Mr. ROSS (Kingston):

How many engineers are covered by these two votes?

Mr. GRAHAM:

In surveys and inspections? We have three, I think, altogether.

Mr. ROSS (Kingston):

And in the railways?

Mr. GUTHRIE:

There is a great deal of

force in what the hon. member for Kingston has said. For years the government of this country has been over-staffed in regard to the survey and engineering forces. There has been talk from time to time of consolidations, but the consolidations have never yet taken place. In Washington they have consolidated this work, and have effected an enormous saving in consequence. In Washington the Department of the Secretary of State for War has charge of the whole survey staff of the government, and the whole engineering staff for construction purposes. That department carries on all government construction and all government survey work in the United States. Here we have engineering staffs and survey staffs in many departments. In the Interior department we have a very large surveys branch; in the Public Works department we have a very large engineering staff. I omit the Department of Railways and Canals because I think it is essential that they should have a staff of their own. But there are

Supply-Ra.ttwo.ys and Canals

other departments which have engineering and survey branches, and I do not see why they should not be consolidated in a single department. I am satisfied, and everyone who has looked into the matter is satisfied, that there is overlapping in regard to this work, and I think the government would be entitled to the thanks of the country if they were to start to consolidate the staffs of the engineering and survey branches in the various departments.

Mr. COOTE:

Would the minister give us

some details showing how he intends to spend this amount?

Mr. GRAHAM:

There are regular positions on the canals throughout Canada, as follows: Province of Quebec, 595; Ontario,

St. Lawrence, 212; St. Peters, 10; Rideau, 143; Trent, 224; Welland, 388; Welland, elevator, 133; Sault Ste. Miarie, 58; or a total of 1,701. Then, engaged in construction on the Welland ship canal are 358, and in the St. Lawrence waterways investigation, 37, but they do not come under this vote. The staff that does come under this vote comprises l,iur umpiujcco on all the canals.

Mr. LEWIS:

These works are chargeable

to collection of revenue. Does this service nearly pay for itself?

Mr. GRAHAM:

Oh no. We have a staff, for instance, on the Trent canal, and we are collecting revenue for water, and so on; we also keep a statistical staff for the canals, but under an agreement made between the United States and Canada neither country charges any tolls on the canals, and consequently there is no revenue except what might come from water-powers along some of the canals.

Mr. COOTE:

The largest part of this

vote will be for the staff who operate the canals, the loekmen, and so forth?

Mr. GRAHAM:

Yes, for operation and

maintenance. In addition to what I have already mentioned, there are land leases. Many of the properties held for the canals are leased, some of them in connection with water-powers, and others, at Montreal, for instance, for warehouses and all that kind of thing.

Mr. COOTE:

How much of this vote

would be for the staff on the Trent canal?

Mr. GRAHAM:

$118,000. All these staffs

are under the Civil Service Commission.

Mr. LEWIS:

If there is no revenue, why

is this vote entitled "chargeable to collection of revenue"?

Mr. GRAHAM:

That is one of the things that I do not think my hon. friend would understand if he was in the department ^ for forty years. We have three items, capital, revenue and income, and for book-keeping purposes the votes are kept under these three heads. It is true there is not a sufficient revenue to pay for this service, although it is chargeable to revenue account.

Mr. COOTE:

There are really four headings, are there not-capital, revenue, staff, and repairs.

Mr. GRAHAM:

Staff and repairs should read without any comma. That would come under revenue.

Mr. COOTE:

I have a return here in regard to the Trent canal showing the expenditure under four heads, capital, income, staff, and repairs, and a separate column is given for each. I did not notice I had these figures when I asked the minister if there were not four accounts kept. This return shows that last year $113,000 was spent for staff, $88,000 for repairs, $129,000 under the heading of income,^ and $156,000 under the heading of capital, in connection with the Trent canal.

Mr. GRAHAM:

As I pointed out a few minutes ago, I deducted $183,000 from capital and put that under income, believing jit should not be charged to capital, but rather to current expenses. There is no vote for staff and repairs except under the head of revenue.

Mr. COOTE:

Am I to understand that revenue and income is the same thing ?-