April 16, 1925

AUSTRALIAN TREATY


On the Orders of the Day:


CON

Robert King Anderson

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. R. K. ANDERSON (Halton):

Is there any truth in the report that the treaty between Canada and Australia has been ratified by the Australian government?

Topic:   AUSTRALIAN TREATY
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LIB

William Lyon Mackenzie King (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council; Secretary of State for External Affairs)

Liberal

Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister):

As I understand the socalled treaty between Australia and Canada, there was an understanding reached that the tariff in Australia would be changed in certain particulars and that the tariff in Canada would also be changed in some particulars. I believe the Australian government have taken action in the matter of altering their tariff. We are still negotiating with Australia with respect to such changes as are to be made in the Canadian tariff. Until we have completed these negotiations, it cannot be said that the matter has been finally determined.

Topic:   AUSTRALIAN TREATY
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THE BUDGET

CONTINUATION OF DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE ACTING MINISTER OF FINANCE.


The House resumed from Wednesday, April 15, consideration of the motion of Hon. J. A. Robb, (Acting Minister of Finance) that Mr. Speaker do now leave the chair for the House to go into committee of Ways and Means, and the proposed amendment thereto of Sir Henry Drayton.


CON

Joseph Henry Harris

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. J. H. HARRIS (East York):

Mr. Speaker, the facts which I gave to the House in my address and the country regarding the policies that are being pursued throughout the whole world have shown to me very clearly that this one country stands alone, a law unto itself, with regard to what policy it should pursue. Like the proverbial Irishman, we are people who find ourselves alone out of step and tell the rest of the civilized world that they are the people who are out of step rather than we.

But industry, facts, figures, dollars, cents, commodities and all those features which go to make up ,our present civilization are, as I said before, not the most important features. The most important feature is the generation that is going to succeed this one. I have, in front of me in that connection, to emphasize by another means the points that I have already made. The report of the Department of Labour. What does the department say with regard to vocational instruction which is being given to the youth of Canada to-day? We find that vocational instruction affords opportunities to the following groups:

Young folks and adults who have left school too early and who find that they need more education to succeed in their occupations.

Persons who are ambitious for promotions in their vocations and who find it necessary to become adept in the more difficult processes of their trades, or to become acquainted with the increasingly important volume of technical knowledge related to their trades. Effort must be made to keep pace with the developments of industry. In spite of the tendency towards large volume methods of production, the place of skilled and informed workmen is still secure.

In order to give the people this vocational instruction so that they can take their place in the industries of Canada, we find that not only the cost of vocational education to the people of Canada is of a tremendous magnitude and increasing by leaps and bounds, but the number of people who are attending our technical and vocational schools is growing at a very fast pace as the following table will show:

Attendance in Vocational Schools of Ontario

1920-21 1921-22 1922-23 1923-24Number of full-time teachers .. .. 191 212 288.0 379Number of part-time teachers 60 49.0 82Number of full-time pupils on roll .. .. 2.600 5,344 6,958.0 9,153Average attendance of full-time pupils .. .. 2,123 4,260 5.454.3 Number of part-time pupils on roll .... 907 574 988.0 1,319Aggregate student-hours of part-time pupils .. .. 40.997 37,776 60,972.5 176.673Number of special pupils on roll .. .. 1,019 1,604 1,456.0 2,347Aggregate student-hours of special pupils .. .. 223,570 351,214 247,439.5 314,427

The Budget-Mr. Harris

You will note from this that the aggregate student-hours have been increased over four times in three years. In a like manner, the number of pupils on the roll have increased.

This vocational education of the youth of Canada is costing us considerable sums of

money, which everyone in public life is very glad to vote from year to year. The expenditure for vocational training by municipalities is growing at a tremendous rate, as is shown by the latest summary on expenditures as given by Department of Labour report at page 104:

Summary of Expenditures by Municipalities

1919 1920 1921 1922Total expenditures

$659,072 82 $1,347,903 04 $1,585,086 36 $1,871,614 21Legislative grants

140,294 14 511,021 04 670,758 56 638,217 28

This expenditure is an index of the amount of time, effort and money which is being placed at the disposal of the young people of Canada, to train them in the vocation of the industrial life of the country. The passing of estimates in this connection by public men of all stripes is an endorsation of the policy that it is the intention of all parties in Canada to see that we build up, along with other activities, an industrial life in the manufacturing of our raw materials into finished products, in order that we may have a balanced Canadian life. I emphasize this again because, across from my door in my constituency of East York, there is a million-dollar institution known as the Riverdale Technical School, which was opened in September 1923. With regard to this school the report of the Department of Labour states:

The new Riverdale Branch Technical School, Toronto, opened its doors for the first time in September, 1923. The opportunities for vocational education here offered, with adequate accommodation and equipment, received a most satisfactory response. The number of pupils enrolled during the year was 626 in the day school and 1,890 in the evening school. Any anticipation that the opening of the Riverdale branch would reduce the total enrolment in the Central Technical School was not realized. The enrolment in the Central school remained at approximately the same figures as last year.

The total number of pupils enrolled in the three vocational schools of Toronto-the Central Technical School, the Riverdale Branch Technical School, and the High School of Commence-for the autumn term of 1923 was 4,755 day pupils and 10,074 evening pupils. I

I graduated from a technical school not many years ago and I knew practically every graduate in the Toronto technical school at that time. They could be counted on your fingers then, whereas to-day there are 'fifteen thousand students in and around the city of Toronto who are being educated to take their place in industry. Now, in view of the facts which I submitted to this honourable assembly yesterday afternoon, I say that in the policy which this government is at present persisting in we are not putting into practice our ideas as to what should be done to educate

the youth of the country. Every party, Liberal, Progressive or Conservative, will readily pass estimates for educational purposes. Let us then be honest with ourselves; if we are going to educate the youth of the country to take their place in Canadian industry, we should see to it that industry is maintained in the country in order that when these students graduate from the technical schools they may be able to obtain employment and so remain at home. Around the comer from where I live there are three or four different families, members of which have graduated from this same technical school since 1923. Where are they to-day? I wonder whether the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) saw any of them when he was down south before the Easter recess. That is where they are. Honestly, it breaks my heart to see the 'best of our youth going over to the United States!

Topic:   THE BUDGET
Subtopic:   CONTINUATION OF DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE ACTING MINISTER OF FINANCE.
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?

Some hon. MEMBERS:

Oh, oh.

Topic:   THE BUDGET
Subtopic:   CONTINUATION OF DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE ACTING MINISTER OF FINANCE.
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CON

Joseph Henry Harris

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. HARRIS:

This may be my last chance to make a budget speech on behalf of my constituency of East York, and I take the opportunity of expressing the hope that the government will appeal to the country and get a mandate from the people, or let someone else who has got a mandate take charge of affairs. In that riding of 100,000 we are about seventy per cent industrialists; and seventy per cent of that seventy per cent are owners of their own homes; they own their own humble little cottages ranging in value anywhere from $3,000 to $5,000, $6,000 or $7,000. I wish hon. members would try to form some idea of the amount of money that is involved in any one particular riding such as this, not only in the capital of one industry but also in the capital that is invested in the homes of the employees. If hon. gentlemen would take those facts into consideration they would see what even one industry means to any particular community. It is therefore a matter of great magnitude to the people of a manufacturing centre to see their industries are maintained unimpaired, and it can easily be imagined what concern it must occasion these people when they see one manufacturing industry after another close down.

Every day when in Toronto I have occasion to pass down Carlaw avenue on which are situated the Jefferson Glass Works, which have been there since 1913. That establishment used to employ anywhere from three hundred to as high at one time as six hundred men who were engaged in the making of glassware of all kinds. That plant to-day is shut down and it will probably never start again; the industry is demoralized, is out of business altogether, and this simply because the products it manufactured now come from Belgium and to a large degree from the United States. The tariff has been the means of shutting down this particular plant and it means a loss of $500,000 in wages to numbers of people in my constituency. I think just now of one case of hardship that exists not very far from where I live. An employee of Jefferson's with an invalid wife and one daughter Who earns $10 a week has been out of work since July last, having been able to obtain only about two weeks' employment in the interval. At my home on Saturday night he said to me, "What can I do, Mr. Harris? I missed the last payment on my house and the next payment falls due on April 15; if I miss that one I am going to lose the home which I have been trying to pay for during the last five or six years." This man could not buy a home earlier in life, having reared a large family

of nine children whom he tried to give a fair education. And as I have said, his wife is an invalid. The man is discouraged, he does not know what to do, and he cannot find any other vocation suitable to his abilities in Toronto. He is waiting patiently for another general election in the hope that confidence will be restored in the people of the Dominion. I hesitate, Mr. Speaker, to bring these stories to the attention of the House, because, as the hon. member for West Kootenay (Mr. Humphrey) said, they are liable to shake confidence in the country-if they would shake confidence in the government it would be all right. I repeat, Sir, what I have said a score of times already, I have the utmost confidence in Canada. But with this preface, allow me to state the case of a man who came to my office on "Hogan's alley" this morning. He walked in and said, "You are Mr. Harris?" I answered, "Yes, what can I do for you, my dear fellow?" He replied, "I am one of your constituents and live at 36 Edgewood avenue, not far from where you live. I have walked to Ottawa from tne ony of Toronto." I exclaimed, "What!" He repeated, "I have walked here from the city of Toronto." He turned up the soles of his shoes, and his socks were showing through. I said, "Heavens! man, you must get another pair of boots." We got together enough money in "Hogan's alley" to give him the price of a pair of boots and a good square meal. I gave him the addresses of half a dozen local firms to whom he might apply on the chance of getting a job. He is an exservice man with three children. I took down the particulars which he gave me when he called: He has a boy twelve years old, a girl ten years and another boy five years; he went overseas on January 11, 1916, and was discharged January 26, 1919; previous to going overseas he worked in the purchasing department of the Canada Metal Company; that company is very slack and he was unable to get started there again; his wife got a position here-not in the government-at $12 a week; her father-in-law got this position for her last December, and suggested that if things were so dull in Toronto her husband might come here and try to find something to do; rather than borrow the train fare the man walked here. This afternoon while we are sitting in this chamber he is out in West Ottawa calling on different manufacturing institutions in the hope of getting something to do to support his three children. He told me that he made application to the Soldiers'

Aid hostel in Toronto to take his children in until he could find something to do for their support. They replied, "We cannot take in the children temporarily, but if you will turn them over to us permanently we will take them and farm them out to somebody else." Rather than do that he has held on to them and they are at present in a friend's home in Toronto. That man has been walking the streets since last October trying to get work, and except for a few days' snow shovelling he has been unable to get anything to do.

Now, I want to tell my farmer friends something. What benefit to you are all these "industrialists," if you want to call them that? I rather think they are of some benefit to you! The voters' list for East York contains some 47,000 names, it is a pretty big riding, and those voters with their families number about 100,000 people. I have made a rough estimate of what these people consume, and with permission of the House I wiii place the particuiars on Hansard. This is the statement:

Consumption of farm products in Bast York

Commodity

Cereals, flour and breadstuffs.

Meats of all kinds

Butter and cheese

Eggs

Milk

Potato and other vegetables.

Other farm produce

Canadian fruits

Quantity Value

20,000,000 lbs. $1,200,000

8,000,000 lbs. 1.920,000

3,400,000 lbs. 1,360,000

1,360,000 doz. 680,000

5,000,000 qts. 550,000

5,000,000 bus. 450,000

200,000

40,000

There you have about six and a half million dollars' worth of farm products. Is not that money of some use to the farmers of the county of York?-or even to our western farmers? I say it is, and I say further that industry should be maintained so that we will have diversified employment for the youth of this country as fast as they are able to take up homes and consume your products.

In my riding, Sir, is a very large township which is producing farm products, and the population of that -township is somewhere around 13,000. I want to say one or two words on their behalf, because it may be the last opportunity I shall have in this parliament if the government is honest and goes to the country this fall, and inasmuch as East York is not in the new redistribution. In 1924 we imported vegetables in the following quantities:

Potatoes

24,867,896 lbs.Onions

393,578 lbs.Cabbage

273,933 lbs.Tomatoes

313,591 bus.

The Budget-Mr. Harris

And then again, why should it be necessary to import canned vegetables such as bdans, corn and tomatoes to the quantity of 9,270,176 pounds, worth $965,449? If my constituents in East York could get a little of that business added on to what they have already they would be prosperous. Let us face the situation and protect our market gardeners by curtailing as much as possible importations from other countries. In like maner we find large quantities of fresh and prepared fruits being imported which we might just as well produce ourselves. I have prepared a statement of these importations, and with the permission of the House I will place it on Hansard:

Imports of fruits, 1924

Apples

195,693 bbls. $ 878,415Strawberries

5,014,267 lbs. 740,699Plums

140,208 bus. 374,250Pears

17,804,789 lbs. 782,464Peaches

13,405,896 lbs. 510,710Grapes

11,202,740 lbs. 874,941Cherries

625,313 lbs. 105,978

Add to these the tremendous importation of prepared and dried fruits which run into about 20,000,000 pounds per year, and it will be readily seen that any move towards preserving the Oanadi'an -market for Canadian farm products is of the utmost importance to our people.

The main argument which I am sure every member has in -his mind in this connection is, that due to our position being a little farther north we find our market for these commodities supplied by the products of the United States before our domestic products are ready for the market. Let us therefore face the issue fairly, and not penalize the Canadian producer, because he happens to be in a climate which matures his crop a little later than -his United States competitor, by allowing the goods of that competitor to come into this country and take the market away from him. Give him sufficient protection for all the goods which he can produce so that he will have the Canadian market to himself.

Regarding the railway problem, there are several other features, Mr. Speaker, which have to do with conditions in Canada at the present time. I had the honour, in -my humble way, to bring these facts out before the National Railway and Shipping committee last session. I feel the time has come when we should no longer have Europe covered by soliciting freight agents on behalf of the Canadian National Railways, gathering freight, consisting largely of merchandise, to ship to Canada. We have our trade commissioners in Europe, why cannot some of these men take care of any work which the -Canadian National Railways may find it necessary to

The Budget-Mr. Harris

Topic:   THE BUDGET
Subtopic:   CONTINUATION OF DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE ACTING MINISTER OF FINANCE.
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?

Some hon. MEMBERS:

Hear, hear.

Topic:   THE BUDGET
Subtopic:   CONTINUATION OF DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE ACTING MINISTER OF FINANCE.
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CON

Joseph Henry Harris

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. HARRIS:

I am glad some hon. members approve of that. A reduction in the indemnity has also been suggested. On this point let me say just a word, to clear my own skirts, as it were. You can take my indemnity right away if you like. I happen to have a position that keeps me going and I would be glad to serve the people of Canada free of indemnity. But on behalf of some of the hon. members who have no other particular vocation I would say, leave the indemnity where it is and give them twice as much to do. Give them a hundred thousand people to look after, which is the number I am

mi

looking after right now in my riding, and reduce the membership of this House by one half and the cost by one-half.

I would suggest also that in revising the rules of the House it should be provided that each hon. member be allowed about twenty pages in Hansard and that every page he uses after the twenty he be obliged to pay for out of his indemnity.

I have started at headquarters to reduce the public expenditure. Let us start next with what some people refer to as a white elephant, the Canadian National Railways- I will not call it that-let us there reduce a few expenditures. In the first place, curtail the expenditure on radio, and eliminate such expenditures as we had within the last year and a half of a quarter of a million dollars on golf courses. As I said before, withdraw our soliciting trade agents from Europe, and if work has to be done on behalf of the Canadian National Railways let it be done by our trade commissioners who are already there; let us not have two organizations throughout Europe. Do everything possible to increase our traffic east and west. Do everything possible to increase the traffip in merchandise and in products that will bear heavy freight charges, and eliminate as much as possible the shipping out of this country of our raw material.

Preserve the Canadian market for Canadian farm products.

Develop Canadian resources and manufacture them into finished products if at all possible; and conserve our hydro-electric power resources for the use of our industries.

Establish preference wherever possible, provided it does not interfere with Canadian workmen.

When it comes to appointing the tariff commission, let me humbly suggest that it be composed of three men, one who has the interests of agriculture at heart, one who has the interests of labour at heart, and one who has the interests of the manufacturing and commercial institutions at heart. Let this body of three get together and work out something for the good of the Canadian people. In other words, take the plank out of the Conservative platform, holus-bolus; do not put little frills here and there, as the government are doing to-day, and attempt to make the people believe that what they are giving them is a little different from what the Conservative party advocates.

With the adoption of a policy of this kind, Mr. Speaker, I feel satisfied that the Canadian people will realize even more than ever that Canada is really worth while.

The Budget-Mr. Harris

Let me express a feeling which I experience as I go from one part of the country to another. I was down in the Maritimes not long ago, and down that way we see a 'lot of people who are known as the McDonalds, the McKinnons, the McLairens, the McLeans, the McCreas and the Camerons, some of whose ancestors I suppose came over on the Hector, some of them no doubt descendants of Wolfe's Highlanders who fought on the plains of Abraham. Very good for their lineage and Where they came from, but let me implore these people in the Maritimes to remember that first and foremost to-day they are Canadians 1

Coming just a little farther west we find in the province of Quebec the Archambaults, the Belands, the Bouchers, the Bourassas, the Denis', the Lauriers, the Marcils, and the Lemieuxs-Frenoh-Canadians they like to call themselves when they are in the province of Quebec, Canadians they were perhaps long before some of the rest of us. But to-day let them forget they are French-Canadians and remember that they too are Canadians!

Going out over the western plains and beyond, we find in British Columbia the descendants of those ex-soldiers of 'the British Empire who settled in the Okanagan valley, those rugged men in the mines that the hon. member for West Kootenay (Mr. Humphrey) was speaking about. Let these people remember that they too are Canadians!

To my friends from the western provinces let me also say: You have not been Canadians as long perhaps as some of the rest of us, but get in line with us as quick as you can. Do not forget that you have not been very long in this country.

Topic:   THE BUDGET
Subtopic:   CONTINUATION OF DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE ACTING MINISTER OF FINANCE.
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?

Some hon. MEMBERS:

Who.

Topic:   THE BUDGET
Subtopic:   CONTINUATION OF DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE ACTING MINISTER OF FINANCE.
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CON

Joseph Henry Harris

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. HARRIS:

I could name them. One

of them is smiling at me mow as I look them over. You have not been very long in this country, and you have done mighty well since you have been here. It is a pretty good country for you, and we welcome you and are glad to have you. But do not try to tell some of the older inhabitants what we ought to do. Get ini line with us and help us to bring this country to the place where she belongs! Line up!

Topic:   THE BUDGET
Subtopic:   CONTINUATION OF DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE ACTING MINISTER OF FINANCE.
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PRO

Robert Forke

Progressive

Mr. FORKE:

May I ask how long the

hon. member has been a Canadian?

Topic:   THE BUDGET
Subtopic:   CONTINUATION OF DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE ACTING MINISTER OF FINANCE.
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CON

Joseph Henry Harris

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. HARRIS:

I do not know anything

different. I was bom within a few yards of where I now live, in the centre of an eighty-six-acre farm, which to-day is peopled within every thirty-foot lot by home-loving people,

with paved streets through the whole of it, I have Stuck right to the place where I was bom, and I hope I shall still remain there. But I know what is running through my hon. friend's mind. He thinks " what were your progenitors?" Like a good many more people in the old province of Ontario, I happen to be a descendant of an Englishman., from Bedfordshire, a man who came over here on a cattle boat and earned his first Canadian dollar right on the same street Where he lives now. He has worked hard and has done reasonably well for a man who never went to school. He raised a family of nine children. I would hesitate to say how many grandchildren he has, but it is quite a number. Not only that, when I think of the rest of his lineage, I recall one brother with ten children near my own riding-that is why I get such a large 'majority. I think of another uncle in Australia, with seventeen children, inhere is only one other member of the family, and he is out west, amid has eleven children. Yes, and when I think of my own immediate family, I can find a lead for me to follow, for the one next to me has seven children, and is still going strong. I have four myself, and I am the youngest man in this house.

Mr. Speaker, when I was interrupted I had said something on behalf of Canada with regard to every province perhaps except that keystone to the whole arch of our Canadian civilization, the province of Ontario-Ontario with the descendants of English, Irish and Scotch stock, with her people who have in their makeup British ideals and traditions- Ontario is ready and always has been ready to march in line with all the other provinces of this Dominion to bring Canada to her destiny. Ontario always has been ready to move forward for the sake of Canada, and if we in Canada can get into our minds that we to-day are a Canadian people, a Canadian race, having in our makeup that ideal which is absolutely necessary, that through the history of civilization for the last eight hundred years or more we have found one dominating factor which has been the greatest agency for good to civilization, and that factor is that the British commonwealth of nations has been able to maintain itself and deal justly with every one she has come in contact with -so long as we remember that we are the Canadian race of people, and if we determine to remain firmly within the ambit of the Britannic commonwealth, realizing that in order to carry forward our ideals, we must maintain our place within the empire, then in my opinion, Mr. Speaker, we shall fulfil our destiny.

The Budget-Mr. Hammell

Topic:   THE BUDGET
Subtopic:   CONTINUATION OF DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE ACTING MINISTER OF FINANCE.
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LIB

William James Hammell

Liberal

Mr. W. J. HAMMELL (Muskoka):

Mr. Speaker, in rising to participate in this debate, my purpose is not to dwell on any particular phase forming the subject matter of the financial statement or of the budget resolutions so ably presented to this chamber by the Acting Minister of Finance (Mr. Robb). I propose to again leave the beaten trail, as I did in similar circumstances last year, and crave the indulgence of hon. members for a short discussion of one of the most important branches of our national trade, and one which, unfortunately, has been far too long neglected. I refer, Mr. Speaker, to that great source of actual and potential revenue, the tourist trade. The purpose of my remarks is primarily to bring to the attention of the government and more particularly to the attention of the hon. Minister of the Interior (Mr. Stewart) the urgent necessity and the beneficent effects to be derived from a government policy which would make for the proper exploitation of one of thp greatest of our natural resources. In fact, the great value of the invisible exports to be credited to our tourist trade can be classed at the head of the list when we consider our national business from the viewpoint of desirability. Yet this important factor has grown in spite of nearly absolute neglect. I propose to show some of the important reasons why it is most desirable that our federal government should take immediate steps to sec in motion the necessary machinery to systematize and develop this great national asset.

On the 7th of May last year, during the budget debate, I endeavoured to show with reliable figures and carefully prepared estimates the undoubted value to the nation of the tourist traffic. I may be permitted to quote one or two passages from those remarks. In giving a comparative table of amounts derived from wealth-producing industries I said, as reported at page 1857 of Hansard for 1924:

Taking only those industries which are absolutely basic we get this amazing comparison. The figures are for the year 1923, and are as follows:

Agriculture and agricultural products.. $407,760,000

Wood and wood products 228,756,200

Tourist travel, estimated 136,000,000

Animals and animal products 135.000,000

Minerals and mineral products 123,142,653

Is it not amazing to find this item of production to which we have paid so little attention with a value higher than that of our animal and animal products or than the wealth produced by our mines?

And again on page 1859 of Hansard, 1924, I read:

Turning for a minute to the automobile traffic over our borders, we find still more amazing results. In the year 1923 the Customs department recorded entries of 1,936,598 cars. A large number of this total of

cars stayed in Canada for a period of twenty-four hours or less; on the other hand, more than 200,000 stayed for a period ranging from two days to one month, and some 3,000 cars stayed from one to six months. Even taking a most conservative estimate of three passengers per car, and an average expenditure of only $20 per car, we obtain a total expenditure from this source alone of $40,000,000. And when we consider the cost of maintenance and upkeep, gasoline, oil, and so forth, for the car and the food and lodgings for the passengers, without even including the large sums spent for souvenirs, entertainments and so forth, we readily realize that this is a most conservative total.

Now, Mr. Speaker, it is pleasant to realize that greater interest in the tourist trade is being taken throughout the country, and since the publicity given to my speech of last session I have received hundreds of letters and newspaper clippings from all parts of Canada. The press have taken up the battle cry and are spreading the good news. Automobile clubs, good roads associations, and many other organizations are lending their efforts to the development of the tourist traffic and interest is constantly increasing. Letters have come to me from all points in Canada and many parts of the United States on this subject. I have here one letter from Halifax and another from Vancouver which I desire to read. The first is from Mr. E. G. Stairs, of Halifax, and reads as follows:

My Dear Sir,-As one who has made a personal study of the tourist trade and its possibilities by my own travels and investigations across Canada from Halifax, my home here, may I ask you for a copy of Hansard with your May 7, tourist speech.

Many thanks,

E. G. Stairs,

Halifax.

The other is from Mr. J. R. Davison, Manager of the Vancouver Publicity Bureau, and reads as follows:

Dear Sir,-In a Toronto paper of last summer I note a report of a speech made by you in the House of Commons last year in regard to the value of the tourist traffic.

This has a very great deal of excellent information in it and all your points are, I think, well taken. Among other things I note that you pointed out that the tourist travel is of value to the farmers. I am afraid as yet many of them do not realize this but it is a fact that the products of the farm form a great part of what tourists buy when with us. To make this point clearer out here we stressed it at our annual meeting in 1923. 1 am sending you a copy of

the menu which will explain itself.

You may be interested in looking over a plan we have suggested for the Dominion government. This has already been endorsed by the chief publicity organizations west of Quebec, and has received very general editorial support also. We are hopeful that the government will follow our suggestion, and put in operation some comprehensive plan for increasing the revenue from this very valuable traffic.

This year has been the most profitable we have ever had, and we believe that a campaign such as we suggest will bring a great deal of business to all parts of the country.

20M

The Budget-Mr. Hammell

I would like to hear from you on receipt of this, and trusting that you may be able again to put forward the need of aggressive action by Ottawa.

Yours very truly,

J. It. Davison.

Now, the menu card enclosed with this letter deserves special commendation. On one side the heading reads: "This is what we eat," and the dinner menu is given. On the other side appear the words. "This is what the tourists eat."

This page is certainly wTorth quoting and here are the figures given:

It is estimated that the tourists visiting British Columbia last year consumed foodstuffs to the following amounts:

Cereals, 1,323 bags or 132,300 pounds; bacon and ham, 394,800 pounds; bread at one pound a loaf,

2.100.000 loaves-2,100,000 pounds; jam, 315,000 pounds; coffee, 78,750 pounds; tea, 78,750 pounds; sugar, 279,300 pounds; butter, 180,000 pounds; vegetables.

2.100.000 pounds; potatoes, 42,000 bags or 4,200,000 pounds; fish, 2,100,000 pounds; flour, 630,000 pounds; salt, 31,500 pounds; fat for cooking, 210,000 pounds. Meat: cattle, 3,500 head; hogs, 8,400; sheep, 25,200. Fruit-420,000 pounds: apples, 21,000 boxes; cream, 73,500 gallons; milk, 262,500 gallons; syrup, 4,200 gallons; eggs, 8,400,000.

In reference to the number of sheep consumed this remark is appended:

Hon. E. D. Barlow said there were 50,000 sheep in British Columbia. Tourists ate over half our flock. He will have to count them again.

And I could keep on quoting for hours along the same lines, showing the great economic value of the tourist traffic. Suffice it to say that we are not in any way depleting our reserves when we deliver our goods through the eyes of our tourist friends. When we feed them our fanners profit; when we transport them our railway and steamship companies benefit; in fact every time a tourist moves some part of our economic structure is called into function, and the collective mass of this travel provides a real impetus to trade generally.

Another very important factor that is too easily forgotten is that tourist travel has a secondary influence, often far-reaching in its benefits. It builds up good-will and understanding and it opens the eyes of the visitor to the possibilities of the country. Many a holiday has culminated in an investment or in permanent settlement. It is said that the wonderful industrial development of Shawini-gan Falls is traceable to a summer holiday spent in lower Quebec by one of our great capitalists. And if the truth were known it would perhaps be amazing to realize the prominent part played in the development of our country by those who first came here seeking pleasure and rest and who could not fail to realize the immense possibilities of our vast

Dominion with its great wealth of natural resources.

That Canada has the required scenic beauties to attract and please the tourists is beyond discussion. There is not a single province that does not possess scenic marvels and points of beauty such as the tourist craves. Right at the door of this capital city lies th wonderful valley of the Gatineau capable of attracting and sustaining the interest of thousands and thousands of tourists. We have from east to west a chain of holiday paradises which are veritable fairylands for the tourists. The Bras d'Or lakes, the Garden of the Gulf, the Land of Evangeline, the magnificent Laureatides, the far-famed Murray bay, the Thousand Islands, the National parks, all are assets beyond value, ready to be exploited for the national benefit. I need no excuse to advertise the beauties of my own district of Muskoka; its myriads of lakes, streams and waterfalls, its countless attractive islands, its beautiful and ever-charming scenery, its healthful and invigorating climate, are yearly the pleasure grounds of increasing thousands. Here, if anywhere, the value of the tourist business is realized and every effort is courageously being made for its development. All in our district take a personal interest and have at heart the conservation of the scenic wonders of this fairlyland on the Georgian bay, and we feel, that the efforts we are making will result in benefits that will be nationally felt. The development has been marked in recent years and the number of visitors is continually increasing. Not only this, but scores and scores are added annually to the number who have already become permanently settled summer residents in the various localities.

The investment in property beautification and conservation has already reached a very large sum and costly additions are made every year. I again refer to my remarks of last year, at page 1858 of Hansard, to show what the tourist traffic means in this locality alone. I said last year:

Taking as a survey, that each of the 155 places referred to, with their accommodation for 10,000 guests, only filled their rooms five times each during the entire season, we have a total of 50,000 guests, which at an average expenditure of only $100 each would mean a total expenditure of $5,000,000. From ' a very conservative estimate of the value of the investment in that region we find that in cottages, resorts and launches, the total investment in the three sections of Muskoka, Lake of Bays, the Georgian bay, and Muskoka lakes, is well in excess of $20,000,000. And the investment is rapidly increasing from year to year.

On the Muskoka lakes alone we find this remarkable summary of investment, and my authority is

The Budget-Mr. Hammell

no less a person than the manager of the Muskoka Lakes Navigation Company:

Summer

cottages

Lake Joseph 175

Lake Rosseau 230

Lake Muskoka 490

Total 895

At an estimated average value of only $5,000 this alone represents an investment of $4,500,000.

Resort

cottages

Lake Joseph 12

Lake Rosseau 32

Lake Muskoka 26

Total 70

The estimated total investment of these resorts is conservatively placed at $2,000,000. There are besides a fleet of 22 steamers valued at $367,000 and 390 gasoline launches estimated to be worth $1,000,000. The total investment represented is $7,867,000. In this district alone the numbers of visitors during 1923 is placed at over 30,000, which at the average expenditure of only $100 each would mean a total of $3,000,000.

To handle this traffic, the help engaged on steamers, in the resort houses and in the cottages would represent

3,000 at an average of $7,500 per day for wages alone. The average daily population would be about 7,000 visitors and 3,000 emploj'ees, a continuous population of 10,000 per day during the summer months. So that, at an average of $1 per day per person, you would have a total of $10,000 per day for food alone. One could go on endlessly quoting statistics of the importance. from the tourist standpoint, of this locality; and what applies in one part of our country would be more or less general to all those wonderful sections that our country possesses.

That the estimates and' statistics just referred to are the most conservative can be better realized from the following passages which I will read from a letter addressed to me a few days ago by Mr. W. J. Moore, general manager of the Huntsville, Lake of Bays and Lake Simcoe Navigation Company Limited. Mr. Moore says, in part:

The owners of the different hotels and resorts in Lake of Bays district catering to the tourist traffic, must have an investment of from one to one and a quarter million dollars in buildings, furnishings, etc. You will understand that it is difficult to give accurate figures of investment in hotel and resort properties, in the absence of figures from the owners, which are difficult to obtain.

My estimate is that at least 10,000 people, including summer cottagers, hotel and boarding house guests, and motorists visited the Lake of Bays territory in the season of 1924. Within such territory there is at least 350 summer cottages, 200 gasoline and small steam launches, also hotel and boarding house accommodation for summer guests to the number of about 2,800. Each year is showing a decided increase in the number of vacationists from the United States.

Concerning tourist traffic during summer season to this section of Ontario and Muskoka, I should certainly like to have been in a position to give you something definite as to the number who visited this territory in the season of 1924, but regret that I can only form an approximate idea, because of the very large number who travel by motor car. A large percentage of the

latter traffic do not even patronize the hotels and resorts or boarding houses, but prefer to pitch their tents on camping grounds and then attend to their own cooking, etc. The season 1924 showed a decidedly large increase in the travel by motor car, to Huntsville and points beyond here.

To appreciate properly the remarks which I have just quoted from Mr. Moore's letter, it is necessary to keep in mind that the data which he gives apply only to the Lake of Bays district, which is by far the smallest of the three main sections of Muskoka. The Muskoka lakes and Georgian bay sections are not only greater in extent, but the development there has made greater strides.

Perhaps I may be accused of partiality to Muskoka. In explanation let me say that being in closer touch I have been enabled to obtain more detailed information from my own district. However, the general information which I have and the mass of statistical data in my possession enable me to say that what is true of Muskoka is no less true of scores of other districts. We are truly the inhabitants of a real everyday wonderland, and the apathy which we have shown by our inertia in the development of this vast possible trade is far from creditable to our spirit of advance. That this condition should so long have existed is very difficult of explanation, more so when one considers that in no less than forty different constituencies the problem awaits development for the pleasure of the tourists and to the great benefit of Canada generally.

I now desire to read a few passages from newspaper editorials, and other writings, to show the wakening of interest which is taking place and the demands from the press for the development of this very important natural resource. In these passages hon. members will also note the large value placed on the tourist traffic by independent observers. First I have a quotation from Mr. Frank Waterhouse, President of the Seattle Chamber of Commerce, which shows the tremendous benefits derived from advertisment. Mr. Waterhouse says in the Victoria Times of October 31, 1923:

Three years ago Tacoma's tourist population was 100,000. The expenditure of $65,000 in advocating this traffic brought the total of transient visitors to

350,000 in .1922 and to 500,000 in 1923.

From the Natural Resources Bulletin of the Department of the Interior, I find this passage, which I also read reprinted in an editorial of the Toronto Gldbe under date of December 20, 1924. The paragraph reads:

There is at least one direction in which Canada appears to enjoy a golden opportunity-the attraction of profitable tourist traffic from abroad. Already the Dominion's income annually from such business

The Budget-Mr. Hammell

runs into a large item, but there is every sign that we have merely scratched its revenue possibilities.

Under the heading "The value of the Tourist Trade" the London. Free Press says-August 29, 1923:

However, there is another aspect of the tourist trade which is even more vital and more important. This is the fact that thousands of Americans from the interior states to whom Canada is a foreign nation and who imagine it is largely trackless forest peopled by bears, moose, Indians and gay voyageurs are having their eyes opened. The constant streams of Americans to Canada will do more than any treaties or acts of congress or parliament to make for good-will between the two countries.

I find the following appreciation, well merited indeed, in the British Columbian of New Westminster, August 13:

In contrast to the failure of the British Columbia government to estimate the wealth that will flow to the province by the capitalizing of its scenery, is the work of the Dominion Parks Service in developing great national park areas, opening them to tourists, and making known their scenic attractiveness throughout the continent. The Dominion, in other words, went into the business of selling scenery for the benefit of all of Canada, and while the commercial side is not alone the mainspring of national park development, hundreds of thousands of dollars have been caused to flow through Canadian channels and especially British Columbia channels of trade by the National Park development.

The following paragraph from the Victoria Times has its own significance:

One of the advantages of the tourist traffic is that while the province of British Columbia has $90,000,000 worth of lumber less than in 1921 it still has the same scenic attractions it had in 1921, although $20,000,000 has been paid for enjoying these by visitors from every part of the world and the province has not been depleted.

The figures given are for the year 1921. A more recent survey of the value of the tourist traffic in British Columbia placed the revenues derived at over $60,000,000 for the year 1924. And let me again say that this large sum was reaped without sacrificing a single stick of timber.

The Financial Post, after completing a survey and review of the tourist traffic, has this to say:

There is perhaps no more profitable industry in Canada than the tourist industry. Like any other industry it shows returns for good sound business backing. It pays for investment in good roads, it pays dividends on capital invested in hotels which give satisfactory service, and it pays in -profits to dealers and to merchants, who sell wanted goods at fair prices. And over all, like any other well conducted business, it shows satisfactory returns for money well expended in advertising when the governments, the hotel-keepers and the merchants are prepared to live up to the advertising and send back to their homes satisfied tourists who will multiply the benefits of the benefits of the original expenditure.

The Vancouver Sun adds its approval in the following words-June 19, 1924:

[Mr. Hammell.l

From motor traffic alone on a conservative basis the city of Vancouver benefited to the extent of $12,160,000. When it is remembered that an equal number of tourists came by rail and water, and that according to calculations of the companies which brought them here they spent as great a sum, it means that virtually 25 millions was reaped.

Is this not a business worthy of the greatest encouragement, one that with practical neglect brings in a single year business to the value of twenty-five millions of dollars to a single city? The Border Cities Star published on January 12, 1925, an editorial dealing with the tourist traffic under the very well chosen heading of "Tell the World." They reprinted this editorial and gave it very wide circulation. The heading of the reprint is worthy of note; it says:

By way of explanation:

The attached editorial appeared in the Border Cities Star, Windsor, Ont., on January 12, 1925. It is sent to you in the hope of stimulating a move that is admittedly of great importance to Canada. Bringing the Dominion and its advantages to the notice of other peoples, and particularly in the United States, through the medium of the radio, advertisements in foreign newspapers and magazines, etc., as well as individual effort by Canadians in general, should mean much to our country.

The Border Cities Star.

The editorial itself starts as follows:

As The Star pointed out in these columns a few days ago, one of the most important sources of revenue upon which Canada can draw is that of the tourist industry. As noted at that time, an unofficial estimate places the return from this agency last year at approximately $150,000,000, or $25,000,000 more than American investors are said to reap annually from their holdings in this country. Nothing then could be more obvious than the desirability of building up and adding to the size of this extremely valuable avenue of income.

And among other suggestions, all very good indeed, I find in the last paragraph this very good idea for the use of the radio:

The further suggestion has been made that the radio offers one of the most advantageous means of attracting tourists and immigrants. A great government broadcasting station could reach every corner of America. High class musical programmes interspersed with attractive national salemanship in the form of lectures, talks and invitations would undoubtedly bring results. The " stunt " would be more or less original and undoubtedly would attract great attention across the line. " Canadian Nights " on the radio would be looked forward to in millions of American homes and no one would be more interested than the several million former Canadians now residing all the way from Maine to California. For them these " Canadian Nights " would constitute a breath from home and in more than one instance might be the means of bringing repatriation. The Canadian National Railways is doing some excellent broadcasting work, Why not build up this idea and cash in on it?

In a lengthy editorial, condemning the inactivity of the federal government in this field, the Winnipeg Free Press of January 12, 1924, has these two telling paragraphs:

One of the worst cultivated natural resources of this country is its tourist industry. The number who annu'

The Budget-Mr. Hammett

ally tour part of the land is wildly enumerated in millions, and their aggregated expenditures within the country are supposed to run into hundreds of millions of dollars. Neither estimate can be verified without more specific information, which will not be available till Canada has, like New Zealand a government tourist bureau.

After a general review of the situation and after pointing out what is being done in New Zealand, France, Italy and Switzerland, and after making a number of suggestions, the Winnipeg Free Press editorial referred- to ends with this paragraph:

With infinitely more to offer, and with a tremendously rich and willing source from which to draw, Canada, governmentally, ignores its tourist harvest.

It will be seen that interest has become aroused in this new industrial field throughout the confines of our Dominion. In choosing a few quotations from newspaper editorials it has been impossible to give fair play as the time available precludes the possibility of doing justice to the mass of excellent editorial references made on the tourist traffic, its benefits and the methods suggested for its development.

From a business viewpoint one might quote the following as the principal reasons for the development and marketing of our scenic resources:

1. The financial benefit to farmers by the requirement of foodstuffs for the tourists.

2. The impetus to trade, hotels, resorts and business generally through the necessary catering for this large transient population.

3. The large volume of increased business for our various transportation companies.

What can be sounder economically than the development of a natural resource which increases in value by its marketing and in no way suffers the depletion of its original wealth? W'e empty our mines of their valuable deposits and then hunt for new ground to despoil. The exploitation of our forests has gone on at such a pace that our remaining reserves are yearly becoming more remote. Our commercial fisheries have required stringent control to prevent their disappearance. In a word, is it not true that, perhaps with the exception of agriculture, in every line of industry we destroy to produce? It is not so with our scenic reserves; their development means their conservation, their beautification and their amelioration. The returns which they provide never deplete the shelves of our reserves and we can sell indefinitely without ever replenishing our stock in trade.

The parity of our dollar is attributable to a very large degree, if not entirely, to the revenues derived from our tourist traffic. Hon.

members may ask how. The explanation is that we pay with one hand dividends and interest on stock and bond holdings to foreign investors, and we balance our ledger by receiving with the other their contribution in payment of our scenic beauties and amusement facilities.

At a time when we require additional business to provide additional employment we cannot pass up the development of this so desirable business. I am firmly convinced that we can no longer delay the exploitation of this national asset and would humbly suggest that the best means to attain success should follow along these lines:

1. The establishment of a separate government branch specially organized for the development of the tourist traffic, and

2. The expenditure of required moneys to properly expand and cultivate the tourist traffic.

The branch which I suggest should have full powers to co-operate with all other government departments and be prepared to collect and systematize reliable statistics for advertisement and other purposes. It should also, among other things:

(a) Co-operate with all existing tourist bureaus and similar organizations with a view to welding the whole into a formidable advertising and co-operative agency, eliminating duplication of effort, providing required assistance, etc;

(b) Publish timely and well directed advertisements, together with stories, articles and pictures to make our scenic and natural beauties better known;

(c) Undertake the preparation, publication and distribution of pamphlets and other literature for the information of intending tourists;

(d) Organize and maintain an up-to-date, accurate and adequate information bureau for the benefit of all intending tourists;

(e) Work for the betterment of hotel accommodation, scenic roads, camping sites and generally for the provision of all possible facilities for the tourists.

In addition to the work I have just briefly outlined, the government should endeavour by conference and inquiry to bring about an absolute uniformity in all the laws of the different provinces in so far as they affect the tourist. I am sure that the co-operation of the provinces would be willingly forthcoming. Particular attention should be given to motor car regulations, fish and game permits and such general laws and regulations as are likely to meet the tourist in the various

2098 [DOT] COMMONS

The Budget-Mr. Hammell

provinces. Customs regulations also should be made as easy and elastic as possible with a view to preventing delays and displeasure. In this connection the utmost care should be taken in the selection of customs officers, so that whilst performing their duties they can also very greatly facilitate and expedite the transaction of needed customs business by the tourist.

I cannot close my remarks, Mr. Speaker, without saying a word of appreciation of the yeoman sendee rendered to the tourist industry by both the Canadian National Parks branch and the Natural Resources branch of the Department of the Interior. The publicity carried on has been most timely and most instructive and has served to waken the dormant spirit in a number of our people. Let us hope that they will not only carry on but also increase their sphere of action.

I hope I have not bored horn members and I trust the policy which I advocate will find favour in every comer of this chamber. I cannot think of a single interest which would not be represented in the benefits to be derived from the tourist traffic. We have at our door one hundred and ten millions of people comprising the richest nation in the world, a nation that loves travel and pleasures. Why should we remain inactive when reasonable effort on our part would attract them in scores of thousands? The question of the tourist, industry is non-controversial and is of national importance. The farmer, the merchant, the manufacturer-all are interested in its development. Hundreds of reasons can be advanced in support of its exploitation, and I have yet to find a single argument against it. I have devoted a great deal of time, more so in recent years, to the study of this vast national resource, and I have consistently advocated the urgent need for federal action.

In closing, Mr. Speaker, may I say that I know of no better way of developing this country and of increasing our national prosperity than by taking advantage of this golden opportunity of capitalizing our natural scenic beauties and recreational facilities and selling them to the many millions of our American friends to the south of us, who are continually hunting new grounds for their enjoyment.

Topic:   THE BUDGET
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CON

William Anderson Black

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. WILLIAM BLACK (South Huron):

Mr. Speaker, in my few criticisms of the budget I intend to be very brief. I am inclined to think that in this House there is too much criticism of a destructive kind and not enough constructive. Sometimes I fear that members have lost the great visions of

our statesmen of the past, the faith that our forefathers had fifty years ago in the destiny of C'anada, when I hear certain hon. gentlemen in one breath disparaging their country and in the next breath wondering what is going to happen. The great problems that we have to face to-day are debt, taxation, unemployment, railways, immigration, and probably labour. I feel that we in this corner of the House are in a very happy position in that regard. Speaking for myself, I have supported the government in every measure they have brought down that I thought was in the interests of the Dominion, and when my judgment told me otherwise I voted against the government.

We all realize the tremendous national debt, that we have to carry to-day, a debt of two and a half billion dollars, which almost staggers the people. But, Mr. Speaker, when we read in the press of certain politicians all over the country saying, as the leader of the opposition (Mr. Meighen) said at Stratford last October:

Working men banished-homes boarded up-factories closed-stagnation in business-despair in the hearts of artisans-these are the fruits of the present government-the tariff had closed two thousand factories and had driven 300,000 Canadians across the line.

When we read such doleful statements, we wonder when hon. gentlemen to our right tell us that the reduction in the tariff last year did not reduce the price of farm implements. H that be the case, I should like to ask them, what was all the hulabaloo about from them, or from the manufacturers themselves? Why, Mr. Speaker, hon. members to our right say in one breath that the country is going to pieces on account of the reduction in the tariff, and in the next breath that the farmers will get no benefit on account of that reduction. I may say that at one time I was a free trader. In the late eighties and early nineties I was as strong a free trader as there was in the land. But things have changed in the last forty years, and to-day, although I am a very low tariff man, I do not think I could at this time support free trade.

The hon. member for Fort William and Rainy River (Mr. Manion) has been telling us about the hard times that prevail. Now it seems to me that instead of calling the country down we should do something to build it up. I had to examine the Parliamentary

Guide to see when the hon. member for Fort William and Rainy River came to this country, and I found that he was bom here in the early eighties. He would be a young man in the nineties, and if he had lived and worked on a farm at that time as I did, he would have little to say about hard times to

The Budget-Mr. Black {Huron)

day. I heard the hon. member for DufTerin (Mr. Woods) speak about selling pork and fat cattle at $3.50 or $3.60 a hundred. I well remember those days when times were so hard that one scarcely knew where the next dollar was coming from. But conditions are difficult enough to-day on the farms. I come from one of the best counties in Ontario, where last year the harvest was the best we had had in fifty years, probably the best we ever had. But with the high taxes, with heavy overhead expenses and with everything we have to buy commanding top prices, even one good crop will not set the average farmer on his feet. I do think, however, that we are having better times now than we had in the late eighties or early nineties.

In 1911 the farmers of this country had the greatest opportunity that ever presented itself to them when the reciprocity pact was thrown into the political pot. But the pot boiled over and burned sixty-six per cent of the people of this country. And who was to blame? I say it was this ignoramus bunch of eighteen in Toronto-"the noble eighteen" as some people called them-they are the men who are largely to blame for Canada's position to-day. They spread over the country cartoons playing upon race and religion to such an extent that it was a shame and disgrace to this fair Canada of ours.

Hon. members to our right talk about stagnation of business and indulge in other kinds of political propaganda. But I ask them, why have three hundred thousand of our people crossed the border? Why are factories closed, if any are closed? Why is the labourer out of work? Why are the boys leaving the farms? Why have we, in this the most glorious country under the sun, such a tremendous debt? Perhaps I should not go back to the time of the Union government, but I do submit that, in the first place, daylight saving was the greatest curse this country ever saw; the resolution that was put through the House on that subject did more harm and made more lazy men than any other enactment that has ever been put on the statute book. The high financing of the war period was another curse to this country. While the young men of the land were called to the colours, our statesmen heaped one victory loan upon another and saddled the country with a staggering debt. Why did they not tax the men who stayed at home? In 1917 a man came to me and wanted me to go out collecting subscriptions for victory bonds. I refused point blank, and was asked the reason why. I said that if the finance minister of the day did

not raise part of the money as he went along instead of heaping one loan upon another, somebody else would have to get the subscriptions. Not only that; look at the amount of money that was raised at that time in tax-free bonds. If I had my way I would call in every dollar of those tax-free bonds to-morrow. Why did they not tax those firms that piled up fortunes while the men at the front were shedding their life blood; at a time, in fact, when we were taxing the men on service to the extent of one hundred per cent?

I have a criticism to offer against the present government for not tackling the civil service problem as I think they should have done. I am sure that if they took the proper steps in this matter they would be backed up to the hilt by the people. If the Civil Service Commission are not carrying out their duty, I would dismiss them. If the fault in any case is with the deputy and not with the commission, then I would dismiss the deputy. Think of the army of men and women in the civil service, nearly thirty-eight thousand, between twelve and thirteen thousand of them in the city of Ottawa, according to the figures for 1922. I think their numbers ought to be cut in two.

One hon. member stated this afternoon that he was in favour of there being fewer members in this House, and I support him in that view. I myself last year was in favour of cutting the number of members down by at least one-third so that we should have not more than one hundred and sixty members after the next election. I would also cut the number of senators down to the extent of two-thirds, if they cannot be cut out altogether-either one or the other. I do not see any use in increasing the number of members in this House. If I might make a suggestion, outside of the leaders of the government and their first two or three lieutenants, thirty minutes is all I would allow any member on the floor of the House.

Topic:   THE BUDGET
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LIB

François Jean Pelletier

Liberal

Mr. PELLETIER:

Make it twenty minutes.

Topic:   THE BUDGET
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CON

William Anderson Black

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BLACK (Huron):

I would be satisfied to make it twenty. I think in that way we could save this country hundreds of thousands of dollars.

With regard to immigration, I think this is probably one of the biggest problems this government has to deal with to-day. I am not one of those who believes that we should not have immigration. I hope, Mr. Speaker, that immigrants will flow into this country by the thousands and tens of thousands every year. If we had twenty-five million people in Canada to-day, which we should have had

The Budget-Mr. Black (Huron)

if this land had been governed aright, a great many of our present day problems would be solved. The problem of our debt, for instance, would be solved without any trouble, also the National Railways debt. In my own province we could settle thousands of families. There are farms there where houses and bams have been built in years gone by which would cost more to build to-day than you could buy the house, barn and land for; there are thousands of such cases. On some of these farms there is no person living except the father and the mother. The others have left in years gone by for the west, or have gone into something else, and the old people are left there alone. Therefore, I would favour a very strong immigration policy indeed, only let us be careful in picking the immigrants that come to this country.

I am sorry the Acting Minister of Finance (Mr. Robb) is not in his seat, for I have a few suggestions to make to him. I have been an advocate of an export duty on wheat. That is the first thing I would suggest to the minister. I do not know what our western members will think of it, but I do not think an export duty would reduce the price of wheat in Canada one cent. I would put an export duty on our wheat going to the United States of 42 cents a -bushel. I advocated that a year ago, as soon as the duty was put on across the line. Some people say they will hit us back in some other line if we do that. Well, that is -their business. If they choose to do that, all right; I have nothing against it. But I think such a tax would be the greatest boon to this country at the -present time. We farmers in Ontario could double our output in five years if we could get as cheap bran and shorts 'as we got fifteen years ago. Then they cost ten and twelve dollars a -ton, while the average for the past five years has been twenty dollars and twenty-five. I am not speaking of last fall, when I paid thirty dollars for bran, -and I do not think you could buy it an}' cheaper to-day. The great need of Ontario to-day is cheap feed.

I would1 -also put an excise tax on automobiles, or raise the luxury tax by five or ten per cent on all cars costing over $800 or $1,000. I think the man who can buy an automobile that is worth $3,000 could easily pay double or treble the tax he is now paying.

I would also put an excise tax of ten per cent on leather, or else reduce the present tariff -by that amount.

I would put a three per cent tax on all watered stock in this country. I have not

[Mr. William Black.)

been able to get any exact figures as to the -amount of watered stock, but I will guarantee that such a tax would bring us in the ordinary revenue required in this country.

Topic:   THE BUDGET
Subtopic:   CONTINUATION OF DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE ACTING MINISTER OF FINANCE.
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April 16, 1925