March 19, 1930

UFA

Donald Ferdinand Kellner

United Farmers of Alberta

Mr. KELLNER:

Mr. Speaker, if I might

address Your Honour on the point of order, I would point out that the creating of the proposed fund could hardly be interpreted as a tax. It might be drawn upon or it might not, according to circumstances. If the immigrant were competent to look after himself when he came to Canada, there would be no necessity whatever of expending that fund, and it would automatically revert to those who had contributed. But if there are expenditures, such as we have at the moment, to look after those immigrants, they should come from this fund.

Topic:   IMMIGRATION POLICY
Subtopic:   PROPOSAL TO DISCONTINUE FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE EXCEPT IN CASE OF FEMALE DOMESTICS
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LIB

Hewitt Bostock (Speaker of the Senate)

Liberal

Mr. SPEAKER:

What about the allocation of the fund itself?

Topic:   IMMIGRATION POLICY
Subtopic:   PROPOSAL TO DISCONTINUE FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE EXCEPT IN CASE OF FEMALE DOMESTICS
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UFA

Donald Ferdinand Kellner

United Farmers of Alberta

Mr. KELLNER:

It would really be bonding the companies, Mr. Speaker, in my estimation.

Topic:   IMMIGRATION POLICY
Subtopic:   PROPOSAL TO DISCONTINUE FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE EXCEPT IN CASE OF FEMALE DOMESTICS
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LAB

Abraham Albert Heaps

Labour

Mr. HEAPS:

I would like to point out, Mr. Speaker, that there is hardly a resolution on the order paper which would not in some way involve a form of expenditure, and if your ruling is to be interpreted in the way you intend it to be on this particular occasion, then practically every motion of a private member on the order paper could be ruled out of order. I would like to call your attention to the motion on the order paper, No. 7, which actually requests increased expenditures by the federal government in relation to the provinces.

Topic:   IMMIGRATION POLICY
Subtopic:   PROPOSAL TO DISCONTINUE FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE EXCEPT IN CASE OF FEMALE DOMESTICS
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LIB

Hewitt Bostock (Speaker of the Senate)

Liberal

Mr. SPEAKER:

We have not reached it yet.

Topic:   IMMIGRATION POLICY
Subtopic:   PROPOSAL TO DISCONTINUE FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE EXCEPT IN CASE OF FEMALE DOMESTICS
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LAB

Abraham Albert Heaps

Labour

Mr. HEAPS:

That is quite true, but I venture to assert that in previous years there have been resolutions on the order paper of a similar character to the one now on the order paper in the name of the hon. member for Cumberland (Mr. Smith), and they have not been ruled out of order. As I understand the amendment, it calls for no expenditure at all by the federal government. It calls for an expenditure by certain individuals. Certainly it would not impose any tax or additional expenditure on the part of parliament, except that which might accrue, and that is not positive. If Your Honour's interpretation is to apply it will practically rule out every resolution coming from this corner of the house.

Topic:   IMMIGRATION POLICY
Subtopic:   PROPOSAL TO DISCONTINUE FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE EXCEPT IN CASE OF FEMALE DOMESTICS
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LAB

Herbert Bealey Adshead

Labour

Mr. ADSHEAD:

Would it not obviate the difficulty to ask not for $1,000 but for a bond of $1,000.

Topic:   IMMIGRATION POLICY
Subtopic:   PROPOSAL TO DISCONTINUE FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE EXCEPT IN CASE OF FEMALE DOMESTICS
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LIB

Hewitt Bostock (Speaker of the Senate)

Liberal

Mr. SPEAKER:

A bond is as good as a dollar. I think some words should be changed in the amendment to conform with the

Immigration Policy-Mr. Baldwin

usages of the house. As it is, there is the imposition of a tax on a certain class of individuals or corporations dealing with immigration matters.

Topic:   IMMIGRATION POLICY
Subtopic:   PROPOSAL TO DISCONTINUE FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE EXCEPT IN CASE OF FEMALE DOMESTICS
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UFA

Donald Ferdinand Kellner

United Farmers of Alberta

Mr. KELLNER:

Mr. Speaker, may I inquire, then, what the position of the amendment will be while we are considering those changes? Would it be permissible at a later time to introduce an amended amendment?

Topic:   IMMIGRATION POLICY
Subtopic:   PROPOSAL TO DISCONTINUE FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE EXCEPT IN CASE OF FEMALE DOMESTICS
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LIB

Hewitt Bostock (Speaker of the Senate)

Liberal

Mr. SPEAKER:

The main motion reads as follows:

That, in the opinon of this house, the time lias arrived when the federal government of the Dominon of Canada should no longer assist immigrants to this country in any financial

*way,-

Then begins the amendment of the hon. member for Athabaska (Mr. Kellner):

That all the words after "way" be struck out and that the following words be added:

"and that any company, organization, association, church or other institution bringing, or assisting in bringing, any immigrants to Canada, shall deposit with the government the sum of $1,000 for each and every immigrant so brought in or assisted;"

It should be "should", and even then I do not know that it is regular. At least it has the form of a wish; otherwise the government is committed if this amendment is adopted.

Topic:   IMMIGRATION POLICY
Subtopic:   PROPOSAL TO DISCONTINUE FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE EXCEPT IN CASE OF FEMALE DOMESTICS
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UFA

William Irvine

United Farmers of Alberta

Mr. IRVINE:

Would it be in order if the house permitted us to make the amendment you suggest, in those words?

Topic:   IMMIGRATION POLICY
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LIB

Hewitt Bostock (Speaker of the Senate)

Liberal

Mr. SPEAKER:

By unanimous consent,

the house might allow the hon. gentleman to use the word "should" instead of the word "shall".

Topic:   IMMIGRATION POLICY
Subtopic:   PROPOSAL TO DISCONTINUE FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE EXCEPT IN CASE OF FEMALE DOMESTICS
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LIB

Ernest Lapointe (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Liberal

Mr. LAPOINTE:

May I suggest that the

debate continue on the main motion while another amendment is being drafted and moved?

Topic:   IMMIGRATION POLICY
Subtopic:   PROPOSAL TO DISCONTINUE FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE EXCEPT IN CASE OF FEMALE DOMESTICS
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LIB

Charles A. Stewart (Minister of Immigration and Colonization; Superintendent-General of Indian Affairs; Minister of Mines; Minister of the Interior)

Liberal

Mr. STEWART (Edmonton):

Before the

question is disposed of, may I point out to my hon. friend that if he votes for the proposal, that is, the amendment, it would be for the provinces to exact the $1,000 mentioned in the amendment, if they deal with those societies.

Topic:   IMMIGRATION POLICY
Subtopic:   PROPOSAL TO DISCONTINUE FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE EXCEPT IN CASE OF FEMALE DOMESTICS
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UFA

William Irvine

United Farmers of Alberta

Mr. IRVINE:

The hon. gentleman's proposal is not before the house, as I understand it.

Topic:   IMMIGRATION POLICY
Subtopic:   PROPOSAL TO DISCONTINUE FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE EXCEPT IN CASE OF FEMALE DOMESTICS
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LIB

Charles A. Stewart (Minister of Immigration and Colonization; Superintendent-General of Indian Affairs; Minister of Mines; Minister of the Interior)

Liberal

Mr. STEWART (Edmonton):

Yes, but

the federal government would not be making agreements with organizations of any sort. If there were any agreements in existence they would be with the provinces, and my hon. ifriend's amendment would have no effect.

Topic:   IMMIGRATION POLICY
Subtopic:   PROPOSAL TO DISCONTINUE FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE EXCEPT IN CASE OF FEMALE DOMESTICS
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UFA

Donald Ferdinand Kellner

United Farmers of Alberta

Mr. KELLNER:

I would like to point

out, Mr. Speaker, that it will be several months yet before that new agreement can be made effective. May I ask the minister whether the immigration that has come into Canada since the New Year has had the sanction of the provincial governments? For instance, 290 came into Alberta in the month of January, and I think, beyond a doubt, probably twice as many since.

Topic:   IMMIGRATION POLICY
Subtopic:   PROPOSAL TO DISCONTINUE FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE EXCEPT IN CASE OF FEMALE DOMESTICS
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LIB

Hewitt Bostock (Speaker of the Senate)

Liberal

Mr. SPEAKER:

The hon. gentleman,

having already spoken cannot proceed. I rule his amendment as being out of order. Any other hon. gentleman may propose it, but it must be draftel differently. At present there is only the main motion before the house.

Topic:   IMMIGRATION POLICY
Subtopic:   PROPOSAL TO DISCONTINUE FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE EXCEPT IN CASE OF FEMALE DOMESTICS
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LIB

Willis Keith Baldwin

Liberal

Mr. W. K. BALDWIN (Stanstead):

Mr. Speaker, I assure this house that I can speak wholeheartedly in favour of the resolution of the hon. member for Willow Bunch (Mr. Donnelly). I notice that the estimate for immigration this year has been reduced, and I am pleased at that and hope it will continue to be reduced. Whatever we do in this world, if it is to amount to anything, has to be done wholeheartedly. There has been throughout this country considerable gloom since the war, and one party has been talking, and newspapers have been talking, the whispers of death and various other things that have worked against the interests of Canada. When the farmers of the southwestern states were burning their corn there was no one to say: no farmers shall come to this land. Of course taxes were less, and they had no automobiles to buy, or the many other things that attract the people of this day. They did not require very much money; they held their land, and the advance in the price of land repaid them well for hanging on. I presume the same condition will prevail in Canada.

I do not believe that the withdrawal of assisted immigration will stop people from coming to this country. I think assisted immigration brings the people who have received grants and doles in their own country, and they are not a very desirable class of people for Canada. I notice that both systems of railway are going to extend their mileage this year. The province of Ontario will soon have her railway reaching to James bay, and considering that the great Hudson Bay railway will reach Churchill within the next two years, that will be a lively centre. And, I have no doubt, the waterways will be extended and completed to reach ports in Ontario. Then we have the important hydro electric developments that are now in process of formation throughout Canada. For instance, we have the

"70 COMMONS

Immigration Policy-Mr. Baldwin

great Beauharnois project. We also have the extensive terminal project of the Canadian National railways in Montreal, requiring an expenditure of $50,000,000. Considering all these things, we need a vigorous class of people to enter Canada, and I believe we will get them if we all wholeheartedly talk for Canada. Supposing that every ten of us brought one good working man into Canada, it would not be a very great accomplishment on our part, but it would bring a million people into this country annually, and that is more than we could very well absorb. I have spoken about the shroud of gloom affecting the life of the country. When we are on the other side we go around with our heads hanging down and with humps on our backs, saying " We come from Canada." Why do we not hold up our heads, square our shoulders and say, " We are Canadians and proud of it." When they ask about our country let us say, "Yes, it is an amazing country with the greatest opportunities offered anywhere on the face of the earth. We have a population of vigorous people, but we always can assimilate newcomers." The hon. member for Willow Bunch (Mr. Donnelly) mentioned the Chinese, but our climatic conditions will prevent those people from coming here. We will only get the best people from all parts of the world.

It has been arid that American tourists spent over $300,000,000 in this country last year. Why should not those tourists go back to their country and say. "Canada is a wonderful country; the people are optimistic, cheerful, bright, thrifty and doing well." I believe in that way we could bring a great many good people to this country. We want capital here and we want labourers. Some of the official labour organs from Washington indicate that conditions in the United- States are none too happy. I own a number of farms in the United States as well as a number of farms in Quebec, and as between the two I much prefer the farms in Quebec. If I do not make anything from a farm I help some poor mortal get a living, even though I pay the taxes. On my farms in the United States, on the other hand, in many cases I pay the taxes and get nothing in return.

There is too much gloom shed by hon. gentlemen opposite and by different newspapers throughout the country. I would pass a law whereby any paper which belittled this country would have to shut down, and would be -prohibited from publishing another issue.

I certainly think we should take some action of that kind.

For a number of years we prohibited immigration from Germany and from some other northern European countries, and I think we

made a mistake. Look at the states of Minnesota and Wisconsin; they have been built up largely by people of -this class, and I believe our government went a little too far in those days in keeping those people out of Canada. However, now we should work unitedly; let us not bring politics into this question; we should not proceed with the idea that more immigrants will come if we are in power and fewer will come if you are in power. Let us work together with the love of our country uniting us, and when we go to the United States let us be proud of being Canadians and let us tell them Canada is a wonderful country with a glorious future. Here any honourable man can work out his destiny; here there is an opportunity for anyone who is willing to work and abide by our laws. It is appalling to me to think that a whole decade or more has gone by with such a small increase in our population, and I believe that lias been caused very largely because we have not sufficient love of country and patriotism to stand up for Canada all the time and everywhere we may be.

Another hon. member wishes to speak for five minutes, Mr. Speaker, so I will resume my seat.

Topic:   IMMIGRATION POLICY
Subtopic:   PROPOSAL TO DISCONTINUE FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE EXCEPT IN CASE OF FEMALE DOMESTICS
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LIB

Joseph Oscar Lefebre Boulanger

Liberal

Mr. OSCAR BOULANGER (Belle-chasse) (Translation):

I do not intend to discuss

at length the resolution at present under consideration. My views on this question have long been known. I h-ave already had the opportunity of placing them before the house. As the speaker who has just preceded me has left but an interval of five minutes before the house adjourns, I shall not long delay the discussion of a resolution of which I approve. I simply wish to congratulate my hon. friend from Willow Bunch (Mr. Donnelly) for having introduced in the house tojday this resolution, and thereby afforded an opportunity to the Acting Minister of Immigration (Mr. Stewart) to make a statement. His statement pleased us very much We rejoice in seeing that the government intends to change its immigration policy in this country. We are glad to note that reason and common sense have triumphed, for after all, what the hon. member for Willow Bunch requests by his resolution is but rational and a matter of common sense.

When this question was introduced in the house a few years ago, it did not meet with as much sympathy as the resolution of the hon. member for Willow Bun-ch has to-day. This shows that a sound policy is always accepted in the long run; it proves that common sense is sure to prevail through a change in public opinion. Judging from the

Immigration Policy-Mr. Boulanger

discussion in the house this afternoon, no one seems to favour any longer subsidized immigration; there appears to be unanimity on this point. Everybody seems to agree in requesting the government to cease subsidizing people to settle in Canada; all have realized that such a policy or scheme was beneath our national pride, and contrary to Canada's dignity. In fact, if Canada is as great as one hears, as prosperous as one says, it strikes me that it is contrary to the dignity of Canada and our national pride to subsidize people to settle here. This is a feeling that every speaker who preceded me in this debate has expressed, it is also one that I expressed in this house a few years ago, when, perhaps, this feeling was not so unanimously shared as at present.

There is also another motive for opposing subsidized immigration; it is, in our opinion, an entirely useless expenditure. Figures were quoted to show that we had not derived the benefit expected; that the increase in the population was not in keeping with the outlay.

There is also a further reason which I wish to explain briefly, a reason which convinces the opponents of subsidized immigration that this expenditure is useless and that the country does not derive the benefit which it should expect; it is that as soon as we begin to subsidize immigrants, there seems no way of discontinuing such a practice; there are no halts provided on this pathway. The people we draw to this country by paying their fare exjiect the government to help them in settling, and moreover to partly supply them with farm implements; no doubt they expect the government to look after them for the remainder of their lives. Proof of all this came out at the inquiry carried on, by the committee on agriculture two years ago, I think, in connection with the question of immigration. I recall, among others, a chap who complained to the committee that we were not bringing in enough immigrants from the British Isles; he gave as reasons, that we lacked in this country insurance against unemployment, that we had no mothers' allowances, that we had not such and such forms of assistance as they exist in the British Isles. He gave as bis opinion, that in order to encourage British immigration, we should adopt in this young country all the systems of insurance and assistance as exist on the other side.

Another witness even went further, she suggested to us that life should be made pleasant and easy to immigrants in order that they 2419-49J

might not be too lonesome for their native land, once they had settled in Canada. The same witness told us, that one readily understood that people having lived in towns in England or Europe found themselves somewhat out of their element, after settling on the prairies or in our rural districts; especially in winter time life is not very gay on the prairies. This witness made the suggestion that we should place these people in the towns during the winter months. She even went so far as to agree that these people be left on the farms during the summer season providing always that we brought them back to the towns, where it was less lonesome and gayer in winter. She further suggested that we should -build for immigrants cottages or houses with all modem conveniences, so that they might not seem lost on their arrival in Canada.

I mention these two witnesses simply to show that should we continue to assist these people, there will be no end to it, they will for ever be requesting assistance.

Complaints are heard at present-the western towns especially complain-that unemployment is astonishingly large. Astonishingly large is not perhaps the right expression, because conditions are not as bad as some wish to make them out, however, we can state, I think, that there is more unemployment this year than there usually is. Many people place the blame for th-is increase o-f unemployment on subsidized immigration, on the assistance given to immigrants to settle here; and on the propaganda we have been carrying on towards recruiting more and more immigrants. This policy is of a nature to stir discontent among the oitzens of this country and create a feeling of reaction against our immigration policy. Those who are out of work are prone to criticize and blame this immigration policy when they witness people newly arrived working, while they themselves cannot find anything t,o do. This is a widely spread feeling among the people.

Topic:   IMMIGRATION POLICY
Subtopic:   PROPOSAL TO DISCONTINUE FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE EXCEPT IN CASE OF FEMALE DOMESTICS
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March 19, 1930