RELIEF ACCOUNTS
Permalink
LIB

William Lyon Mackenzie King (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Liberal

Mr. MACKENZIE KING:

The amendment now before the committee is a relatively minor one and at the time it was introduced I said that I did not think we would take specific exception to it. I see no reason why it should not be passed. I could then put before the committee an amendment which really embodies that to which we are taking the strongest exception. Will the chairman please read the amendment?

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT AND FARM RELIEF
Subtopic:   BILL IN TERMS GENERALLY OF RELIEF ACT, 1933, WITH PROVISION RESPECTING DELAYED RELIEF ACCOUNTS
Permalink
CON

Thomas Herbert Lennox

Conservative (1867-1942)

The CHAIRMAN (Mr. Lennox):

The amendment is that section 2 (a) be amended by adding after the word "province" in the fourth line thereof the following words, "and to Canadian Cooperative Wheat Producers Limited."

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT AND FARM RELIEF
Subtopic:   BILL IN TERMS GENERALLY OF RELIEF ACT, 1933, WITH PROVISION RESPECTING DELAYED RELIEF ACCOUNTS
Permalink

Amendment agreed to.


LIB

William Lyon Mackenzie King (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Liberal

Mr. MACKENZIE KING:

I should like to move the following amendment:

That the section be amended by striking out the words "to take all such measures as in his discretion may be deemed necessary or advisable to maintain, within the competence of parliament, peace, order and good government throughout Canada."

This is an amendment to subsection (b) of section 2 and is seconded by Mr. Stewart (Edmonton). I would point out that the original section contains the words "notwithstanding the provisions of any statute or law the governor in council may" do the things which are mentioned in the amendment. I am proposing by the amendment that this power should not be given to the governor in council particularly as other powers to be given the governor in council which will remain in the section are ample to cope with every conceivable situation.

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT AND FARM RELIEF
Subtopic:   BILL IN TERMS GENERALLY OF RELIEF ACT, 1933, WITH PROVISION RESPECTING DELAYED RELIEF ACCOUNTS
Permalink
CON

Richard Bedford Bennett (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council; Secretary of State for External Affairs)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BENNETT:

How will the section read then?

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT AND FARM RELIEF
Subtopic:   BILL IN TERMS GENERALLY OF RELIEF ACT, 1933, WITH PROVISION RESPECTING DELAYED RELIEF ACCOUNTS
Permalink
LIB

William Lyon Mackenzie King (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Liberal

Mr. MACKENZIE KING:

If the amendment is agreed to the section will read as follows:

Notwithstanding the provisions of any statute or law the governor in council may,-

(a) Upon such terms and conditions as may be agreed upon,-enter into agreements with any of the provinces respecting relief measures therein; grant financial assistance to any province and to Canadian Cooperative Wheat Producers Limited by way of loan, advance, guarantee or otherwise; and in respect of such loans, advances and guarantees, may accept such security, enter into such agreements and generally do all such acts and things as the governor in council may deem necessary and expedient in the public interest;

(b) When parliament is not in session to take all such measures as in his discretion may be deemed necessary or advisable to protect and maintain the credit and financial position of the dominion or any province thereof.

I feel certain the section, if left in that form, will be more than ample to meet any emergent condition which the Prime Minister or the government may ever be called upon to meet. I think these powers go much too far.

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT AND FARM RELIEF
Subtopic:   BILL IN TERMS GENERALLY OF RELIEF ACT, 1933, WITH PROVISION RESPECTING DELAYED RELIEF ACCOUNTS
Permalink
CON

Richard Bedford Bennett (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council; Secretary of State for External Affairs)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BENNETT:

We cannot accept that amendment. It may be possible to meet one of the difficulties pointed out yesterday as to the meaning to be attached to the words

Relief Act, 1934

"notwithstanding the provisions of any statute or law." I have spoken to my colleague, the Minister of Justice (Mr. Guthrie), as to whether instead of the word "notwithstanding" we could insert the words "in addition to the powers conferred by any statute or law" dealing with matters affecting peace, order and good government in the country. There is some force to be attached to the criticism urged yesterday as to the meaning which might be put upon the word "notwithstanding." I do not think there would be a great difference as a matter of law but as that point was urged so strongly yesterday and if it clarifies in any sense the meaning of the section, we would be glad to change it. The amendment now proposed which provides for the elimination of any provision on the part of the executive to deal with matters affecting peace, order and good government, we cannot accept, for the reasons given yesterday. I thought at first that the amendment meant that these words would be retained but that the meaning would be modified in connection with the word "notwithstanding" but the right hon. gentleman proposes to eliminate these words entirely and we cannot accept his amendment.

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT AND FARM RELIEF
Subtopic:   BILL IN TERMS GENERALLY OF RELIEF ACT, 1933, WITH PROVISION RESPECTING DELAYED RELIEF ACCOUNTS
Permalink
LIB

William Lyon Mackenzie King (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Liberal

Mr. MACKENZIE KING:

I had hoped that the amendment would carry but if the Prime Minister takes the view he does, I assume it will not. I trust the Prime Minister will nevertheless make the modification which he has suggested and alter the words "notwithstanding the provisions of any statute or law" to read "in addition to the provisions of any statute or law." It would make only a slight difference; the clause would still be objectionable, but what is proposed would be a modification.

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT AND FARM RELIEF
Subtopic:   BILL IN TERMS GENERALLY OF RELIEF ACT, 1933, WITH PROVISION RESPECTING DELAYED RELIEF ACCOUNTS
Permalink
CON

Richard Bedford Bennett (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council; Secretary of State for External Affairs)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BENNETT:

We will prepare an

amendment along those lines. As the right hon. gentleman will observe, it will be necessary to retain these words in the first part of the section as there are statutes which do operate with respect to matters not concerned with peace, order and good government. These statutes refer to matters mentioned in that part of the section and the power to make agreements with the provinces to deal with those matters must be "notwithstanding the provisions of any statute or law." If the committee will permit this section to stand, the Minister of Justice and I will prepare an amendment which will eliminate the word "notwithstanding" in connection with peace, order and good government. If a meaning was to be given to this word, which I do not

attach to it, it would mean the conferring of power far beyond that which is intended. It is intended that the power to be conferred shall be conferred under the construction given by the privy council to the words "peace, order and good government." For the benefit of the committee I may say that that power by the executive is somewhat restricted when parliament is not in session. But if you interpret the words, as the right hon. gentleman did yesterday, in the light of "notwithstanding", it would be open to the construction of conferring upon the executive powers entirely beyond any statutes that now exist, and notwithstanding them. We will remedy that, and the Minister of Justice will prepare an amendment to meet it. But the first part of it, namely, the power of making arrangements with the provinces, and matters of that kind, must be notwithstanding any other provision that may exist elsewhere; these specifically named provisions must be the overriding provisions in connection with the arrangements made between the dominion and the provinces, and the amendment which we will prepare will, I think, meet the difficulty to which attention has been directed.

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT AND FARM RELIEF
Subtopic:   BILL IN TERMS GENERALLY OF RELIEF ACT, 1933, WITH PROVISION RESPECTING DELAYED RELIEF ACCOUNTS
Permalink
LIB

William Lyon Mackenzie King (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Liberal

Mr. MACKENZIE KING:

That amendment may help to meet the one particular point mentioned, but there will remain the all-important question whether the power to pass orders in council with respect to peace, order and good government when parliament is not in session, in addition to any existing statute or law, should remain. I would suggest therefore that we continue the discussion on the main question rather than allow the section to stand. If, when it is disposed of, the other amendment is not ready, the section could then stand.

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT AND FARM RELIEF
Subtopic:   BILL IN TERMS GENERALLY OF RELIEF ACT, 1933, WITH PROVISION RESPECTING DELAYED RELIEF ACCOUNTS
Permalink
CON

Richard Bedford Bennett (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council; Secretary of State for External Affairs)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BENNETT:

That is quite satisfactory.

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT AND FARM RELIEF
Subtopic:   BILL IN TERMS GENERALLY OF RELIEF ACT, 1933, WITH PROVISION RESPECTING DELAYED RELIEF ACCOUNTS
Permalink
LIB

William Lyon Mackenzie King (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Liberal

Mr. MACKENZIE KING:

I desire to

make a slight explanation in view of what was said last night. In discussing the expenditures made for relief purposes during the years 1920-1930 I stated that the total expenditure had amounted to $10,000,000. I should have said that the total expenditure in that period amounted to some $2,000,000, and I should like to give to the house the exact expenditures, because it is an all-important point with respect to the auditing of the accounts for that period as contrasted with the significance of the auditing of the larger amounts which have been paid out since.

Relief Act, 1934

The following amounts were paid out in the years mentioned for relief purposes:

Year- Amount

1920- 21 $343,036 551921- 22

500,000 001922- 23

924,025 291923- 24

4,273 831924- 25

199 <1-96

1926- 27! 77,684 66

1927- 28

1928- 29

1929- 30

The total contributions by the federal government to unemployment relief during the years 1920-1930 inclusive was Sl,849,020.33. May I say to the committee that after speaking last night I noticed that I had made that error, and in going over the Hansard notes, I made the correction, so that it would read that the total expenditure had not exceeded $2,000,000, which was the figure I ought to have used.

To touch upon another matter I would point out that the Minister of Labour yesterday cited from an order in council, the whole of which, he said, I had not given. He said he thought that I had omitted-quite unintentionally, he added-indicating that there had been audits prior to the passing of the item I was quoting from, namely, the order of March 12 of this year, being P.C. 222. I do not think the minister could have remembered or seen what I said during the previous discussion. Two or three times I referred to this order in council but I did not on each occasion go through the whole of it. I made clear the fact that there had been other audits on the occasion of my first reference. I have before me the discussion of March 22, 1934, from which I may read what I then quoted. I said on that occasion:

Let me read two clauses from the order in council:

"And whereas the audits and investigations which have been made and reported upon by the auditor general, in pursuance of the directions hereinbefore recited, have disclosed the necessity for a more extended audit of the accounts relating to relief expenditures if the interests of the dominion treasury are to be adequately safeguarded; . . . Now therefore His Excellency the Governor General in Council, on the recommendation of the Minister of Labour, is pleased in the exercise of the powers so conferred by the Relief Act, 1933, to order and doth hereby order and direct the auditor general to conduct such audit of provincial and municipal accounts in connection with unemployment relief expenditures as he deems essential to safeguard the interests of the dominion treasury."

In other words, I had that very circumstance in mind when I referred to the order in council, 74726-126

namely, not in any way to mislead the committee as to previous audits. But subsequently in the discussion, when dealing more hurriedly with other points, I did not refer again to the first part of the order in council. I thank the minister for saying that he felt at the time, in reference to what I had quoted, that he did not think I had intentionally sought to mislead the house.

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT AND FARM RELIEF
Subtopic:   BILL IN TERMS GENERALLY OF RELIEF ACT, 1933, WITH PROVISION RESPECTING DELAYED RELIEF ACCOUNTS
Permalink

April 10, 1934