June 25, 1925

CON

James Arthurs

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. ARTHURS:

Is the total cost of these two publications included in the $35,000 vote under item No. 252?

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Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF LABOUR
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LIB

James Murdock (Minister of Labour)

Liberal

Mr. MURDOCK:

In the Labour department vote, yes.

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CON

Henry Lumley Drayton

Conservative (1867-1942)

Sir HENRY DRAYTON:

Why is it that we have a change in the printing of Hansard? We now 'have the index printed separately, so that we have to get two volumes from the Library.

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Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF LABOUR
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LIB

James Murdock (Minister of Labour)

Liberal

Mr. MURDOCK:

Two years ago the leader of the opposition (Mr. Meighen) very properly brought to our attention two or three days after the session had opened the fact that the bound copies of Hansard were not before us. Of course, we did not want to have such a delay as that if we could avoid it. Last year we found that the printing, numbering, binding and so forth of any of these volumes could not be done until all the index had been completed. We went along to the 19th day of July before the House closed. Then many of the employees that had been on continuous duty for quite a long while were taking their holidays until we found it was getting pretty late in the fall and we were not going to be able to get the properly indexed Hansard. A suggestion was made that if we could print only one index instead of four or five indexes, we could save a great deal of paper, four quantities of paper equal to the total amount of paper used in the printing of the index, and then we could print the index in a separate volume. I am told by the Printing Bureau officers that only one protest has been raised against that practice which it was thought would make Hansard handier if anything by having a separate volume of the index, so that an individual by iooking at it would know whether it was volume 1, 2, 3 or 4 he wanted for any particular subject he desired to look up. Those are briefly the reasons why that was done. Whether that practice is to be continued or not, we think it will be a saving. Hansard for this session will occupy four or five volumes. We think this will save a great deal of paper which it was thought was unnecessarily wasted in the past by printing an index for each volume of Hansard when one index for all the volumes would do.

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PRO

Thomas Wakem Caldwell

Progressive

Mr. CALDWELL:

I understand the minister said that the Printing Bureau had received only one protest. I have felt like

fMr. Arthurs.]

protesting to everybody I have met, but I could not find anybody who would take the responsibility. I think the Printing Bureau print what they are instructed to print, and I do not think this should be laid at their door at all. It is very inconvenient and I cannot agree with the view that it will save money. To my mind, it will cost more to bind a separate volume of the index than the cost of the quantity of paper used to print four other copies of the index. As regards the saving of time, the volumes are not much good until the index is printed, and I doubt if the volumes were distributed until the index was printed. Possibly this was done with a good object in view, but I do not think it should be done again and I hope it will not be. Every member to whom I have spoken about the matter-and I have spoken about it to a good many-has felt as I do. I think every hon. member who does not approve that method of printing should register his protest. I am going to register mine as definitely as I can. A member sends a page to the library for a volume and he has to send again to get the index. It is veiy convenient, when you get a volume out of the library or any other place at your home, not to have to lug around two volumes in order to find what you want to find. I hope this practice will be discontinued. I do not think it is economical. I know it is inconvenient and I seriously hope it will not be continued.

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Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF LABOUR
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LIB

James Murdock (Minister of Labour)

Liberal

Mr. MURDOCK:

My hon. friend is surely mistaken in suggesting that there will be more printing and binding. There will be less-

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PRO
LIB

James Murdock (Minister of Labour)

Liberal

Mr. MURDOCK:

For the reason that

we can now put 1,000 or 1,200 pages into each volume of Hansard.

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Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF LABOUR
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PRO
LIB

James Murdock (Minister of Labour)

Liberal

Mr. MURDOCK:

We all know that in

every volume heretofore there was a repetition of the entire index of Hansard. Therefore, there Were simply hundreds of additional pages of the index printed and put into each volume of Hansard. Of course if hon. members want that done-

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Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF LABOUR
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?

Some hon. MEMBERS:

No, no.

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LIB

James Murdock (Minister of Labour)

Liberal

Mr. MURDOCK:

I assume entire responsibility for giving the final word in regard to this. It seems to me that if hon. members would get in the habit of saying "Give me the index for 1923" they could look at the index and they would know whether the

Supply-Labour

discussion they wanted to see was in volume 2, 3, 4 or 5, and they would send for that particular volume. In this way you are not stocking your shelves with four or five reprints of the index, but you will have your index in a nice, neatly bound little volume, and I certainly would like some instructions on this because we have not had any instructions yet. This has been done to reduce the cost and to simplify the Hansard for use. Of course, if hon. members do not want it done in that way, we should be told to go back to the old system.

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Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF LABOUR
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LAB

William Irvine

Labour

Mr. IRVINE:

I think the index system

is a very decided improvement, and I hope the minister will not make the alteration that' has been suggested. If a member knows the Hansard in which the matter he wants to refer. to is printed, he does not need an index; but if he has to send for four or five copies in order to get the items he wants he will find a great deal of difficulty. As the thing is done at present, all he is required to do is to lock a: the index, and he can find the item he wishes to refer to. That method is far in advance of the other system.

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PRO

Thomas Wakem Caldwell

Progressive

Mr. CALDWELL:

I am surprised that

as bright a man as the hon. member for East Calgary would present such an argument. He says he would have to get four or five volumes to find out what he wants. My hon. friend has not caught the point. With the present system of index you have to send for the index before you know what volume you want at all. Under the old system the index was inserted in each volume, so that you could find out by looking in the first volume where the item you wished to refer to appeared, just as easily as if you had the index. A man who had all his faculties would not have to send for the second volume. He would find it in the first volume.

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Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF LABOUR
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LIB

James Murdock (Minister of Labour)

Liberal

Mr. MURDOCK:

The thing he wanted

might not be in that book.

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Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF LABOUR
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PRO

Thomas Wakem Caldwell

Progressive

Mr. CALDWELL:

He has to send for

the index first under the proposed arrangement, in order to find out where he will find the reference he wants, but if the index is printed with each volume he will be able to find his reference in any volume, and if it is not in the volume which he has got, all he has to do is send for the volume in which it appears, just the same as if he had referred to the index.

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LIB

Charles Gavan Power

Liberal

Mr. POWER:

What does the hon. gentlemain want to read the book for anyway?

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PRO

Thomas Wakem Caldwell

Progressive

Mr. CALDWELL:

I do not quite understand how the hon. member for East Calgary 314i

can suggest that you would have to send for four or five volumes before you got what you wanted.

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Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF LABOUR
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PRO

George Gibson Coote

Progressive

Mr. COOTE:

I would like to protest to

the minister against the change he has made.

I think he stated that he had only heard one protest. I hope many members will rise and make a brief protest against putting the index in a volume by itself. I sent to the Library oin one occasion for a volume of Hansard containing a certain debate, and when it came I found the place and put a mark in the book. It lay on my desk and some member came along and removed it, so that I had to send to the Library for the index in order to find out in what part of Hansard this debate appeared, although I had the volume on my desk. I could not find the partial debate without looking through a thousand pages.

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Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF LABOUR
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LIB

Charles Gavan Power

Liberal

Mr. POWER:

Was the hon. member deprived of making a speech on that occasion?

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Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF LABOUR
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June 25, 1925