January 27, 1926

CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS

NEGOTIATIONS FOR ERECTING TORONTO OFFICE BUILDING


On the Orders of the Day:


LIB

James Alexander Robb (Minister of Trade and Commerce; Minister of Finance and Receiver General)

Liberal

Hon. J. A. ROBB (Minister of Finance):

Mr. Speaker, yesterday the Minister of Justice (Mr. Lapointe) promised to obtain and give certain information in answer to an inquiry from the hon. member for Toronto Northwest (Mr. Church). I now have that information, and it is as follows:

With reference to the question asked by the hon. member for Toronto Northwest, relative to a statement made by the Deputy Minister of Railways, which is set out on page 429 of Hansard, the statement as given by the deputy minister is correct, but further negotiations are being carried on by the syndicate, who made the original offer to purchase the property for the sum of $1,250,000, and to erect a suitable building and lease suitable office space to the Canadian National Railways. On the result of these negotiations will depend whether the railway offices will be moved back into the old building or not.

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Subtopic:   NEGOTIATIONS FOR ERECTING TORONTO OFFICE BUILDING
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FUEL SUPPLY


On the Orders of the Day:


CON

Richard Bedford Bennett

Conservative (1867-1942)

Hon. R. B. BENNETT (West Calgary):

The Minister of the Interior (Mr. Stewart) has doubtless received a telegram from the Board of Trade of Calgary with respect to the coal situation. I do not know whether he is now in_a position to make any statement to the House with respect to what has taken place since our last sitting.

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LIB

Charles A. Stewart (Minister of Immigration and Colonization; Minister of Mines; Minister of the Interior; Superintendent-General of Indian Affairs)

Liberal

Hon. CHARLES STEWART (Minister of the Interior):

Mr. Speaker, I have nothing

to communicate to the House with respect to the movement of coal from the west beyond

Privilege-Mr. Meighen

what I stated yesterday. It is true that I have received a wire from Mr. Sutherland, representing the Calgary Board of Trade, asking that the movement be extended, and I have telegraphed to him the statement issued yesterday by Sir Henry Thornton that another 25,000 tons will be moved at a rate of $7 per ton.

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CON

Arthur Meighen (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MEIGHEN:

Has the minister nothing to say with respect to the Nova Scotia situation?

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LIB

Charles A. Stewart (Minister of Immigration and Colonization; Minister of Mines; Minister of the Interior; Superintendent-General of Indian Affairs)

Liberal

Mr. STEWART (West Edmonton):

I was just about to make a statement in regard to that. I notice that last evening the member for Halifax (Mr. Black) stated that he was in receipt of a wire from Premier Rhodes of Nova Scotia saying that no communication had reached Premier Rhodes from this government. That is true; I made inquiry today with respect to the matter. The message was sent through the Canadian Pacific Telegraph Company. It was filed here at 11.31 a.m. yesterday, and was not delivered to Mr. Rhodes until 10.20 last night at his hotel. I am in receipt of a telegram from Premier Rhodes. It is upon general matters, but incidentally coal is mentioned. It is a very lengthy wire and I have not yet had time to digest the contents. As yet no reply has been received from him to my wire of yesterday.

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PRIVILEGE-RIGHT HON. MR. MEIGHEN


On the Orders of the Day:


CON

Arthur Meighen (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Right Hon. ARTHUR MEIGHEN (Leader of the Opposition):

I am sorry to detain the House even for a moment in respect to a matter more or less personal to myself, but I feel it is just worth while and no more. I have been handed a copy of the Medicine Hat News of January 21st in which appears an article which purports to come from Ottawa. In justice to the press gallery let me say I do not believe any member of it was so malicious and imaginative as to send it out; I think it was invented at home. The article is headed "Nigger in the Tory Fence" and reads as follows:

Ottawa, January 19.-It was learned authoritatively to-day that when Hon. V. W. Smith, Minister of Railways in the ^Uberta government, was in the capital last week, he made definite pledges to Alberta Progressives on behalf of Right Hon. Arthur Meighen, Conservative leader. The pledges, which were ineffective in turning Progressive votes were:

(1) That Mr. Meighen, if brought into power, would take over the Edmonton, Dunvegan and B.C. railway at a fair valuation, put at $15,000,000, and then would turn it over to the National Railways and, (2) That Mr. Meighen would open negotiations with the B.C.

government with a view to acquiring the P.G.E., linking it up with the Peace River line.

According to Progressive members, Mr. Meighen would have been able to use the advantage conferred upon him by this situation so that he could have made a formidable bid for more members from Alberta. Also, it is said he could have greatly embarrassed the Oliver government. It is understood that the pledge has been renewed since Thursday's division with the object of bringing more Progressives into line.

I hope it is unnecessary for me to say, but I do say, that no word passed from me to the Hon. Mr. Smith justifying a word or a sentence or a thought that is embodied in this despatch, and I am equally confident that Hon. Mr. 'Smith never made representations to anybody to the effect set out in this report. The article is just an immoral adventure in political propaganda. It is nothing but vulgar mendacity.

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GOVERNOR GENERAL'S SPEECH ADDRESS IN REPLY


The House resumed from Tuesday, January 26, consideration of the motion of Mr. J. C. Elliott for an Address to His Excellency the Governor General in reply to his Speech at the opening of the session, and the proposed amendment thereto of Right Hon. Arthur Meighen.


LIB

Cameron Ross McIntosh

Liberal

Mr. C. R. McINTOSH (North Battleford):

When I moved the adjournment of the debate on the Address in reply to the Speech from the Throne last night, I was speaking on the question of immigration. I tried to leave the impression that the immigration problem is the most important one confronting the Dominion of Canada at the present time, and I would like now to advance the view that if we could put into action a policy by which we could increase our population four per cent per year-I mean four per cent natural increase and also the increase from outside sources-in five years our population would be practically eleven millions; in another five years, or ten years from the present time, it would be approximately thirteen millions, and in another five years, or fifteen years from the present time, it would be fifteen or sixteen millions. I am not going to say anything further on the question of immigration beyond the statement that it is a stupendous problem, and that the government of the day, by promising action upon it, has done a good thing for Canada.

Another pronouncement in the Speech from the Throne foreshadows the appointment of a royal commission to inquire into Maritime rights. That is another important Droblem before the people of Canada to-day, and I rejoice that the government is taking action

The Address-Mr. McIntosh

in that connection. I am not one of those Canadians who do not believe that there is in reality a Maritime problem. I believe there is really a problem in these provinces down by the sea, and I believe that the government of the day, by taking action in connection with that problem, obtaining all the facts in regard to it, and giving these facts to parliament, will be doing a great thing for the people of Canada. If I may venture a suggestion, Mr. Speaker, when the royal commission is appointed, as a Canadian I would like to see that commission made up entirely of Canadians. I would like to see at least one Maritime man on the commission, one from the central provinces and one from western Canada. If a commission of three will not be sufficient then make it five, but by all means appoint five representative Canadians, men who not only love Canada, who, understand her tasks and problems and will inquire into them, but men who will give their best ability to the unravelling of all the facts in connection with the question; so that when we come to deal with it we will do so in such a way that it will mean not only great development for the Dominion, but greater unity for Canada as a whole. We are prone to think of the Maritimes in respect to their location out in the north Atlantic, and to regard them as being detached from the rest of Canada. Mr. Speaker, we have in the Dominion a good deal of sectionalism, but I believe the time has come in the history of our country when that condition should be removed, entirely or, failing that, to as great an extent as possible. We have in the west the Rocky mountains dividing the prairies and the Pacific slope. We have between Ontario and the western provinces a thousand miles of slough, of rock, forest and mountain, and then we pass down through central Canada and come to the Maritime provinces, geographically separated, from the rest of Canada. It requires statesmanship to overcome these geographical difficulties, and although we have railways from coast to coast, although we have wireless, and although the west is practically settled, yet in Canada our problems are of such a nature that beyond all these facilities and beyond all these aids we need men who will face these problems resolutely and solve them for the good of the country.

In respect to the Maritime problem, I must say that I have a good deal of sympathy with -these provinces. I realize that in the province of Nova Scotia, we got the first incentive to representative government in Canada. In the early years of Nova Scotian development

we had the governor of that day in Halifax. He was given practically the whole power of government and for a time that authority remained with him. After a while he was given the power to appoint a council to aid him, and although that council was supposed to act in an advisory capacity only, yet it took unto itself certain powers in excess of those with which it had been entrusted. The people rose against it because it had exceeded its authority and in response to the public opinion of the day it was dqcided to summon a provincial assembly. That provincial assembly met in 1758, and that was practically 33 years ahead of the inauguration of representative government in Ontario. Not only did the Maritime provinces lay the foundations of representative government in Canada, not only did they point the way to representative and responsible institutions, but they contributed largely to the upbuilding of the Dominion by giving to its public life many eminent and splendid men

such men as Sir Charles Tupper, Sir Leonard Tilley, Hon. Joseph Howe, Sir Robert Borden and Sir John Thompson. I might go on and enumerate other eminent men for whose contribution to the upbuilding of the country we are indebted to the Maritime provinces. In connection with Sir Leonard Tilley I believe M'r. Speaker that there is an important fact which perhaps all of us in this House do not know. When we were organizing confederation, when we were deciding to launch upon that great adventure in national government, a difficulty arose as to the name that we would bestow upon the new confederation, and that difficulty was solved by a Maritime province man. The name was settled by Sir Leonard Tilley, and it was settled in this way. After discussing day after day the question of a suitable name, Sir Leonard Tilley went home, and, as was his custom, sought the Good Book. Turning to Psalm lxxii, 8, he found these words:

He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth.

Sir Leonard read that verse and said to himself, " Here is the name,-Dominion of Canada ". He went back, made the suggestion to his confreres and the name " Dominion " was accepted. I might g-o on and .show the contribution, outside of public affairs, which has been made to confederation or to the Dominion by other eminent men from the Maritime provinces. We have in Saskatchewan, as head of our provincial university President Murray. We have in Alberta another Maritime man, President Tory.

The Address-Mr. McIntosh

We have in Ontario President Falconer. So that educationally these eastern provinces have done well by the Dominion. To foreign lands Maritime men have gone forth and there won fame and honour. Jacob Gould Schur-man was president of Cornell University; after holding that position with honour for some time, he was appointed Governor of the Philippines, and is now Ambassador to China.

In connection with this Maritime problem, Mir. Speaker, it might be well just to say in conclusion, that the population of Nova Scotia has come from the United Empire Loyalist stock, from the Puritans from Scotland, from France and from Ireland. With such a population, and given the encouragement and support they ask, I am confident these people will go forward and meet and overcome the difficulties with which they are confronted. I believe the problem of the Maritimes is wrapped up with other great problems of Canada. I believe it is wrapped up with the problem of transportation, the problem of developing interprovincial trade, the problem of developing agriculture and dairying, and also the problem of trying to send all our trade through our ports, not only on the Pacific, not only on the Atlantic, but northward through the Hhdson bay to the markets of the world.

There is just one more pronouncement in the Speech from the Throne in respect to which I want to say a word, and that is the Hudson Bay railway-a project and a problem of special significance to Canada and especially to western Canada. If we look at a map of the world we can see at a glance that in a geographical sense the Hudson bay and strait play an important part in the development of this continent. I do not believe this country was ever brought into existence and formed as we see it to-day, with that great body of inland water, that mighty inland sea, stretching to the doors of Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Ontario, placed where it is for naught. I have greater faith in my country than to believe that. I believe it has been placed there because through its use the development of western Canada, and indeed of Canada as a whole, will take place. I believe the government of to-day, in making a pronouncement upon this great project, is doing a beneficial work for Canada. We have only to glance at a map in order to realize that the Hudson Bay railway, linking up western Canada and in fact the whole Dominion to that great inland sea, will be the means of shortening the distance from Europe through America to Asia. The distance from Liverpool to

eastern Asia by the Suez canal is practically 16,000 miles; by New York and San Francisco it is 11,000 miles, and by the Hudson bay route it is only 8,000 miles, or one-half of the distance from Europe through America to Asia. It will be a link, not only in an international highway but in the development of Canada, and it will bring about Canadian unity to a greater extent than heretofore.

The people of western Canada have been demanding this railroad since 1880, when a request was made by the province of Manitoba for the building of a road named the Manitoba and Hudson Bay railway. In 1881 another demand was made for the building of the Southern Saskatchewan and Hudson Bay railway. In 1884 Sir John A. Macdonald introduced into this parliament legislation providing for the construction of that road, and said that to back up the project 6,400 acres per mile in Manitoba, and 12,800 acres per mile in the territories would be given. After a while, on account of the Northern Pacific coming into Manitoba and railroad development taking place from Emerson into Winnipeg, interest in that great project subsided. Later on Mackenzie and Mann began to build their road from Gladstone to Dauphin and from Dauphin to Winnipegosis, and later still they secured control of the Hudson bay charter. After deciding to build in the direction of Prince Albert and westward into the prairies, they decided that they would also build from a point on that road to the Hudson bay. Later on that charter was relinquished, and in 1908, three years after Saskatchewan entered confederation, Hon. Frank Oliver, who was then Minister of the Interior, decided to do away with land grants and took the stand that pre-empted lands and homesteads should be sold in order to finance the project. To a large extent the project has been financed in that way; a certain amount of pre-empted and homestead lands have been sold and Canada has reaped financially in that respect, but the project is not yet completed. We however in western Canada are encouraged by the fact that this government intends to take action, and I believe when it does take action it will have the support of all groups and parties in this House. Sir Wilfrid Laurier took the ground that this road must be built; that this route must -be opened up to the markets of the world. Without it western Canada will never be satisfied, and until western Canada is satisfied as we are trying to satisfy the Maritimes, we cannot expect to have a united Dominion. Therefore the people in that part of the country claim that we

*178

The Address-Mr. McIntosh

should do our best to get started and to go ahead with this project so that the people of Canada may know that their public men are going to abide by both their past and their present statements and policies in respect to this matter.

In one respect similar results may follow from the completion of this road to those which came from the completion of the Ontario government road into New Ontario. When the road into that new mining area was mooted, it was said that it would never pay; that it would be a failure. But we know that after that road entered New Ontario and penetrated one of the greatest mining areas of the world, it not only became a paying proposition but is an asset not only to Ontario but to all Canada. (Moreover, when the Canadian Pacific was mooted away back in the eighties we heard it said that it would not pay even for the oil or grease required in driving the cars from province to province. But we know today that that was wrong because the Canadian Pacific is one of the greatest railway systems in the world. I believe when this road to the bay is completed it will become an international highway of repute and will not only pay its way but will develop the northern areas of the three western provinces. The development of Canada is neither to the east nor to the west; it is in the east, the west, and the north. As we open up that northland and develop its resources in pulpwood, gold, iron, copper, fish, timber, water-powers, and in many other respects, we are going to make a real contribution towards' the development of Canada as a whole.

In closing, I believe the completion of the Hudson Bay railway is necessary for the full and proper development of western Canada, of the transportation systems of Canada as a unit, and if we stand shoulder to shoulder as we ought, we can approach this problem and solve it. There is no other way in which to approach it. If the people of the west are going to be against every contribution in regard to national development in the east and the east is going to do the same in respect to the west, we shall not make much headway in developing our country. I believe the time has come when we are more united and when the government will get support in its action in this direction. When I look over the pages of Canadian history I realize that out from the early period of discovery and expansion, from that period of French imperialism, from the period of Cartier, Champlain, LaSalle and Frontenac on to the conquest and down to the present, we have become united so that we can go forward freely on

fMr. McIntosh.]

the way that lies before us. On the plains of Abraham stands a monument to two great races, to two great men, Wolfe and Montcalm. That monument is a living testimony to the fact that in Canada we must have unity of all nationalities, of all provinces, of all peoples, if we are to have a great country. Out of that period of conquest and down through the struggle for representative and responsible government into the great era of confederation and thence on into the days of the Great war we have gone steadily forward. I believe that if we go forward animated with the same spirit that has moved us in the past we can build up such a Canada as was anticipated by the Fathers of Confederation.

A story is told of a traveller, a professor from the city of New York, who after climbing a precipitous pathway in the Swiss Alps, from rock to rock and from boulder to boulder, finally lost his way. He did not know what to do; there was rock to the right of him and rock to the left of him, and as he sat down reflecting on his plight a bright haired, blue-eyed Swiss lad appeared before him. The professor inquired of the boy whether he could tell him the direction in which he should go to find his way again and the boy said, "Yes, go straight ahead over yon shining boulders and on the other side you will come to a pathway. Follow that road and you will reach in time the green fields on the other side of the mountain." The traveller followed this direction and finally reached his destination in safety. Now it seems to me that Canada is pretty much in the same position, and some of us are persuading ourselves that we are lost. Nationally we believe that we are surrounded by difficulties from which we cannot escape and we are apt to sit down in despair and do nothing. Personally I do not regard Canadian life in that light; I think that what we need is faith in this Dominion. There may be rock to the right of us and rock to the left of us and chasms ahead of us, but if we press onward I have no doubt that we shall emerge safely from our present situation. It seems to me that the true spirit of Canadian unity and of Canadian progress is well stated in those lines of Charles G. D. Eoberts in his poem, "Canada:"

Bat thou, my Country, dream not thou!

Wake, and behold how night in done,-

How on thy breast, and o'er thy brow,

Bursts the uprising sun!

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IND

William Findlay Maclean

Independent Conservative

Mr. W. F. MACLEAN (South York):

Before I say anything else, Mr. Speaker, I want to express my appreciation of the efforts of the hon. encyclopaedia from Saskatchewan, and next to apologize to you, Sir, and to the

The Address-Mr. Maclean (York)

House for leaving my own seat, which under the rules I am supposed to keep, and moving to the centre of the chamber. I am presuming to speak from this position because it is easier for me to address the majority of hon. members here, and I want to set an example to every other hon. gentleman who has something to say and who has paid some attention to the preparation of his subject. Any hon. member who speaks from the centre of the chamber stands a better chance of being heard and appreciated, and if this practice, irregular though it may be, is persisted in it may perhaps lead to a badly needed reform in the construction of this chamber, which is intended for a deliberative assembly. This is a very fine imitation of the palace of Westminster and of the cathedral churches of England, but inasmuch as we are likely to have groups in this House I think that some alteration in the arrangement of our seats here is necessary. To-day at dinner in the restaurant, as I was enjoying a piece of pumpkin pie, the suggestion came to me that the best arrangement would be to have Your Honour occupy a central position on the west side, with the seats of the members in a sort of semicircle to your right and left and in front of you, so that the representatives of every group might be heard and fill a slice of the pie.

Having said this much on a subject which I think should commend itself to the consideration of the House, I want to spend a few minutes in reviewing the present transportation problem in Canada, more especially in relation to the Canadian National Railways and certain other interests of the country. If we desire to arrive at a reasonable solution of our transportation difficulties in Canada I think we should consider the subject under two heads, first, transportation by land, and next, transportation by water. In regard to the first, we have of course the Canadian National Railways and the Canadian Pacific, these two systems providing the people of the country with freight trains and passenger services. Now, that freight train service may or may not change, but the passenger service in Canada is in process of a great revolution of which we cannot fail to take note. In this connection I would observe in passing that the Canadian people are not at all satisfied with the present passenger service and the suggestion is being made that there should be substituted for our present passenger trains, which are more or less lengthy and which run once or twice a day, the individual electric car, complete in itself, without any locomotive and running by its own motor. This car can carry up to seventy passengers and has baggage and express accommodation and accommodation for mails. It can make from thirty to fifty miles an hour and frequent trips throughout the day are possible. If our railways in Canada, both the Canadian National and the Canadian Pacific, wish to retain their passenger traffic they must use these small cars and give the people a more frequent service throughout the day. As regards freight trains, I shall deal with that question later.

In the matter of land transportation there is another agency or service which is rapidly developing in Canada, expanding enormously, and it constitutes a menace to our railways;

I refer to the competition of the automobile and the motor truck on our new highways in Ontario, Quebec and other provinces. The automobiles and motor trucks are securing nearly all of the local traffic by which the railways have so far been sustained, and where that competition is going to end I am at a loss to know. To show how efficient this motor service has become, I have only to say that many Toronto business houses are able to have their telephone orders given to outlying towns filled in the space of a few hours or half a day. An order is telephoned say to the town of Kitchener from a house in Toronto and the reply comes back that the motor truck will be at the customer's door that afternoon or, if the order comes in too late, the next morning; and this obviates the use of a railway warehouse, besides cartage and so forth. It does away with the delay which is unavoidable when freight has to go through the railway freight shed. I know a good many men now living in Toronto who prefer to travel to Montreal by means of their costly but very efficient automobiles, and even the man with the little Ford or in the little motor bus is now competing with our railways. Where this competition is going to end I do not know, but it is already a serious proposition for the railways, and I am certain that unless the railways themselves adopt these new forces they are going to lose their main business, the business from which they derive their best revenue, that is, the business of local transportation in its various forms.

But there is something else that also threatens our railways. A very able American announced the other day-and he said that he had ample financial backing-that he and his associates were going to build a new right of way on a concrete foundation, that there would be a complete separation of grades, and that on this right of way they would run rubber tired ears and would give a transportation service that could be speeded up to one hundred miles an hour without any trouble. If I am to believe what the press say about

480 COMMONS

The Address-Mr. Maclean (York)

it, that form of competition will be in operation within a year or two.

And still another force threatens our railways-air service is becoming one of the most advanced forms of transportation in the world. It was announced two or three weeks ago that Mr. Guggenheim had1 given two and a half million dollars to a certain university to encourage the study of aeronautics, with special regard to its possibilities for public transportation service, different from war. To-day the United States government has in operation one of the greatest air services in the world- and I want to emphasize the fact that that government is developing the service on an absolutely public ownership basis for the benefit of transportation. The great airways across the continent are marked out by electric lights at night so that the service can be maintained right through the twenty-four hours. The United States government appreciate the great possibilities of this form of transportation and already their mails are carried across the continent in less than a day and a half. Only first-class postal matter is handled, and, in addition, money and credits. Can you imagine what it means in the way of saving interest on millions and millions of dollars by the two or three days that are cut off the time taken by the railways? Our railways are threatened with that competition almost immediately. This form of transportation is prevalent in Europe to-day. A great proportion of the traffic between the European capitals is by airway. It may be some time before this competition is a factor in our railway situation, but undoubtedly it is coming.

Now I come to another form of competition that our railways have to meet-transportation by water. Transportation by water is an important factor in the movement of our western grain. Every day that I have sat in this House, except when we were discussing constitutional questions, our time has been taken up with transportation matters. As I say, we have a great deal to do with transportation on our lakes and also across the ocean. Indeed, last session we had before us a proposition in regard to ocean transportation. My friend from Marquette (Mr. Mullins) referred to it the other day, and I sympathize very much with his proposal that our government should fit up one of the vessels of the Canadian Government Merchant Marine for the transportation of live stock across the Atlantic in an effort to widen that market in the old country. I believe that eventually we shall see this undertaken. But a still more important form of water transportation threatens our present railroad and shipping systems. We fMr. W. F. Maclean.]

have practically committed ourselves to a treaty with the United States for the deepening of the St. Lawrence waterway that will enable ocean steamers drawing thirty or thirty-five feet not only to come to the present head of navigation, as Montreal is now called, but to go through our canals in the St. Lawrence and up into lake Ontario, and so make seaports of Kingston and Toronto. When the Welland canal is deepened-and the work is well under way-it will permit ocean-going vessels to go into lake Erie and make seaports of Buffalo and Fort Erie, Cleveland, Windsor, Sarnia and Detroit, thence into lake Huron and so make seaports of the shipping centres on Georgian bay, whence the Booth railway-the old Canada Atlantic-which is now incorporated in the Canadian National system, makes a direct airline to Montreal. Lake Michigan and lake Superior will also be opened to ocean-going boats, and consequently there will be seaports on every one of the Great Lakes. All the investigations that have been made up to date with respect to the feasibility of the St. Lawrence waterway and into the diversion of the waters of the Great Lakes for the benefit of Chicago and the Mississippi valley-all these things to my mind indicate a firm belief in the American people and in the people of this country that this great waterway will eventually be opened up to ocean-going boats, which will then become serious competitors of our railways. That is very significant, and I am going to deal with it in another phase in a few minutes. These various agencies of transportation are in competition with our railways, and they all follow lines of their own. It seems to me that if we as a nation are to undertake the solution of the question of transportation we will have to go into all these various agencies. If we do not compete with them, our present enormous investment in railways will be more or less scrapped. That is the transportation problem, and my argument is that if it is to be properly solved it must be approached as a public ownership proposition which will embrace railways, highways, waterways, and perhaps the motor truck services, welding them into one great combination.

Speaking of this new waterway system, there is a great financial combination in this country-and it has been very active-to hinder the development of the St. Lawrence waterway, as well as to impede the progress of the Canadian National Railways. I am led to believe that this opposition seems to have its centre in the city of Montreal and that it comes from my fellow countrymen in the province of Quebec. I do not believe that. They joined the name of the premier

The Address-Mr. Maclean (York)

of the province of Quebec with those responsible for this opposition, saying that he is more or less interested in the 'blocking of the waterways. But I believe that the people of Quebec and the people of Ontario are proud of our National railways and that they have a great appreciation for the Canadian Pacific as well. I am trying to bring to the attention of this House what a huge problem that of transportation is, and how we must approach it if we are to settle it. If it is true that the opposition to the Canadian National Railways is centered in Montreal, I call here and now for a showdown. I am going to name the very people who are said to be behind at and ask them if their object is to smash the Canadian National Railways.

First of all I name the newspapers, the Star, the Herald, and the others controlled by Lord Atholstan of Montreal, with which is also associated that good Tory newspaper, the Montreal Gazette. I challenge these papers to say here and now whether they are for the Canadian National Railways and public ownership or whether they are out to smash them and turn them over to the Canadian Pacific Railway. And then I am not afraid to challenge my fellow countrymen in the province of Quebec. They 4 p.m. have been misrepresented, as has been stated, but they are as true to the Canadian National Railways as we are in Ontario. I do not even need to ask them. But if you believe these papers, the whole of Montreal-

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LIB

Ernest Lapointe (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Liberal

Mr. LAPOINTE:

Do not believe them.

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IND

William Findlay Maclean

Independent Conservative

Mr. MACLEAN (York):

I do not believe it, but I am going to call these opponents to time. I am not only going to name Lord Atholstan but I also name the president of the Bank of Montreal and the president of the Royal Bank, both of whom are directors of the Canadian Pacific Railway Company. I am also going to (Challenge the whole organization of the Canadian Pacific Railway to say whether or not they are working to-day to destroy the Canadian National Railway system and put it out of business, in order to acquire it to their own company. I challenge all these people to say whether that is the object they have in mind. I have seen a good deal of their hand at work in the last election, as well as some other organizations in which they are interested. One such organization is that which they have in Montreal at Garden City-I think it is called the Railway Users Association. They are now distributing propaganda throughout 24011-31

this country; they say they are railway users, but I say they are agents of-and I will use a term which has been used before-the St. James street group of Montreal. If it is true that Montreal as a city and Quebec as a province are against the National railways, the sooner the headquarters of the Canadian National are taken out of that city and brought to Ottawa the better for the people of Canada.

Having said that, I am going to take up another phase of the situation and deal with the question of public ownership. We know what public ownership is in Ontario. We have a hydro-electric system which is the admiration of all the world, which is publicly owned and in which there is no profit. We have public ownership there; we have public ownership in the street railway system and the motor bus service of Toronto, and I am told that they are going to supplement that service by a system of taxis at cheap rates. It is said that the Montreal group not only hates public ownership but hates it especially >in the way it has manifested itself in Ontario. But we have more than that; Ontario has a splendid railway called the Temiskaming and Northern Ontario Railway, which opened up the silver fields and the new gold fields of Ontario and which has given an impetus to the opening of the Rouyn field in Quebec. Ontario has set an example to all the other provinces in the way of building its own roads to open up the province. We have many other instances of public ownership; in the eyes of some it is apparently a crime to advocate such a thing, but sentiment favourable to that policy is growing all over the country. I want to tell this House now-and I hope hon. gentlemen will ponder it well-that the great proposition before the-world to-day is to take the profiteering out of the great public services and to distribute those services at cost to the people who participate in them. That is the underlying principle. One of the first persons who, in a public way, has taken it up is Mr.'Baruch of New York, whom I believe to be a German by birth. He has given a large sum of money towards the development of the idea of taking profiteering out of war. Profiteering was one of the causes of that disastrous war through which we recently passed. Hundreds and thousands of fortunes were made out of that war, not only on this continent but also on the continent of Europe, and that is the menace of the world to-day. People are awakening to that fact, not only here but to a greater degree in the United States, and they are beginning to advocate the removal of profiteering from

4S2 COMMONS

The Address-Mr. Maclean (York)

the great public services. What I mean by profiteering is dividends for shareholders as against bank interest on the money involved.

I want to give a recent example of public ownership that will probably astound this House, and I am going to give it on my responsibility as a citizen, a very ordinary citizen of this country. After a good deal of investigation I find that undoubtedly the greatest instance of public ownership to-day is the National Reserve bank system of the United States. And this is where I issue my challenge to the Wall Street Journal: The National Reserve bank system of the United States has in its possession for the people of that country billions of gold in bars or in coinage, other millions in coinage subsidiary of gold, and it has an unlimited number of its own notes. The best money in the world is the national note of the people of the United States issued from the treasury at Washington. And this great banking organization is doing-and this is where it comes in as a public ownership proposition-what the United States to-day, through its treasury organization and the National bank reserve, is doing, namely, all the rediscounting for all the banks of the United States at actual cost. Does my right hon. friend laugh at that?

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CON

Arthur Meighen (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MEIGHEN:

No, I have a humorist

behind me.

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January 27, 1926