The CHAIRMAN:

I presume so.

Mr. MACLEAN (York):

I want to

speak about the principle involved in the franchise to build the road to Red Lake, because I think all that mining country, and it is the most promising mining country in the world, ought to be connected up with the Canadian National railways. At present a new thing is happening. There is a great mining country in the township of Rouyn, in the province of Quebec, where great dis-

coveries have been made and the township is desirous of getting railway service. Apparently they could not get railway service by going direct to the Canadian National Railways, so a local company was incorporated to build a line from Amos southeasterly to Rouyn. That road is being built by an independent company, and a big bond issue is to be floated in connection with it. This is a new development in the way of building branch lines from the Canadian National railway, that is, first to incorporate a local company for the purpose of building the road, and then issuing a large block of securities, and then later on unloading them on to the Canadian National. My contention is that this road ought to be taken care of absolutely as a branch line of the Canadian National railway.

Then when we come to this Red lake proposition, which is an extension probably of one hundred miles of railway to be 'built by a private company, we notice that there is a great rush to incorporate this company. We are having promoters come here from all over to build railways into that mining country. I do not know how many more of these companies will come along, but I do know that the richest mining country in the world to-day is in the province of Quebec, in Ontario, and probably in Manitoba, and all of these mines will want to connect up with the Canadian National railway. The stand I want to take here to-night, and I am sure I shall be backed up 'by public opinion in Quebec, Ontario and [DOT]Manitoba, is that the Canadian National Railway ought to build all these lines if they are worth being built at all. They ought to be owned directly by the people, and my suggestion is this, instead of giving a franchise to these private companies, the Canadian National ought to build this line direct themselves from Amos to Rouyn, and then southwesterly to Cheminis on the boundary between Quebec and Ontario, where they would join up with the Temiskaming and Northern Ontario railway, and once on the Temiskaming and Northern Ontario railway they could go north and west, via Kirkland lake and on west to a station called Westree on the Canadian National, on the Sudbury main line. In that way we will have the National Railway serving all that mining country in Ontario, Quebec and Manitoba instead of a lot of local companies. Here is the second company coming forward for a franchise, and I make the prediction that there will be at least ten of them coming along later. Now that ought to stop. The greatest mines in Canada recently were dis-

Red Lake Railway Company

covered, first of all, when nickel was found near Sudbury, and next the Cobalt silver camp. The Temiskaming and Northern Ontario railway was built-it is wholly owned by the province of Ontario-and then came the discoveries in Porcupine. That territory also is served by the Temiskaming and Northern Ontario.

Mr. McGIBBON:

Does the hon. member

think this country is justified in going ahead and building railways on the prospect of something being discovered along the route?

Mr. MACLEAN (York):

I say that if

others are prepared to build these railways, at least the Canadian National ought to be giten the preference in the matter. Does m hon. friend object to what the province of Ontario did in connection with the Temiskaming and Northern Ontario railway?

Mr. McGIBBON:

My hon. friend has

not answered my question. It was this: Does he think we would be justified in building railways in the hope that along the right of way something might be discovered?

Mr. MACLEAN (York):

Oh no, I am not.

Mr. McGIBBON:

That is what you are

doing.

Mr. MACLEAN (York):

I am objecting

to exploiters getting ahead of the National Railway in the matter of all these possibilities; and they are more than possibilities, thej; are actualities. It is in the interests of the provinces of Ontario and Quebec, and it is in the interests of the National Railways that there shall be a great main line through this mining country.

Mr. McGIBBON:

But the National Railways said they did not want it and would not touch it.

Mr. MACLEAN (York):

Yes, because the exploiters want it, and they, perhaps, would put a little silence round the National Railways. The point I want to make is that this is the greatest mining country in the world. Part of it is in Quebec, part in Ontario, and part in Manitoba. The province of Ontario has 200 miles of this country, and what the Canadian National ought to do is not only to build these lines but take over the Temiskaming and Northern Ontario line which is practically a paying proposition now. Then the people of Canada would own the railways in the greatest mining country in the world. All I say is in the meantime let these profiteers whoever they are, these exploiters, wait.

There is no reason why we should give them this charter if the road is not needed. It was not intended to serve the mining country, it was to serve the exploiters.

Mr. O'NEILL: What about the Gowganda camp, in which I understand my hon. friend is interested?

Mr. MACLEAN (York):

I am not interested in Gowganda at all.

Mr. O'NEILL: What you are saying has to do with its welfare.

Mr. MACLEAN (York):

No, what I am anxious for is to see the greatest mining country in the world preserved for the National Railways. When the National line is up there it ought to have the opportunity to secure the traffic. Let me tell my hon. friend something. The National Railways get out a magazine every month which is distributed among their employees. In this is a little card asking the reader-who of course is an employee of the company

if he knows of any traffic that it is possible to get in his district, and if he does, to send to the head office a post card containing the information. That shows how anxious they are to get freight. They should be equally anxious to secure the railways that are going to develop the northern country. My contention is that the Canadian National should own the line from Amos right through Rouyn to Cheminis on the Temiskaming and Northern Ontario at the interprovincial line, through the Kirkland Lake gold field to Swastika, then north to Earlton Junction. Then west to the present terminal at Elk Lake, then on via Gowganda and Shining Tree to Wfestree on the Sudbury line, opening up the richest area in Quebec and Ontario of copper, gold, silver and gold again. That is the greatest series of lines through a mining country that I know of, and they can all be combined in one. That would be a profitable route and would give the Canadian National complete control of the territory. We have got the whole northern country now practically outside of the Canadian Pacific, that is at all profitable. I do not want to see any unnecessary rush in building railways. I do not know why parliament should let these other people go ahead before the National Railways have a chance at it. Of course the Minister of Railways says the Canadian National Railways have no present interest in the matter. Certainly not if the method is continued which has been followed in connection with the development of the Rouyn field, that is, to allow a local company to get a charter, issue securities to build a road, and then sell out at a great ad-

Red Lake Railway Company

vance to the Canadian National Railways. The principle I have indicated is the general principle I have laid down here. If you grant the present request it will not be long before other people will be asking for charters for the construction of small lines to serve the mining country in Quebec, Ontario and Manitoba.

'Mr. MoGIBBON: May I ask the hon. member piloting this 'bill through the House, who is responsible for the clauses respecting the water powers it is hoped to acquire?

Mr. ROGERS:

They are all taken out.

Mr. McGIBBON:

Not in the bill as presented to me.

Mr. SUTHERLAND (South Oxford):

Before we attempt to pass sections in this way, I think we ought to have the bill printed as it came from the committee. It is rather significant, in view of our railway experience, that the Minister of Railways is not in his seat when this bill is going through, to inform1 us what the policy of the government is in connection with branch lines. I protest against going on with the bill until it has been printed with the amendments in it so that we shall know what we are doing.

Mr. HEAPS:

I quite agree with the hon. member for South Oxford that we ought to have an exact copy of the amendments made to the bill before us before we proceed with the measure. It is establishing a bad precedent if we undertake to discuss a bill that has been changed when we have not the bill in its amended form before us. The province of Manitoba is very much interested in this particular bill. At the last session of the legislature a measure was passed guarantete-ing 125,000 per mile to 'a company that would build a line from in or near the city of Winnipeg to the Red lake district. I tried to get a copy of that bill from the parliamentary library, but they did not happen to have one there. I did not know what attitude the province of Manitoba had taken towards this -measure, but I consulted a newspaper record and found that the provincial legislature did pass such a bill as I have stated. Now we ought to have some definite idea as to what the views of the Manitoba government may be before we pass this legislation. In the next place I " think the Minister of Railways ought to be in his seat, because the bill now before us has some bearing upon the Canadian National Railways. According to the provisions of the bill this railway is intended to go into the town of The Pas in the northern Manitoba area. As a matter of fact this governi.Mr. W. F. Maclean.]

ment is interested in a railway which will pass through The Pas into the Hudson bay district. If it is impossible, as stated by some hon. members, for one railway going into that district to pay, it will be altogether out of the question for two railways to operate in that country at a profit. One of the things we are complaining about at the present time is the fact that there are too many duplications of railways, and I protest strongly against any railway duplication in the northern Manitoba area. Why is Manitoba interested in this matter? I find that in clause 12-I know nothing of any other amendment-power is given to the railway company to build a railway-

The CHAIRMAN:

Clause 12 has been

struck out.

Mr. HEAPS:

That is all the more reason why the bill should be allowed to stand over until such time as we can have its exact form before us.

The CHAIRMAN:

If the hon. gentleman says he wishes the bill to stand over I will get the sense of the committee upon it. If the committee concurs in the idea it will not be necessary to discuss the matter any further.

Mr. O'NEILL: The bill has been allowed to stand half a dozen times, and the objections now urged are only technical objections. Unless it is held that the bill should be reprinted there is no reason for any further delay. [DOT]

Mr. McGIBBON:

We are not all members of the Railway committee, and we do not know everything that goes on there. The Minister of Railways is supposed to be a kind of superman sent from heaven to guide this country in solving its railway problems, and he is not in the House to direct us. What do we know about this bill?