March 3, 1927

CON

Henry Herbert Stevens

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. STEVENS:

Some of ns have the

misfortune of not being lawyers.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   OLD AGE PENSIONS
Permalink
LIB

Lucien Cannon (Solicitor General of Canada)

Liberal

Mr. CANNON:

I submit that the words

"British subject" cover the case of both a man and a woman, and the other case mentioned by my hon. friend from Vancouver Centre is looked after by the second part of the section.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   OLD AGE PENSIONS
Permalink
CON

Edmond Baird Ryckman

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. RYCKMAN:

I cannot say that I am in accord with the Solicitor General. I think this is a new interpretation. Clause (a) obviously means what we all understand, but we must remember that we have to consider the grammatical construction, and I say the proper construction of this clause as worded is this:

Is a British subject, or, being a widow, was a widow before her marriage.

The antecedent of "such", under the rules of grammatical construction, is the nearest noun to it, unless otherwise specified, and in this ease the nearest noun to the word "such" is "widow". The strict interpretation of that clause therefore would be:

Is a British subject, or, being a widow, was a widow before her marriage.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   OLD AGE PENSIONS
Permalink
CON

Henry Herbert Stevens

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. STEVENS:

It is obviously bad drafting.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   OLD AGE PENSIONS
Permalink
LIB-PRO

John Livingstone Brown

Liberal Progressive

Mr. BROWN:

I thought there was nothing in it when the hon. member for Vancouver Centre introduced this point, but I think now it is worthy of consideration. I looked at it one way and I could see it one way, and I looked at it another way and I- could see it another. It seems to me it might be made to rea d:

Is a British subject, or, being a widow of an alien, was a British subject before her marriage.

It seems to me that would make it clear beyond dispute. I think there is a good deal in the point raised by my hon. friend from Vancouver Centre. Certainly the words

"British subject" would include the widow of an alien, if the clause did not proceed immediately to make exception of other people. The exception takes in more than intended, and in order to correct it you have to add a few words to the clause.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   OLD AGE PENSIONS
Permalink
CON

George Halsey Perley

Conservative (1867-1942)

Sir GEORGE PERLEY:

I suggest that the minister take the matter up with the law officers of the department and make sure that this clause covers these widows. It seems to me we have done a good day's work, and I suggest that we might adjourn.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   OLD AGE PENSIONS
Permalink
LIB

Lucien Cannon (Solicitor General of Canada)

Liberal

Mr. CANNON:

I think we ought to be

careful to see that the interests of the widows are fully protected. Having listened to my hon. friends on this side and on the other side, I suggest that we might amend paragraph (a) so that it would read as follows:

(a) A British subject, or, being a widow, was a British subject before her marriage.

That would be very clear. "British subject" covers, man and woman.

Mr. CLARK!: No, that would not do.

Mr. MeMILLAN: Or, being a widow of an alien, was a British subject before her marriage.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   OLD AGE PENSIONS
Permalink
LIB

Lucien Cannon (Solicitor General of Canada)

Liberal

Mr. CANNON:

It does not matter to whom she was married; if she was a British subject before her marriage and became a widow she regained her nationality.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   OLD AGE PENSIONS
Permalink
CON

John Arthur Clark

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. CLARK:

The amendment proposed by the Solicitor General does not cover the point raised by the hon. member for Vancouver Centre. I think we are agreed that the widow of an alien who was a British subject prior to her marriage is probably covered by the section as it stands. But I do not think the section provides for the widow who was an alien, but married a British subject who subsequently died.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   OLD AGE PENSIONS
Permalink
UFA

George Gibson Coote

United Farmers of Alberta

Mr. COOTE:

I do not want to interfere

with the passage of this bill; I am much interested in it. But I desire to protest to the government that it is a quarter to twelve, and I think it would be the part of wisdom to allow the committee to rise and report progress and adjourn the House. Possibly by to-morrow the members of the committee will have settled in their minds just what they want to do with the widow.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   OLD AGE PENSIONS
Permalink
LIB

John Frederick Johnston (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Liberal

The CHAIRMAN:

Shall clause 8 carry?

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   OLD AGE PENSIONS
Permalink
CON

John Arthur Clark

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. CLARK:

No, I understand there is an amendment before the committee.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   OLD AGE PENSIONS
Permalink
CON

Robert James Manion

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MANION:

Do I understand, Mr. Chairman, that the amendment I moved was ruled out of order?

Old Age Pensions

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   OLD AGE PENSIONS
Permalink
LIB

John Frederick Johnston (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Liberal

The CHAIRMAN:

Yes.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   OLD AGE PENSIONS
Permalink
CON

George Halsey Perley

Conservative (1867-1942)

Sir GEORGE PERLEY:

I think the

minister should consult the law officers on the wording of the clause and report to-morrow.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   OLD AGE PENSIONS
Permalink
LIB

Peter Heenan (Minister of Labour)

Liberal

Mr. HEENAN:

I consulted the law officers and heard as many arguments about the different classes of widows as we have had discussed to-night, and ultimately the gentleman who drafted the bill decided to leave the clause in its usual form. We feel everything is covered.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   OLD AGE PENSIONS
Permalink
CON

Henry Herbert Stevens

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. STEVENS:

I think a word or two

would make it perfectly clear. This is a late hour to continue such an important subject.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   OLD AGE PENSIONS
Permalink
LIB

John Frederick Johnston (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Liberal

The CHAIRMAN:

Shall clause 8 carry?

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   OLD AGE PENSIONS
Permalink
?

Some hon. MEMBERS:

No.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   OLD AGE PENSIONS
Permalink
LIB

John Campbell Elliott (Minister of Public Works)

Liberal

Mr. ELLIOTT:

Subject to amendment.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   OLD AGE PENSIONS
Permalink

March 3, 1927