Sir HENRY DRAYTON:

I never said that and the hon. gentleman ought to be able to know I did not say that. He knows very well I did not say it. I could not have said it.

Mr. STEWART (Argenteuil):

Look in

Hansard.

Sir HENRY DRAYTON:

We will forget what has been said, and I now ask the Minister of the Interior what changes were made, except the change in the preamble and the addition of the words "straitened circumstances." What else was there?

Mr. STEWART (Argenteuil):

If my hon. friend admits that and sticks to that ground I have no complaint.

Sir HENRY DRAYTON:

That is the only ground I have ever taken-nothing else. I have dealt with the preamble.

Mr. POULIOT:

Does the hon. member

think the preamble is material or immaterial to the bill?

Sir HENRY DRAYTON:

I have already tried to make plain that the preamble in the legal sense may be of great importance. It is a matter of great importance where there is a question as to the proper interpretation of the clauses of the act. In that case it is important.

Mr. GRAHAM:

Is not the preamble really the foundation of the bill?

Sir HENRY DRAYTON:

Not at all. If my hon. friend is right in that, the bill is no good without a preamble, because it is without foundation, and in that case it is useless. My hon. friend is entirely wrong; but in this case-and I am now addressing myself to the hon. member who asked me the question-in this case there is no question of doubt as to the terms, and therefore, there is no importance in the preamble. The act will be construed exactly the same with or without the preamble. Now I come to the other point-

Mr. POULIOT:

Does the hon. member

think it is better to have a reason to do something than to have none?

Sir HENRY DRAYTON:

The hon. gentleman is quite right. It is better to have a reason. I would be pleased if we could always have the reasons stated fairly and honestly by this government. I have no doubt as to my reasons and where I stand. I would commend1 my hon. friend to turn his hand to preaching the gospel to this government.

I come to the second point. What is the difference between " need " and " straitened circumstances"? Anybody that is at all honest with himself knows there is no difference. Not a single extra depositor of the Home Bank will get five cents as a result of that amendment, and no one knows that better than the government itself. The signal for retreat is sounded. The flags 4 a.m. are furled. The government come back. We have to take just what the Senate says. All opportunity has been lost of having in that conference a real consideration of the claims of the depositors, and everything that I said before this question went over to the Senate has been proven to be true. I want to see these depositors helped. As a result of the position which my hon. friend has deliberately placed himself in, I do not see how we can get anything more for them now unless, of course, another estimate were submitted. But as the matter stands now, even at the expense of the constitutional claims of this chamber being flouted, there are the compelling rights and needs of 80 per cent of the depositors, and as a result of the manner in which the government has handled the constitutional question on the one side and the claims of the depositors on the other, I have no objection to action being taken now along the course that is indicated.

,5062

Home Bank

Right Hon. GEORGE P. GRAHAM (Minister of Railways and Canals): I will not say much, because very little is required.

Sir HENRY DRAYTON:

, We will give the right hon. member a proper hearing in any case. We shall perhaps show some of the right hon. gentleman's followers what they should do.

Mr. GRAHAM:

I think the dropping of

this preamble by the Senate is of more moment than my hon. friend suggests. One of the points in the preamble to which strong objection was and ought to be taken is that the upper chamber presumed to speak for the government. Let me read the preamble:

Whereas certain creditors of the Home Bank of Canada have by their petition to the Governor in Council represented that they have, by the suspension of that bank, sustained serious losses which they are ill able to bear, and have prayed that pecuniary aid may be afforded them on the grounds of commiseration and of an alleged moral responsibility of the government of Canada, for the causes of sudh losses; and whereas such responsibility is not admitted, but it is expedient to afford pecuniary aid to certain of the said creditors as provided, by this act: Therefore His Majesty, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate and House of Commons of Canada, enacts as follows:

With that amendment inserted, the position of the Senate would be confirmed that they practically had a right really to initiate a money bill on behalf of the government. I say that to get the consent of the Senate to remove that preamble altogether was a very long step towards the contention of this House as presented to the Senate in the objections raised by this House to the acceptance of the amendment.

Mr. MEIGHEN:

Imagination.

Mr. GRAHAM:

My right hon. friend says "imagination.'' We have had enough imagination. I am going to stick to facts. The ex-Minister of Finance (Sir Henry Drayton) made a statement that, I think, cannot be borne out by the evidence, that is that there had not been any attempt on the part of this House to change the mind of the Senate on any essentials.

Sir HENRY DRAYTON:

On the merits.

Mr. GRAHAM:

I will take the merits

then. He was not at that conference.

Sir HENRY DRAYTON:

I am taking the reasons. I have a right to do so. They are in writing.

Mr. MEIGHEN:

The point is this. The

conference could not take up anything except what was urged in the Commons resolutions, and they did not go into the merits at all.

Mr. GRAHAM:

My right hon. friend is

wrong. He is like the man ,in gaol. Noth withstanding the fact that his lawyer told him he could not be put there, he was there. Notwithstanding the fact that my right hon. friend says that we could not discuss in the conference the merits of the case, we did discuss them.