June 10, 1924

PRO

Daniel Webster Warner

Progressive

Mr. WARNER:

Then why is the hon.

gentleman complaining about these estimates not being of any benefit except to the farmer?

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CON

Robert James Manion

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MANION:

I was not complaining at

all. I am simply pointing out that the members from the prairie provinces continually take the attitude that we must not help anything such as this oil industry-an industry in which, by the way, I am not interested one way or the other. But I submit that these agricultural estimates are of direct interest and of direct benefit to the farmer, and they cannot be argued to be anything else. By helping the farmer they help the whole country; I do not dispute that, just as by helping the manufacturer we help the whole country. But that is what the western farmer will not admit. He says: If you help the farmer you help the whole country, but if you help the manufacturer you steal it from us. That is the attitude the western farmer takes. Do not let there be any misunderstanding: I am

not complaining about one dollar of these agricultural estimates, and there never has been any objection to them from this corner of the House; we support them.

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PRO

Daniel Webster Warner

Progressive

Mr. WARNER:

Who is it pays the biggest part of the money that is given to these experimental farms?

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CON

Robert James Manion

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MANION:

I will tell the hon. gentleman who pays the biggest part: It is the

same people who pay the biggest part of the taxes of this country-the industrial centres. Look over the taxes, see who pays them, and you will find that the farmers do not pay them to any great extent; you will find that the manufacturing and industrial centres of this country pay them.

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UFO

Robert Henry Halbert

United Farmers of Ontario

Mr. HALBERT:

And charge it up in the

prices of their implements.

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CON

Robert James Manion

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MANION:

Possibly they get some of it back, and I do not see why they should not. But who pays the income taxes? Ninety-eight per cent of them are paid by the industrial centres of this country.

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PRO

Oliver Robert Gould

Progressive

Mr. GOULD:

Will the hon. member argue that it is because of laxity on the part of officials of the department that the taxes are not paid by the farmers?

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CON

Robert James Manion

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MANION:

I am not charging anything; my hon. friend will not take me away from my point. I was asked by one hon.

Cu items Tariff

member who paid the bounties, and I pointed out that the industrial centres paid them to a large extent.

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PRO

Daniel Webster Warner

Progressive

Mr. WARNER:

I would like to know

where those who pay them get the money to pay them with?

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CON

Robert James Manion

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MANION:

They do not get it from

the farmers. They get some of it from me, for example, and I am not a farmer, neither am I a manufacturer. But I am quite sure that they get more of it from me than they do from some of my hon. friends who talk more about what they do. Now, if I may be permitted to go on-

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?

William James Lewis

Mr. LEWTS:

I would like to point out

that this whole discussion is out of order. We are not dealing with the agricultural estimates.

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CON

Robert James Manion

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MANION:

I always notice that my

hon. friends do not like this discussion about the agricultural estimates. Now, Mr. Speaker, I was not going to read all these items; too much of my time has been taken up already.

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PRO

Harry Leader

Progressive

Mr. LEADER :

If the hon. gentleman will permit me-I do not as a rule interrupt hon. members when they are speaking; this is about the third time I have interrupted anybody. But I wish he would read some of the agricultural items. If he does not, I will read one.

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CON

Robert James Manion

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MANION:

I have the floor just now; my hon. friend may read it after I have finished.

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PRO
CON

Robert James Manion

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MANION:

I will read them all if my

hon. friend wants me to:

Experimental Farms $1,400,000

Entomology 25.000

Administration of the Destructive Insect and Pest Act 310,000

Dairying 230.000

Cold Storage Warehouses 30,000

Fruit 182,000

Health of Animals 2,000,000

(Administration and enforcement of Animal Contagious Diseases Act and Meat and Foods Act).

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PRO

Harry Leader

Progressive

Mr. LEADER:

Is not that last vote of

benefit to the whole country, rather than to the agriculturists alone?

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CON

Robert James Manion

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MANION:

Some of it is of direct

benefit to the population generally, but most of it, I should think, is of direct benefit to the farmer. The next item is Publications, $33,500. These publications deal with agricultural questions. They are not of any special interest to me. and if my hon. friends

do not think they are of any use to them, why not move to wipe out the item? These publications are of no use to the manufacturers, nor to me as an ordinary medical man.

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PRO

Daniel Webster Warner

Progressive

Mr. WARNER:

When you help the farming industry are you not helping the rest of Canada?

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CON

Robert James Manion

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MANION:

That is true, but how

can you help the manufacturing industries in this country without, helping at the same time the rest of Canada? I think that question is just as proper as my hon. friend's. There are farmers in this country beside those in the prairie provinces. There are farmers in Ontario and Quebec, and about 90 per cent of their total products is sold to people dependent upon the manufacturing industries in the two provinces. If you wipe out the tariff altogether, you may temporarily help the prairie provinces, but probably you will ruin permanently the Ontario and the Quebec farmer, and there are as many farmers in those two provinces as there are in the prairie provinces.

Coming back to the question of bounties, I was going on to say when I was interrupted, that generally speaking free-traders look upon bounties as the fairest method of assisting industry. To my mind it is one of the very fairest methods. If you wish to build up an industry, if you give it a bounty you know exactly what it is getting. Questions have been put on the order paper this session with respect to the oil bounties, how much was received in bounties, and what the production was. You can get that information under the bounty system, so if we are going to have any type of production, and my hon. friends apparently agree with me that they are not moving very far this year towards free trade except in the matter of agricultural implements, we might as well have the bounty system.

There are other industries in this country that could be helped to a great extent by bounties, and which have not been helped so far. This year the Ontario government, the good Conservative government which wiped out the Drury crowd, to the great blessing and prosperity of this country, to my mind, have brought in a measure for paying a bounty on iron ore We are importing into Canada to-day iron and its products to the extent of $175,000,000 a year. I for many years advocated in this House, until it became a bit of a joke, that something be done to assist the production of iron ore in Canada. I quit in 1921; that was the last time I spoke on the question. To-day the Conservative

Customs Tariff

party in power in Ontario have passed an act providing a bounty for iron ore production in Canada. We are importing practically 100 per cent of the iron ore being used in Canada. The Ontario government sent a message to this government, asking whether they would go halves in giving this bounty to assist in the production of iron ore in Canada and the use of Canadian iron ore in blast furnaces, but so far as I know they have received no encouragement from this government, and consequently they are to-day going to give an iron ore bounty themselves, I understand, the province bearing the whole cost of the bounty to develop the production of our iron ore.

It is a most important question, Mr. Speaker. Here we have a country with hundreds of millions of tons of iron ore scattered over it from the Atlantic to the Pacific. There are hundreds of millions of tons of iron ore in northern Ontario, British Columbia, some in the Maritime provinces, and some right outside of Ottawa. Within fifty miles of where we are sitting to-day there are large deposits of iron ore, claimed to be of very high quality. This iron ore cannot compete with the iron ore in the United States. No one will dispute that if, by giving a bounty or some other form of assistance, we could develop the production of iron ore in Canada, anld use our own product instead of importing this iron ore from the American shores of lake Superior, it would be a good thing for this country. We have running across northern Ontario three lines of railway, and that is one section of this country that is not getting the traffic it might get; it has not the population. The great proportion of the hundreds of millions of tons of iron ore in Canada, exist in northern Ontario, and the great proportion of the railway lines that need traffic are in northern Ontario. Nearly fifty per cent of the whole traffic in the United States comes from the mines, and in Canada we are importing hundreds of millions of dollars worth of iron ore and iron goods of various kinds.

I have here the monthly bulletin) of the Canadian Institute of Mining and Metallurgy, and in an article the Deputy Minister of Mines, Dr. Camsell, gives import and export figures showing that in iron and iron products we imported in 1923, in round figures, $170,000,000; in non-ferrous metals, $40,000,000, and non-metallic minerals, $171,000,000, making a total of $381,000,000. Surely, the building up of an iron industry would be of the utmost importance to Canada, because the iron and steel industry is one of the basic

elements of commercial prosperity in any country. Before the war, Germany and the United States were rapidly coming to lead the world in the production of iron and steel. England, up to a few years ago, led the world, but Germany caught up, and the United States has now far surpassed her. It would be of vast benefit to Canada to develop this industry, and I think this government has been derelict in its duty in not meeting half way the Ontario government. The reason is, of course, this government was afraid of opposition from my friends to my left, who, at any rate, are consistent and insist on stopping anything in the shape of protection of any kind.

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June 10, 1924