May 6, 1925


Gross Operating Expenses Canadian National Railways (Inc. G.T.R. in Can.) $ 66.326,773 44 $ 72,075,700 29 Canadian Northern Railway System 59,012,363 64 62,810,576 31Canadian Government Railways 41,858,398 43 44,962,554 84Grand Trunk Pacific Railway 22,262,868 39 23,087,827 40Canadian National Railways Lines in Canada $ 189,460,403 90 $ 202,936,658 84 Net Revenue or Deficit from Railway Operations Canadian National Railways (Inc. G.T.R. in Canada) $ 14,075,381 01 $ 17,673,704 68 Canadian Northern Railway System 911,980 67 g,593,804 49Canadian Government Railways 1,348,227 29 162,778 18Grand Trunk Pacific Railway 2,747,638 60 S 076!678 39Canadian National Railways Lines in Canada $ 11,764,089 23 $ 11,850,548 62 Tax Accruals, Uncollectible Revenues and Miscellaneous Operations Canadian National Railways (Inc. G.T.R. in Canada) $ Canadian Northern Railway System Canadian Government Railways Grand Trunk Pacific Railway * 1,686,130 15 $ 1,083,511 57 140,744 59 560,778 33 1,337,608 37 988,414 70 59,186 12 510,284 23 Canadian National Railways Lines in Canada $ 3,471,164 64 $ 2,895,493 42 Total Operating Income or Deficit Canadian National Railways (Inc. G.T.R. in Canada) $ 12,389,250 86 $ 16,336 096 31 Canadian Northern Railway System 1,996,492 14 3,582,219 19Canadian Government Railways 1,207,482 70 211,959 30Grand Trunk Pacific Railway 3,308,316 83 3,586,862 62Canadian National Railways Lines in Canada $ 8,292,924 59 $ 8,955,055 20 Non-Operating Income or Charges Net Canadian National Railways (Inc. G.T.R. in Canada) $ 5,310,520 02 $ Canadian Northern Railway System 1,545,671 30 Canadian Government Railways ' 103' 135 54 Grand Trunk Pacific Railway 2,338) 804 13 Canadian National Railways Lines in Canada $ 9,298,130 99 $ 2,857,915 34 1,844,648 29 3,983 96 1,651.459 64 6,350,039 31 Total Income or Deficit before Fixed Charges Canadian National Railways (Inc. G.T.R. in Canada) $ 17,699,770 88 $ 19,194,011 65 Canadian Northern Railway System 449,820 84 1,737.670 90Canadian Government Railways 1,310,618 24 215,943 26Grand Trunk Pacific Railway 969,512 70 1 935 402 98Canadian National Railways Lines in Canada $ 17,591,055 58 $ 15,305,094 51 £Mr. Graham.] C.NJt.-Minister's Statement Statement No. 2-Concluded. Fixed Charges Canadian National Railways (Inc. G.T.R. in Canada):- Interest due the Public Interest due the Government Canadian Northern Railway System:- Interest due the Public Interest due the Government Grand Trunk Pacific Railway:- Interest due the Public Interest due the Government.... Interest on Receivers' Certificates Canadian National Railways Lines in Canada $ 17,841,521 04 $ 14,179,129 266.673,459 11 5,999,898 75$ 24,514,980 15 $ 20,179,028 01.$ 15.188,695 13 $ 15,517,659 5819,528,454 19 18.701,675 52$ 34,717,149 32 $ 34,219,335 10$ 4.428,957 08 % 4,428,957 082,203,724 37 2,823,801 422,865,405 33 2,632,567 98$ 9,498.086 78 % 9,885,326 4868,730,216 25 $ 64,283,689 59 Total Deficit Canadian National Railways (Inc. G.T.R. in Canada) Canadian Northern Railway System Canadian Government Railways Grand Trunk Pacific Railway 6,815.*09 27 S 35,166,970 16 1,310,618 24 10,1,67,599 1,8 985,016 36 35,956,906 00 315,943 26 11.820,729 46 Canadian National Railways Lines in Canada


$ 51,139,160 67 $ 48,978,595 08 COMMONS


C.N.R.-Minister's Statement Statement No. 3 CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS Lines in the United States Income Account Yeabs Ending December 31st, 1924 and 1923 Gross Operating Revenue Grand Trunk Lines in New England. Grand Trunk Western Lines Duluth, Winnipeg & Pacific Railway $ 2,595,230 08 29,591,984 53 2,176,474 82 $ 3,515,000 00 32,471,522 74 2,361,757 41 Canadian National Railways in U.S, 34,363,689 42 $ 38,348,280 15 Gross Operating Expenses Grand Trunk Lines in New England Grand Trunk Western Lines Duluth, Winnipeg & Pacific Railway Canadian National Railways in U.S 3,077,805 13 $ 4,006,702 84 23,881,316 76 23,679,714 70 1,924,405 28 2,081,762 15 28,883,527 17 $ 29,768,179 69 Net Revenue or Deficit from Railway Operations Grand Trunk Lines in New England. Grand Trunk Western Lines Duluth, Winnipeg & Pacific Railway 483,575 05 $ 5,710,667 77 252,069 53 Canadian National Railways in U.S, 3 5,480,162 25 S 491,703 84 8,791,808 04 279,995 26 8,580,100 46 Tax Accruals, Uncollectible Revenues and Miscellaneous Operations Grand Trunk Lines in New England. Grand Rrunk Western Lines Duluth, Winnipeg & Pacific Railway 3 215,088 62 1,215,177 96 107,803 24



Canadian National Railways in U.S, $ 1,538,069 82 $ 196,809 00 946,068 69 119,039 16 1,261,916 85 Total Operating Income or Deficit Grand Trunk Lines in New England c Grand Trunk Western Lines Duluth, Winnipeg & Pacific Railway 697,663 67 $ 495,489 81 144,266 29 Canadian National Railways in U.S 5 688,511 84 7,845,739 35 160,956 10 3,942,09243 $ 7,318,18361 Non-Operating Income or Charges Net Grand Tiunk Lines in New England Grand Trunk Western Lines Duluth, Winnipeg & Pacific Railway Canadian National Railways in U.S. $ 1,344,895 65 $ 1,874,456 345,594,937 06 7,174,471 6879,013 62 73,701 14$ 6,760,830 09 S 9,131,639 11 Total Income or Deficit before fixed Charges Grand Trunk Lines in New England « Grand Trunk Western Lines Duluth, Winnipeg & Pacific Railway " " " "' Canadian National Railway in U.S $ 1,943,559 S3 1,099,448 35 223,279 91 8,818,737 66 $ 3,563,968 18 671,267 72 88,254 96 $ 1,803,445 50



C.N.R.-Minister's Statement Statement No. 3-Concluded. Fixed Charges Grand Trunk Lines in New England:- Interest due the Public $ Interest due the Government Grand Trunk Western Lines:- Interest due the Public Interest due the Government Duluth, Winnipeg & Pacific:- Interest due the Public Interest due the Government 1924 1923 $ - 622,330 89 635,114 64280,200 00 280,519 72 Canadian National Railways in U.S, 902,530 89 $ 915,634 36 Total Deficit Grand Trunk Lines in New England $ 1,942,559 S2 Grand Trunk Western Lines 1,721,779 14 Duluth, Winnipeg & Pacific Railway 56,920 09 $ 2,562,968 18 36,153 08 192,264 76 Canadian National Railways in U.S, 3,721,258 55 $ 2,719,079 86 Might I be allowed to point out here, Mr. Speaker, that some confusion has arisen as between the interest on the debt and the accumulation of overhead. Both local papers are very friendly to the Canadian National system, and to government ownership, and they give the management a fair show. But the Citizen in the article I am about to quote makes a mistake concerning the interest due the public. In a recent editorial the Citizen says: The people of Canada have to contribute $54,860,419 this year to the private holders of railway bonds, in addition to the whole of the profit that the railwaj earned. The deficit -was $54,860,419, but in that amount was included $31,271,043 owed to the government.


CON

Arthur Meighen (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MEIGHEN:

That is the amount owed to the government, but if you add the amount owed to the public you get away over the $54,000,000.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   $ 51,139,160 67 $ 48,978,595 08 COMMONS
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LIB

George Perry Graham (Minister of Railways and Canals)

Liberal

Mr. GRAHAM:

I explained that it came

altogether to $69,000,000.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   $ 51,139,160 67 $ 48,978,595 08 COMMONS
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CON

Arthur Meighen (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MEIGHEN:

Yes.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   $ 51,139,160 67 $ 48,978,595 08 COMMONS
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LIB

George Perry Graham (Minister of Railways and Canals)

Liberal

Mr. GRAHAM:

I am trying to point out the mistake made here. In the Dominion government accounts will be found the entire statement of the amount due both. The situation is this, that instead of $54,000,000 owed to the public in overhead, the amount was $38,361,704. Towards this interest charge the railway provided $12,235,071 from operating revenues. But it supplies more. There is a credit balance of $2,537,310.90 on non-operating account, that is, rentals and various things of

that nature. As a matter of fact, the amount of interest owed to the public being $38,361,704, is reduced by $14,772,327 available from the revenues of the Canadian National itself. The balance, $23,589,377, represents the sum the Canadian National Railway was required to find to complete its interest payments to the public.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   $ 51,139,160 67 $ 48,978,595 08 COMMONS
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CON

Robert James Manion

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MANTON:

Would the minister repeat the two figures as to the interest owing by the railway to the government and to the public?

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   $ 51,139,160 67 $ 48,978,595 08 COMMONS
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LIB

George Perry Graham (Minister of Railways and Canals)

Liberal

Mr. GRAHAM:

The interest owed to the government is $31,271,043, and to the public $38,361,704. Perhaps I am getting on dangerous ground in dealing with this interest, because I am neither an accountant nor a railway man, and I do not pretend to be an expert on figures at all. But, to put it bluntly, one of the difficulties under which we labour is that we are compelled to pay compound interest. I have had several arguments as to the soundness of this, but I will try to explain my position. This one year we have a deficit altogether of interest. We borrow money to pay the principal, including that interest, and we pay interest on the money we borrow. Consequently we are paying interest on the interest of our new borrowings. That is one of the difficulties under which we labour, and I want hon. gentlemen to remember that never was any railway company in the world asked to face such a condition as the Canadian National Railways have been asked to face.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   $ 51,139,160 67 $ 48,978,595 08 COMMONS
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PRO

Milton Neil Campbell

Progressive

Mr. CAMPBELL:

Does the minister not think that the partial remedy would be to write down the capitalization?

C.N.R.-Ministers Statement

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   $ 51,139,160 67 $ 48,978,595 08 COMMONS
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LIB

George Perry Graham (Minister of Railways and Canals)

Liberal

Mr. GRAHAM:

Oh, I am coming to that. Now, it will be clear to every person, I think, that the very large amounts we have expended year by year were necessary in order to bring this property up to a standard where it might be self-supporting, but the time has. arrived when we ought to reduce this capital expenditure as far as possible. It has been reduced year by year. During the four years previous to 1923-24 the average yearly capital expenditure, on investment account, was about $54,000,000. Last year this was reduced to $30,000,000 odd. This year I think I am safe in telling the House that the company is prepared to endeavour to get along with a capital expenditure of $18,900,000. So that we are reducing our capital expenditure to a great extent. It may be asked, why have capital expenditure at all. I reply that so long as you have a railway, you will have capital expenditure. On this system there are millions and millions of dollars worth of trestles that will go to pieces if they are not filled and gradually replaced with permanent structures. All this means capital expenditure, and such expenditure will be required every year, but to reduce it to the minimum ought I think to be the endeavour of the Canadian National Railways and of the Parliament of Canada.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   $ 51,139,160 67 $ 48,978,595 08 COMMONS
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CON

Arthur Meighen (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MEIGHEN:

I am not clear on the last figures, the only thing I think I am not clear on. The minister says that last year some $30,000,000 odd was added to capital expenditure. Last year, according to the minister's return and the railway return, about $118,000,000 was added to the National Railways' debt, of which $54,000,000 would be deficit from both sources, which would leave about $64,000,000 in addition. Now, how could there be only $30,000,000 added to the debt when there was that spread of $64,000,000 between the addition to the capital and the deficits?

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   $ 51,139,160 67 $ 48,978,595 08 COMMONS
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LIB

George Perry Graham (Minister of Railways and Canals)

Liberal

Mr. GRAHAM:

It is a question of bookkeeping. As a matter of fact, these figures are given me to-day as the actual expenditures on capital account last year, not on operation.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   $ 51,139,160 67 $ 48,978,595 08 COMMONS
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CON

Arthur Meighen (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MEIGHEN:

What could the balance of $64,000,000 have been?

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   $ 51,139,160 67 $ 48,978,595 08 COMMONS
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LIB

George Perry Graham (Minister of Railways and Canals)

Liberal

Mr. GRAHAM:

I might explain it this way, the additional capital is not all capital expenditure.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   $ 51,139,160 67 $ 48,978,595 08 COMMONS
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CON

Arthur Meighen (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MEIGHEN:

What is it?

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   $ 51,139,160 67 $ 48,978,595 08 COMMONS
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LIB

George Perry Graham (Minister of Railways and Canals)

Liberal

Mr. GRAHAM:

The deficit is added to the capital.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   $ 51,139,160 67 $ 48,978,595 08 COMMONS
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CON

Arthur Meighen (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MEIGHEN:

I know that, but what about the $118,000,000?

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   $ 51,139,160 67 $ 48,978,595 08 COMMONS
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May 6, 1925