March 22, 1927

?

John Warwick King

Mr. KING (Kootenay):

It stands.

Health-salaries, $174,425; Contingencies, including members of the Dominion Council of Health, or substitutes for the chief provincial health officers and $179.90 incurred by Dr. H. Orr of Edmonton. Alta., in coming to Ottawa as substitute in July, 1926, $60,000.

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UFA

Robert Gardiner

United Farmers of Alberta

Mr. GARDINER:

Mr. Chairman, are the new rules in operation? It is eleven o'clock.

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?

Some hon. MEMBERS:

Not yet.

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Item agreed to. Civil Government-Railways and Canals- salaries, including E. E. Pelletier, messenger to minister, at $1,600 per annum, who shall be entitled to all the benefits and privileges under The Civil Service Superannuation Act, 1924, as



Supply-Railways and Canals if he had been a civil servant who had elected pursuant to the provisions of part IV of the act, to become a contributor under the act, $248,490; contingencies, $38,000. Mr. GUTHRIE; We will have to have some explanation of this item?


LIB

Charles Avery Dunning (Minister of Railways and Canals)

Liberal

Mr. DUNNING:

This is all the permanent civil service, of course. The one exception, Mr. Pelletier, is a very difficult case. He has served for thirty or forty years in the capacity of messenger to every succeeding minister of railways and due to a succession of awkward circumstances he is not under the Superannuation Act. This is designed to give him the opportunity of coming under that act. He is not yet at the supperannuation age and will contribute from this time onward. I feel sure that every minister of railways and anyone else who had anything to do with this particular man will realize the justice of giving him this opportunity. He was in the employ of the Intercolonial Railway for a lcng time and consequently is not under the provisions of the ordinary act.

Topic:   DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH
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CON

Hugh Guthrie (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. GUTHRIE:

Would the minister explain the thirteen increases in his department?

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LIB

Charles Avery Dunning (Minister of Railways and Canals)

Liberal

Mr. DUNNING:

I have not the documents here, but I may say no actual increases are involved. Salaries which were carried under other votes previously are now put into their proper place under civil government. In other votes my hon. friends will notice decreases which are accounted for by this increase.

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CON

Robert James Manion

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MANION:

Will the minister promise tc tell us of those decreases when we come to them?

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LIB
CON

Hugh Guthrie (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. GUTHRIE:

If the minister will turn

to page 101 of the estimates he will find that last year the salaries in his department amounted to $222,155, while this year they amount to $248,490; the number of employees last year was 93 and this year it is 106, so apparently there is an increase of 13 in the number of employees and of $26,000 in the salaries, part of which I suppose is statutory. What are these additional thirteen employees?

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LIB

Charles Avery Dunning (Minister of Railways and Canals)

Liberal

Mr. DUNNING:

I am afraid I did not make myself clear. Other votes already covered salaries which should be under civil government, and these salaries are now transferred to civil government where they properly belong.

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CON
LIB

Charles Avery Dunning (Minister of Railways and Canals)

Liberal

Mr. DUNNING:

There may be an increase of one or two; I am sorry I have not my

documents with me, but there is nothing like an increase of thirteen. The real reason for the increase is the transfer of salaries from other votes to civil government. But if there is any objection I shall be glad to let the vote stand until I have the information available or I will give the detailed explanation on the other votes as the hon. member for Fort William (Mr. Manion) suggests. I really was not prepared to go on to-night, as I think everyone will recognize; I have not the documents before me, but I remember checking up when the estimates were submitted to me and this is really a transfer of salaries from other votes to civil government, where it is considered they properly belong.

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CON

Hugh Guthrie (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. GUTHRIE:

I remember last year and the year before we had from other ministers the same explanation, but you can take the estimates year by year and take the number of civil servants drawing their salaries from the government and find an increase every year. There is nothing in the estimates to show these decreases of which the minister has spoken. That statement would apply to every one of the last five years; there has been a gradual increase in the civil service, and I doubt if there is any new business to warrant it. The invariable explanation given by the government is that these increases are apparent rather than real and that in some other branch of the service there have been some changing or switching or rearrangement of some kind, which has not involved any more money. Every year, however, the salary list shows an increase and the number of officials increases as well.

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LIB

Charles Avery Dunning (Minister of Railways and Canals)

Liberal

Mr. DUNNING:

I can only repeat what I said previously, but I have found one vote, item 127 on page 30 of the estimates, "Surveys and inspections-canals, including salaries and expenses of experts employed temporarily." Last year that item amounted to $20,000 while this year only $13,000 is asked, and I know the reason is because of the transfer of some salaries formerly chargeable to that vote to the civil government, where they properly belong. There are other votes in connection with which the same thing applies, but I do not have them at hand at the moment. As I said before, I am willing to allow the vote to stand over if it is so desired, because I appreciate the committee is entitled to all the information it is possible to give.

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Item agreed to. Progress reported. On motion of Mr. Mackenzie King the House adjourned at 11.10 p.m. Private Bills Wednesday, March 23, 1927.


March 22, 1927