June 2, 1925

CON

Arthur Meighen (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MEIGHEN:

There should have been one put on in the spring of 1922 after the American tariff was known. It was because of failure to enforce the policy which my hon. friend himself demanded in this House.

Topic:   SUPPLY-TARIFF REVISION MOTION IN AMENDMENT PRESENTED BY RIGHT HON. MR. MEIGHEN
Subtopic:   SOME REDUCTIONS IN CANADIAN TARIFF RATES SINCE THE WAR COMPARED WITH INCREASES WHICH OTHER COUNTRIES HAVE MADE ON THE
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LIB

Herbert Meredith Marler

Liberal

Mr. MARLER:

Will my right hon. friend-

Topic:   SUPPLY-TARIFF REVISION MOTION IN AMENDMENT PRESENTED BY RIGHT HON. MR. MEIGHEN
Subtopic:   SOME REDUCTIONS IN CANADIAN TARIFF RATES SINCE THE WAR COMPARED WITH INCREASES WHICH OTHER COUNTRIES HAVE MADE ON THE
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?

Some hon. MEMBERS:

Order.

Topic:   SUPPLY-TARIFF REVISION MOTION IN AMENDMENT PRESENTED BY RIGHT HON. MR. MEIGHEN
Subtopic:   SOME REDUCTIONS IN CANADIAN TARIFF RATES SINCE THE WAR COMPARED WITH INCREASES WHICH OTHER COUNTRIES HAVE MADE ON THE
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CON

William Alves Boys (Whip of the Conservative Party (1867-1942))

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BOYS:

Sit down. You make us tired.

Topic:   SUPPLY-TARIFF REVISION MOTION IN AMENDMENT PRESENTED BY RIGHT HON. MR. MEIGHEN
Subtopic:   SOME REDUCTIONS IN CANADIAN TARIFF RATES SINCE THE WAR COMPARED WITH INCREASES WHICH OTHER COUNTRIES HAVE MADE ON THE
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LIB

Herbert Meredith Marler

Liberal

Mr. MARLER:

Let us be reasonable in

discussing this thing; let us not act like children. If my right hon. friend does not desire me to ask a question-

Topic:   SUPPLY-TARIFF REVISION MOTION IN AMENDMENT PRESENTED BY RIGHT HON. MR. MEIGHEN
Subtopic:   SOME REDUCTIONS IN CANADIAN TARIFF RATES SINCE THE WAR COMPARED WITH INCREASES WHICH OTHER COUNTRIES HAVE MADE ON THE
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?

Some hon. MEMBERS:

Order.

Topic:   SUPPLY-TARIFF REVISION MOTION IN AMENDMENT PRESENTED BY RIGHT HON. MR. MEIGHEN
Subtopic:   SOME REDUCTIONS IN CANADIAN TARIFF RATES SINCE THE WAR COMPARED WITH INCREASES WHICH OTHER COUNTRIES HAVE MADE ON THE
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CON

Arthur Meighen (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MEIGHEN:

Well, get to the question as soon as possible.

Topic:   SUPPLY-TARIFF REVISION MOTION IN AMENDMENT PRESENTED BY RIGHT HON. MR. MEIGHEN
Subtopic:   SOME REDUCTIONS IN CANADIAN TARIFF RATES SINCE THE WAR COMPARED WITH INCREASES WHICH OTHER COUNTRIES HAVE MADE ON THE
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LIB

Herbert Meredith Marler

Liberal

Mr. MARLER:

I say this to my right

hon. friend: in all fairness, how could a policy engendered in 1922 have affected policies in 1922? It is. only possible for a policy to have effect after it is put in force, not before.

Topic:   SUPPLY-TARIFF REVISION MOTION IN AMENDMENT PRESENTED BY RIGHT HON. MR. MEIGHEN
Subtopic:   SOME REDUCTIONS IN CANADIAN TARIFF RATES SINCE THE WAR COMPARED WITH INCREASES WHICH OTHER COUNTRIES HAVE MADE ON THE
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CON

Arthur Meighen (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MEIGHEN:

I would think so, yes.

Topic:   SUPPLY-TARIFF REVISION MOTION IN AMENDMENT PRESENTED BY RIGHT HON. MR. MEIGHEN
Subtopic:   SOME REDUCTIONS IN CANADIAN TARIFF RATES SINCE THE WAR COMPARED WITH INCREASES WHICH OTHER COUNTRIES HAVE MADE ON THE
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LIB

Herbert Meredith Marler

Liberal

Mr. MARLER:

These failures were the

result of policies before 1922.

Topic:   SUPPLY-TARIFF REVISION MOTION IN AMENDMENT PRESENTED BY RIGHT HON. MR. MEIGHEN
Subtopic:   SOME REDUCTIONS IN CANADIAN TARIFF RATES SINCE THE WAR COMPARED WITH INCREASES WHICH OTHER COUNTRIES HAVE MADE ON THE
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CON

Arthur Meighen (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MEIGHEN:

The hon. gentleman's

idea of an interrogation is about the same as his idea of consistency. One would think the fall of 1922 and the summer were after the spring. I think the hon. gentleman also has business acumen enough to know that the effect or tendency is seen at once.

Topic:   SUPPLY-TARIFF REVISION MOTION IN AMENDMENT PRESENTED BY RIGHT HON. MR. MEIGHEN
Subtopic:   SOME REDUCTIONS IN CANADIAN TARIFF RATES SINCE THE WAR COMPARED WITH INCREASES WHICH OTHER COUNTRIES HAVE MADE ON THE
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LIB

Herbert Meredith Marler

Liberal

Mr. MARLER:

Not at all.

Topic:   SUPPLY-TARIFF REVISION MOTION IN AMENDMENT PRESENTED BY RIGHT HON. MR. MEIGHEN
Subtopic:   SOME REDUCTIONS IN CANADIAN TARIFF RATES SINCE THE WAR COMPARED WITH INCREASES WHICH OTHER COUNTRIES HAVE MADE ON THE
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CON

Arthur Meighen (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MEIGHEN:

It is not? I wonder

if there was no effect in the city of Montreal when the announcements of 1922 were made, no effect when the announcements of 1923 were made? There was an effect on the hon. gentleman himself.

Now, as to the unit capital of these failures: In 1924 the average liability per failure in the United States was $55,083, and in Canada $58,467, showing that the average industry which failed in Canada in that year was larger than the average in the United States. Over the whole three years the average in the United States was $49,838 and in Canada $48,069, showing clearly that the same type of industry is considered in each, and showing indisputably that Canada, relatively to its competitor, under the tariff policy of hon. gentlemen opposite, has suffered and suffered grievously in its industrial life.

Now to proceed to one or two facts. Hon. gentlemen say: Oh, but look at our exports,

they are greater than before; look at the amount we are selling, and look at our imports. They are now taking credit because those impor' s are reducing. The imports are reducing. Exports in a year of large harvests or large prices increase, and the government and government policy have little or nothing to do with either. But the kernel of the thing is this, as illustrated in some excellent material provided by the same member for Toronto: The character of our exports is in the main

Supply-Tariff Revision

raw material; the character of our imports is manufactured goods. The analysis made by the hon. : lember shows that for the year 1923, of our exports in wood and wood manufactures 64 per cent was raw material, and only 36 per cent goods partially or wholly manufactured; and in the sphere of non-ferrous metals, our exports were 77^ per cent raw material, and only 22i per cent manufactured. In our imports the very reverse is the case. In wood and wood products only 27 per cent of the i.mpor'ation was raw material to be used for manufacture here and [DOT] 73 per cent manufactured goods; and in non-ferrous metals 13 per cent of our importation was raw material and 87 per cent manufactured goods. I wonder if those facts sink into the mind of the Acting Minister of Finance. They illustrate the whole character of our trade.

Topic:   SUPPLY-TARIFF REVISION MOTION IN AMENDMENT PRESENTED BY RIGHT HON. MR. MEIGHEN
Subtopic:   SOME REDUCTIONS IN CANADIAN TARIFF RATES SINCE THE WAR COMPARED WITH INCREASES WHICH OTHER COUNTRIES HAVE MADE ON THE
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LIB

James Alexander Robb (Minister of Immigration and Colonization)

Liberal

Mr. ROBB:

My hon. friend has been quoting the figures for 1923. Is he going on to bring the figures up to date, for 1924 and 1925?

Topic:   SUPPLY-TARIFF REVISION MOTION IN AMENDMENT PRESENTED BY RIGHT HON. MR. MEIGHEN
Subtopic:   SOME REDUCTIONS IN CANADIAN TARIFF RATES SINCE THE WAR COMPARED WITH INCREASES WHICH OTHER COUNTRIES HAVE MADE ON THE
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CON

Arthur Meighen (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MEIGHEN:

I am coming to 1924. In 1924 our imnorts went down some $93,000,000. When a country is struggling, its imports usually go down, but what accounts for the diminution? Does it show better figures would obtain in 1924? It shows that worse figures would obtain. In non-ferrous metals alone the reduction of our importations of raw or slightly manufactured goods, which are the goods used in Canadian factories where men are employed, was from $145,000,000 to $107,000.000, or almost half the whole reduction in importation, a reduction of twenty-eight and a fraction per cent in that one line of raw material alone, and the largest reduction in any other single sphere, that is, reducrion applicable to manufactured goods, was six and a fraction per cent. This indicates that the story of 1924 is not any more heartening, indeed less so, than the story of 1923.

Now what would one expect to be the visible consequence of a course such as this? Let us look around and see. What are the consequences on railway traffic? The resolution which I move declares that a reversion of policy in this regard is necessary for the sake of traffic in Canada, and in order that in the transport of our goods there may be some prospect of a reduction of rates. Those consequences are revealed in the speech of the hon. member for West York (Sir Henry Drayton). As every

hon. gentleman knows, the traffic carried by Canadian railways in 1924 went down by from nine to ten million tons. Of that reduction

2.300,000 tons is accounted for by a lower

(Mr. Mrighen.]

crop return, a lower gross production of grain; for that the government is in no way responsible. The balance, though, is accounted for by something else altogether, an actual reduction of goods produced in our country, resulting in a reduction of traffic in Canada. I have before me some of the figures used by the hon. member for West York, and it is worth while, I think, placing them again on Hansard.

The hon. member showed that the reduction in iron ere tonnage was some 443,000 tons; in rails and fastenings, 50,000 tons; in pig iron and bloom, 275,000 tons; in iron pipe and structural iron, 639,000 tons; in castings, machinery and boilers, 144,000 tons; in coke, 266,000 tons; miscellaneous manufactures, 844,000 tons; lumber, timber, box shooks, staves and headings, 835,000 tons. In a word, the reduction varies from 18 per cent on rails and fastenings to 43 per cent on iron, pig and bloom, up as high as 72 per cent on iron ores. Thousands of railway employees lost their positions. This is some illustration of the effect of Canadian business in general of the contraction which has followed in years of either large crops in Canada or large prices in Canada from the policy pursued by this administration.

But these effects are visible in other forms in still more distressing degree. I come to that phase of our troubles which illustrates the results more poignantly than anything else. Canada always has had a struggle to maintain her population. Competing with a country of vast industrial development, that struggle has been no light one through the whole term of our history, but the conditions now, no matter how you may twist figures, no matter what letters you may read, no matter what allowances you may make, the conditions now as known to everybody are nothing short of appalling. I would like any hon. member of this House to go into any town in Canada, yes, I almost said into any countryside, and there address any good, upstanding Canadian, any intelligent person, and ask him what he has witnessed in the last two or three years in this Dominion. Ask him whether his neighbours are going south, or whether the southern people are coming here. Present to him all the statistics you like; read him the whole speech of the Minister of Labour-the minister shudders before the prospect-do all these things, and then ask him what he has actually observed, and what is going to be his answer? Go outside the walls of this House and speak to the Canadian citizen; ask him what is happening on his own street, ask him what is going on in

Supply-Tariff Revision

his nearest industry, ask him what indeed is taking place in his own family. Will he tell you of the boy who could not get work in the United States and came back here to get a fine job? How many cases of that kind would you discover? There is no use talking about 4.C00 a month coming back from the United States. Let us find where the 4,000 are. Does the Minister of Labour meet them and shake them by the hand? I do not see them. The figures given from the records of the United States government by the member for Parry Sound (Mr. Arthurs) cannot possibly be controverted, if indeed, figures are necessary at all. There they make every allowance for those who return; they make every allowance for everything that can be recorded in government statistics, and they show that in the fiscal year 1923 there was a net loss to Canada in favour of the United States of 102,520, and in 1924 a net loss of 181,194. These figures, relative to our population, are appalling. But they do not tell the whole story. We all know that under the American law the alien immigrant from Canada cannot get into the United States-he has to be smuggled in. We know, as well, that the Canadian born cannot get in himself save bv paying a head tax and he avoids it; a large number surreptitiously enter that country. Those three classes have to be added together to get the total. I hesitate to give what the investigations which I have looked into show to be that total. You cannot get them from government statistics because there are no records of smuggled aliens, there are no records of the surreptitious entrance of Canadian-born. The New York World-which would not be described as a Tory organ, I hope-conducted an investigation into this question. The investigator went into the various centres of this country, calling on American consuls in particular, and obtained the best data he could, and anyone who reads his articles will see that he was very thorough in the work he did. In the issue of that journal of Wednesday, May 13 I read the following-but first of all this investigator expresses the belief that the earnings from smuggling aliens from Canada into the United States in 1924 would amount to

810,000,000.

Topic:   SUPPLY-TARIFF REVISION MOTION IN AMENDMENT PRESENTED BY RIGHT HON. MR. MEIGHEN
Subtopic:   SOME REDUCTIONS IN CANADIAN TARIFF RATES SINCE THE WAR COMPARED WITH INCREASES WHICH OTHER COUNTRIES HAVE MADE ON THE
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PRO

Robert Forke

Progressive

Mr. FORKE:

Does not the right hon.

gentleman think if possible that a number of those aliens who were smuggled into the United States came to Canada with that intention?

Topic:   SUPPLY-TARIFF REVISION MOTION IN AMENDMENT PRESENTED BY RIGHT HON. MR. MEIGHEN
Subtopic:   SOME REDUCTIONS IN CANADIAN TARIFF RATES SINCE THE WAR COMPARED WITH INCREASES WHICH OTHER COUNTRIES HAVE MADE ON THE
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CON

Arthur Meighen (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MEIGHEN:

I think so, and the investigator says so. Of that I do not think there is a doubt, but I am not able to see how it throws very much sunlight-

Topic:   SUPPLY-TARIFF REVISION MOTION IN AMENDMENT PRESENTED BY RIGHT HON. MR. MEIGHEN
Subtopic:   SOME REDUCTIONS IN CANADIAN TARIFF RATES SINCE THE WAR COMPARED WITH INCREASES WHICH OTHER COUNTRIES HAVE MADE ON THE
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PRO

Robert Forke

Progressive

Mr. FORKE:

They did not leave Canada

because things were not good in Canada. They left this country because they never intended to stay.

Topic:   SUPPLY-TARIFF REVISION MOTION IN AMENDMENT PRESENTED BY RIGHT HON. MR. MEIGHEN
Subtopic:   SOME REDUCTIONS IN CANADIAN TARIFF RATES SINCE THE WAR COMPARED WITH INCREASES WHICH OTHER COUNTRIES HAVE MADE ON THE
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CON

Arthur Meighen (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MEIGHEN:

Why did they never intend to stay?

Topic:   SUPPLY-TARIFF REVISION MOTION IN AMENDMENT PRESENTED BY RIGHT HON. MR. MEIGHEN
Subtopic:   SOME REDUCTIONS IN CANADIAN TARIFF RATES SINCE THE WAR COMPARED WITH INCREASES WHICH OTHER COUNTRIES HAVE MADE ON THE
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PRO

Robert Forke

Progressive

Mr. FORKE:

Well, I suppose-

Topic:   SUPPLY-TARIFF REVISION MOTION IN AMENDMENT PRESENTED BY RIGHT HON. MR. MEIGHEN
Subtopic:   SOME REDUCTIONS IN CANADIAN TARIFF RATES SINCE THE WAR COMPARED WITH INCREASES WHICH OTHER COUNTRIES HAVE MADE ON THE
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June 2, 1925