April 2, 1925

PRO

John Warwick King

Progressive

Mr. KING (Kootenay):

As I stated a few moments ago, the Canadian National is being carried on and operated as a distinct company, under directors and a board of management. Are you going to place it in a different position from competing lines? The manager says we should not give this information. If

we did we would open the doors to our competitors and it would be unfair to us. That statement has been made by the Minister of Railways (Mr. Graham) and I think it is probably an answer to my hon. friend's suggestion. I think the government would' have to be guided by the advice of the president or management of that railway in regard to information of that character.

Before passing on to another criticism, I desire to say that I have had some little experience in these matters. I have listened to many budget speakers, not in this parliament but in provincial legislatures, where political warfare is waged very much as it is in this parliament, and on each and every occasion when the government has a surplus I have found that it has been a bitter pill to the opposition; they do not like it. But being a bitter pill to the opposition does not prevent it being soothing and gratifying to the taxpayers of the country. The surplus of last year, the reduction in taxation, i.e., the reduction in the customs duties and in the sales tax of some twenty-four or twenty-five million dollars were well received by the taxpayers of the country, and although the surplus is not as large this year, it is still gratifying to the people of Canada to know that, after the final closing of accounts for the year of revenues received and the expenditures made by the government, there was a balance in favour of the country and that there was a substantial surplus.

My hon. friends have taken exception to the manner in which the government have handled the Roumanian and Grecian loans. It was rather surprising when one considers the history of these loans. The loans were made by our hon. friends opposite when the Canadian credit was almost at the breaking point, when the Canadian dollar was worth from eighty to ninety cents, and during my hon. friends' term of office it was a frozen loan, there was no interest paid and it accumulated, but in 1922 arrangements were made, through the high commissioner in negotiation with the Roumanian and Grecian governments, whereby the interest that was due was consolidated in the form of a bond and became part of the joint debt of those countries to Canada. The Acting Minister of Finance (Mr. Robb) very properly stated the other day just what took place. We had a loan made by the late government on which there was no interest being paid. The interest had accumulated to some $4,000,000. A bond was taken from these countries for the payment of this interest and the whole loan consolidated. In the arrangement new

1801 COMMONS

The Budget-Mr. King (Kootenay)

securities were given to the Dominion for the total indebtedness, and they were further secured by specific charges on certain revenues of these countries. In the case of Roumania the security of the new bond is a fixed charge upon the export duties charged on wheat and other export products. In the case of Greece their obligations are a charge upon the revenue of the International Financial Commission appointed to administer specific revenues of the Greek government, for the purpose of meeting the charges in connection with their external indebtedness. These governments since 1922, have been paying their interest charges regularly and promptly, and in the case of Greece part of the principal. You have this position to-day: what was a frozen Joan formerly is now a loan on which not only the interest is being paid but the principal is being liquidated.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   THE BUDGET
Sub-subtopic:   CONTINUANCE OF DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE ACTING MINISTER OF FINANCE
Permalink
UFO

Robert Henry Halbert

United Farmers of Ontario

Mr. HALBERT:

How was the loan made? Was it in cash or in goods?

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   THE BUDGET
Sub-subtopic:   CONTINUANCE OF DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE ACTING MINISTER OF FINANCE
Permalink
PRO

John Warwick King

Progressive

Mr. KING (Kootenay):

I believe it was

given in cash or credit.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   THE BUDGET
Sub-subtopic:   CONTINUANCE OF DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE ACTING MINISTER OF FINANCE
Permalink
?

An hon. MEMBER:

Goods.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   THE BUDGET
Sub-subtopic:   CONTINUANCE OF DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE ACTING MINISTER OF FINANCE
Permalink
PRO

John Warwick King

Progressive

Mr. KING (Kootenay):

I am told it was in goods.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   THE BUDGET
Sub-subtopic:   CONTINUANCE OF DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE ACTING MINISTER OF FINANCE
Permalink
UFO

Robert Henry Halbert

United Farmers of Ontario

Mr. HALBERT:

Then by what firms

were the goods supplied?

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   THE BUDGET
Sub-subtopic:   CONTINUANCE OF DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE ACTING MINISTER OF FINANCE
Permalink
PRO

John Warwick King

Progressive

Mr. KING (Kootenay):

I am not familiar with the early stages of the loan. There has been a discussion in regard to it, and probably the older members of the House will know.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   THE BUDGET
Sub-subtopic:   CONTINUANCE OF DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE ACTING MINISTER OF FINANCE
Permalink
?

An hon. MEMBER:

Paint.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   THE BUDGET
Sub-subtopic:   CONTINUANCE OF DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE ACTING MINISTER OF FINANCE
Permalink
?

An hon. MEMBER:

Varnish.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   THE BUDGET
Sub-subtopic:   CONTINUANCE OF DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE ACTING MINISTER OF FINANCE
Permalink
CON

Henry Herbert Stevens

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. STEVENS:

It is an old story.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   THE BUDGET
Sub-subtopic:   CONTINUANCE OF DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE ACTING MINISTER OF FINANCE
Permalink
PRO

John Warwick King

Progressive

Mr. KING (Kootenay):

It is revived this session.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   THE BUDGET
Sub-subtopic:   CONTINUANCE OF DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE ACTING MINISTER OF FINANCE
Permalink
LIB

Joseph Archambault

Liberal

Mr. ARCHAMBALLT:

It is still good

and still has some varnish.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   THE BUDGET
Sub-subtopic:   CONTINUANCE OF DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE ACTING MINISTER OF FINANCE
Permalink
PRO

John Warwick King

Progressive

Mr. KING (Kootenay):

It is surprising,

Mr. Speaker, where party exigencies will force our hon. friends opposite. They have been touring this country and in and out of parliament complaining that the people of Canada are exporting their excess production of raw material. The nation is very much like an individual who, to pay his debts and carry on, must sell in the markets open to him the products of his energy. I cannot think my hon. friends are really serious when they talk as they are talking these days of a tariff wall that would prevent the importation of any manufactured goods into Canada and of an embargo that would prevent the raw

materials of the country going out of Canada. If that is so, and if it should come to pass, then the Lord help the people of Canada. Conditions are bad enough to-day, and they were bad enough in 1914. Conditions were bad enough between 1878 and 1896. But if this policy that is being promoted and being announced by our hon. friends opposite- that is a high protective policy that will not permit importation of manufactured goods into Canada and an embargo on our raw materials-is to be adopted, then I am satisfied there will be no balanced budget, and Canada will not be in a very happy or prosperous condition. There is a lot of hectic talk these days about the export of our raw materials. To-day in every line of our basic industries we are producing more than we can consume. Is that production to cease or to be restricted to our own requirements? Surely not. As regards three of our basic industries, forestry, agriculture and fisheries, under proper scientific handling they can be conserved and be made increasingly valuable. In the case of forestry this is proven in Norway and Sweden, much older countries than ours, which to-day under a proper system of conservation of their forests are exporting their raw products and selling them in the markets of New York and Boston in competition with those of Canada and the United States.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   THE BUDGET
Sub-subtopic:   CONTINUANCE OF DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE ACTING MINISTER OF FINANCE
Permalink
CON

Charles Herbert Dickie

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. DICKIE:

What raw forest products

are coming from Sweden and Norway to the markets of New York and Boston? I mean absolutely raw products, such as saw logs?

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   THE BUDGET
Sub-subtopic:   CONTINUANCE OF DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE ACTING MINISTER OF FINANCE
Permalink
PRO

John Warwick King

Progressive

Mr. KING (Kootenay):

There are degrees of raw products. Sawn lumber dressed on one side is comparatively raw in its manufacture, and that is entering the markets of New York and Boston to-day from Norway and Sweden in competition with the Canadian and United States product.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   THE BUDGET
Sub-subtopic:   CONTINUANCE OF DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE ACTING MINISTER OF FINANCE
Permalink
CON

Charles Herbert Dickie

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. DICKIE:

We have no objection to

sawn lumber.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   THE BUDGET
Sub-subtopic:   CONTINUANCE OF DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE ACTING MINISTER OF FINANCE
Permalink
PRO

John Warwick King

Progressive

Mr. KING (Kootenay):

Then it is a

matter of degree. My hon. friend says he has no objection to sawn lumber coming in. But he does object to pulpwood that has been rossed.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   THE BUDGET
Sub-subtopic:   CONTINUANCE OF DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE ACTING MINISTER OF FINANCE
Permalink
CON

Charles Herbert Dickie

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. DICKIE:

That is a small item.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   THE BUDGET
Sub-subtopic:   CONTINUANCE OF DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE ACTING MINISTER OF FINANCE
Permalink
PRO

John Warwick King

Progressive

Mr. KING (Kootenay):

It is not a small item. The rossing of a cord of pulpwood represents as much in cost and energy as the work on one or two thousand feet of cut timber.

The Budget-Mr. King (Kootenay)

Mr.- DICKIEIf I might interrupt again? Why not carry on the manufacture a little further to the pulp, and so enrich our workmen and everybody else to the extent of 50 per cent? That is where our assets are diminishing.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   THE BUDGET
Sub-subtopic:   CONTINUANCE OF DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE ACTING MINISTER OF FINANCE
Permalink
PRO

John Warwick King

Progressive

Mr. KING (Kootenay):

My hon. friend

has asked me about raw products from Norway and Sweden entering the American markets, and I have given him what I understand to be one of those raw products. But who are our greatest competitors to-day in those markets in regard to newsprint and kraft paper? It is these little countries whose forests have been cut and recut for centuries, but through a proper system of conservation those forests to-day are producing in competition with the forest wealth of this great continent. There is no question that there has been frightful waste and extravagance in the handling of these great natural resources, but the waste and destruction has not been in the marketing of the raw products, it has been incident to the carelessness of our people. Fire has been the chief destructive cause. The homesteader in clearing his land has not taken the care he should have taken. The prospector exploring ore veins has at times found it convenient to remove the timber in order that he might 'better see the character of the country and its geological formation, and he has resorted to fire. But the homesteader and the prospector have not been the worst offenders. We know that railway companies in times past have not properly protected the forest growth adjoining their right of way. The lumberman himself has not always taken proper care to ensure his limit against fire. Many of those who are complaining most bitterly to-day against our raw products being exported are probably more responsible than any others for the terrible destruction of our forest wealth in the past. Fortunately to-day there is a more wholesome regard on the part of the people for our forest wealth; they are beginning to realize what an important part our forests play in the regulation of our rivers and streams, our climate, and so forth.

All our governments to-day, provincial as well as federal, have forestry departments whose staffs are composed of men who have graduated from forestry schools. They are devoting a great deal of time to the conservation and improvement of our timber resources, but they have hadi considerable difficulty in educating the people to the necessity of voting large expenditures for this work. Anyone who is familiar with lumbering operations on the Pacific coast, particularly on Vancouver island, knows that the lumber men in moving tremendous trees through any section of the country take off all the young, small growth with their drag line. This destroyed growth dries out and in a very little time becomes a fire hazard. As my hon. friend from Nanaimo (Mr. Dickie) said last night in his very interesting and instructive address, when this brushwood takes fire it throws out such a tremendous heat that the chances are that the seed bed will be destroyed and there will be no fresh growth of timber for many years to come. I have travelled through the inland portions of northern British Columbia, and have seen evidences of fires which probably occurred 100 to 150 years ago, and only in the last few years has nature begun to reforest. Fire is the greatest evil we have to contend with although it is true that in certain sections of the country trees suffer from other causes. For instance, recently in New Brunswick, there has been widespread destruction through the attacks of the spruce bud worm, whole sections of spruce having died and a few years later they will look as if they had been fireswept. But eventually science will entirely control these insect pests. The only agency, however, to prevent fire is proper regulation of timber operations, adequate protection and careful patrol work during the fire season,-all of which is going to cost money. In addition to taking these measures against fire, some of our provincial governments-most of the timber being under their control-are making surveys of such sectioas as are suitable for reforestation, and we find to-day that large areas are being set aside and protected to allow nature to reforest.

With respect to agriculture, we have only to look at the older countries of Europe to realize that our great competitors in Great Britain are Denmark, Belgium and Holland. We know that under scientific methods the products of our soil can be shipped to their ultimate market in the finished state to compete with those of any other country. This is also true with regard to our fisheries. The fishing industry by scientific treatment can be made ever-producing. I noticed within the last few days that a conference is being held in British Columbia between the United States and Canadian interests in order that a rehabilitation of the salmon fisheries on the Fraser river may take place. In line with that policy this parliament adopted two years ago a treaty with the United States government pertaining to the conservation of the halibut banks on the Pacific coast off Prinee Rupert. I personally am desirous that there

:806 * COMMONS

The Budget-Mr. King (Kootenay)

shall be such a development in Canada as will result in the manufacture in our own country, as far as humanly possible, of our raw material into finished products. But to say that that must be done and that there should also be embargoes to prevent any material from going out in its raw state is absurd; it is a policy that would not be tolerated for a moment by the people of Canada.

We have a different condition in the mining industry. It is true that the ore that is taken out of the ground cannot be replaced by human intelligence or by scientific effort, but surely, having regard to the tremendous wealth we have in these mineral products, the extent of which is practically unknown to the Canadian people to-day and will not be fully known for many years, it is not the time to say to the people of Canada that they shall not ship out of the country the raw material from the mines. It is interesting to view the history of the parties in this regard. I may be mistaken but I have yet to learn of any act on the part of the Conservative party while they were in power, from 1911 to 1921 or in the period preceding, which tended toward the development of refining processes in connection with our ores in Canada. I would ask you, Mr. Speaker, to contrast that policy, or lack of policy, on the part of our hon. friends with the policies enunciated and put into practice by Sir Wilfrid Laurier and his government in the years they were in office. By a system of bounties the iron and steel industries in Canada have been built up. These industries have had their ups and downs, and we know that iron and steel are being made from our ores and that the products of this refinement are being used in the commerce of our country. The bounties as applied to the lead and zinc industry were a greater success. The history of that policy is rather interesting. At a time when the lead and zinc industry in British Columbia was apparently going out of business, the government undertook to set aside a certain sum of money to be used in the form of a bonus to be paid in accordance with the value of the ore refined. Before the period limiting the bonus had expired the stimulation to the industry had been such and the market conditions had been so improved that the price attained by the mineral was in excess of the price on the basis of which the government had agreed to pay the bonus, so that nothing more was required to be done so far as the bonus was concerned. To-day we have the lead and zinc industry well established in western Canada. Canada is making more lead

and more zinc than she requires for her own needs, and is becoming an important factor on the world's market in connection with these products.

The hon. member for Nanaimo (Mr. Dickie) an evening or two ago, as I have stated, gave us a very interesting address on the subject of timber waste. But he hardly arrived at a conclusion. He came pretty nearly up to an embargo, but he went back to the question of waste; the hon. gentleman is too shrewd, too clever a business man to go that far. He said in conclusion that he was not satisfied that an embargo would be the proper thing; he thought perhaps an export duty might be wise. If I followed him correctly, I think that was what he said. Well, I do not take exception to my hon. friend's attitude. I am not sure that we have arrived at the position where we should impose export duties on raw material. The question is a debatable one, especially at this time when Canada's position is such that she must have revenues to meet the interest on her national debt, as well as to reduce the debt itself. There is a field there that might be surveyed by experts, bearing upon the question whether Canada would be entitled to take some revenue from the raw products by way of an export duty. I would be prepared to debate and consider that, but as to an embargo, I would say no.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   THE BUDGET
Sub-subtopic:   CONTINUANCE OF DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE ACTING MINISTER OF FINANCE
Permalink

April 2, 1925