April 1, 1924

CON

Robert James Manion

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MANION:

I wish once again to

emphasize what I started with and what the hon.. member for Vancouver Centre (Mr. Stevens) has supported. The reason I do so is because the more I have listened to the discussion of various members of the House, the more I am convinced, and I believe the more the minister is convinced also, that the fourteen-mile proposition is a good one. If you look at any of the railways of this country, you will find what we have all said again and again exists. We have to-day throughout the country too many parallel lines running side by side. Since I made my remarks a few minutes ago, I have looked at a map of the proposed line, and I find that the fourteen-mile line would bring the Canadian National line down to the Canadian Pacific. The forty-one mile line would bring it down on a bias, so that it would gradually get closer to the Canadian Pacific, and at the end1 of the forty-one miles it would join up with the same American line as that with which the Canadian Pacific joins up. What is the difference between having the 'Canadian National run fourteen miles and then join with the Canadian Pacific, and run forty-one miles and join with an American line, even supposing the hon. member for Vancouver Centre (Mr. Stevens) is wrong and the Boston and Maine railway is not controlled by the Canadian Pacific? I think it would be better to construct the fourteen-

C.N.R. Branch Lines

mile line and connect with the Canadian Pacific. In other words, the memorandum says that we would get running rights over the Canadian Pacific and we would have exactly the same rights. I remember in my own city, the old Grand Trunk Pacific line ran a passenger train into Fort William over the Canadian Pacific. In other words, they had running rights, and there was no more opportunity for them to lose cars with those running rights than if they had their own lines. They ran into the Canadian Pacific station, the same station.

There appears to be a certain amount of false pride that makes whoever is advocating this forty-one mile line advocate it, where a fourteen-mile line would bring about the same results. The minister would be well advised to report progress and to come back to-morrow with a bill, whichever one he wants to bring in. If he gives the question serious thought and does what I think he will do, he will decide that it is in the best interest of the country to bring in a bill for the construction of the fourteen-mile line. Every corporation, every municipality in this country to-day, which finds itself overburdened with capital debt, is cutting down capital expenditure. My own city-and I ask the pardon of the House for mentioning personal things, but I know more about my own city than about others-found a few years ago that its capital debt and taxes were pretty high and that it was spending too much money. It immediately did what I think was the wisest thing in its history. About ten years ago, about the time of the breaking out of the war, it began to cut down capital expenditure, and' it has been cutting out capital expenditure as far as possible with very excellent results. That is what every sane business organization is doing; but we have to-day the Canadian National Railways, which has a bigger deficit than any other corporation in the country, coming forward with a proposal to'build branch lines at an estimated cost of about $30,000,000, which, I think, will cost in the neighbourhood of $60,000,000 before they are completed.

Topic:   CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS
Subtopic:   BILLS PROPOSED TO AUTHORIZE THE CONSTRUCTION OF BRANCH LINES
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LIB

William Richard Motherwell (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. MOTHERWELL:

Make it a hundred

million dollars like last year.

Topic:   CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS
Subtopic:   BILLS PROPOSED TO AUTHORIZE THE CONSTRUCTION OF BRANCH LINES
Permalink
CON

Robert James Manion

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MANION:

If the Minister of Agriculture had the handling of the matter, I am sure he would make it a hundred million dollars, if we are to judge by the past record of his department since he began to handle it. I repeat what I was saying, that the

Canadian National Railways should certainly cut down its capital expenditure, the same as other corporations, municipalities, and business organizations in this country are doing. The minister should, I think, report progress, take back his bill and give it further consideration. I am sure if he does, he will bring in a bill for the construction of the fourteen-mile line, and I would not be surprised, if he gives the matter serious consideration, if he does not bring in a bill at all.

Topic:   CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS
Subtopic:   BILLS PROPOSED TO AUTHORIZE THE CONSTRUCTION OF BRANCH LINES
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PRO

Thomas Henry McConica

Progressive

Mr. McCONICA:

I have listened to this

discussion with a good deal of interest. Needless for me to say, my constituency is not particularly interested, but the proposition, as I understand it, now is: Shall we build forty-one miles or fourteen miles of railway?

Topic:   CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS
Subtopic:   BILLS PROPOSED TO AUTHORIZE THE CONSTRUCTION OF BRANCH LINES
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CON

Robert James Manion

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MANION:

And get the same results.

Topic:   CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS
Subtopic:   BILLS PROPOSED TO AUTHORIZE THE CONSTRUCTION OF BRANCH LINES
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PRO

Thomas Henry McConica

Progressive

Mr. McCONICA:

And get the same results? That is a thing that we cannot determine. What we want is the result. Supposing we pass a bill to build fourteen miles of railway and our Canadian Pacific friends say: "No, gentlemen, we do not want anything to do with you," and they will make no arrangement, what happens? We have nothing. That is the fact of the matter. If we pass this bill for the forty-one miles of railway, then you are in a position to talk to the Canadian Pacific about a running arrangement over their road. If you do not do that, you will get no running arrangement unless they get the long end of the deal. As this matter appears to me, we have 2,600 miles of railway gathering freight throughout all that eastern country, and they can haul it down to within forty-one miles of the place to which it is to be delivered. There they turn it over to another railroad, and that railroad takes it to its destination. Is it good business to control that freight to its destination? It seems to me that it is and that it is a business proposition. It has been said that we do not receive enough information in this House. Is it anybody's hope that we shall be able to come to a conclusion, each one from first-hand knowledge and from what he knows himself? I do not think so. We must take the judgment of the men who have all the facts, and the experience to weigh those facts.

Topic:   CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS
Subtopic:   BILLS PROPOSED TO AUTHORIZE THE CONSTRUCTION OF BRANCH LINES
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CON

Robert James Manion

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MANION:

Did my hon. friend not hear the minister read a memorandum from the officers of the railways in which it is stated that they would get running rights?

Topic:   CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS
Subtopic:   BILLS PROPOSED TO AUTHORIZE THE CONSTRUCTION OF BRANCH LINES
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PRO

Thomas Henry McConica

Progressive

Mr. McCONICA:

They will if they can.

Topic:   CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS
Subtopic:   BILLS PROPOSED TO AUTHORIZE THE CONSTRUCTION OF BRANCH LINES
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CON

Robert James Manion

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MANION:

No; they say that they will.

C.N.R. Branch Lines

Topic:   CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS
Subtopic:   BILLS PROPOSED TO AUTHORIZE THE CONSTRUCTION OF BRANCH LINES
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PRO

Thomas Henry McConica

Progressive

Mr. McCONICA:

Well, they will before they build the 14 miles; I know that. But they cannot know whether they can get a running arrangement until they are in a position to do business. If they are authorized to build the 41 miles I would suggest that they stand a very much better chance of getting an arrangement in connection with the 14 miles. When that is done then they will be in a position to approach the Canadian Pacific Railway on equal terms. Personally, I cannot hope to be able in this House to come to an intelligent conclusion, from firsthand knowledge and from my experience with railway building, as to whether any of these lines should be built or not. We must depend upon those men who have the experience and know the facts. They are the officers of the Canadian National Railways and we all know that they have recommended that the line be built. It seems to me a sensible thing to make the connection between these two points and I certainly think we have spent enough time discussing this proposition. I hope the resolution will carry.

Topic:   CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS
Subtopic:   BILLS PROPOSED TO AUTHORIZE THE CONSTRUCTION OF BRANCH LINES
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CON

Henry Lumley Drayton

Conservative (1867-1942)

Sir HENRY DRAYTON:

Is it the legal opinion of the government that running rights can be obtained for this line through the Board of Railway Commissioners?

Topic:   CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS
Subtopic:   BILLS PROPOSED TO AUTHORIZE THE CONSTRUCTION OF BRANCH LINES
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LIB

George Perry Graham (Minister of Railways and Canals)

Liberal

Mr. GRAHAM:

I do not know that I am in a position to give a legal opinion on the question.

Topic:   CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS
Subtopic:   BILLS PROPOSED TO AUTHORIZE THE CONSTRUCTION OF BRANCH LINES
Permalink
CON

Henry Lumley Drayton

Conservative (1867-1942)

Sir HENRY DRAYTON:

An argument is based upon it.

Topic:   CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS
Subtopic:   BILLS PROPOSED TO AUTHORIZE THE CONSTRUCTION OF BRANCH LINES
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LIB

George Perry Graham (Minister of Railways and Canals)

Liberal

Mr. GRAHAM:

I said, a legal opinion. The Board of Railway Commissioners can give running rights upon terms to be decided by them; but, as has been explained by the hon. member who has taken his seat, if certain conditions are in existence much better terms can be made for running rights between the points under consideration.

Topic:   CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS
Subtopic:   BILLS PROPOSED TO AUTHORIZE THE CONSTRUCTION OF BRANCH LINES
Permalink
CON

Arthur Meighen (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MEIGHEN:

I presume the minister

will admit that in the interval between last session and the present time he has dropped some 200 miles of contemplated railways.

Topic:   CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS
Subtopic:   BILLS PROPOSED TO AUTHORIZE THE CONSTRUCTION OF BRANCH LINES
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LIB

George Perry Graham (Minister of Railways and Canals)

Liberal

Mr. GRAHAM :

There have been some new lines included while some have been dropped. Some of the lines in the West have been dropped for the reason that, the bill having been thrown out, the territory which the projected Canadian National branch lines would have occupied is now otherwise in use. Consequently those particular lines have had to be abandoned.

Topic:   CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS
Subtopic:   BILLS PROPOSED TO AUTHORIZE THE CONSTRUCTION OF BRANCH LINES
Permalink
CON

Arthur Meighen (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MEIGHEN:

Where does that

apply?

Topic:   CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS
Subtopic:   BILLS PROPOSED TO AUTHORIZE THE CONSTRUCTION OF BRANCH LINES
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LIB

George Perry Graham (Minister of Railways and Canals)

Liberal

Mr. GRAHAM:

I cannot recall just

where; there were two or three western lines. I believe there was one route dropped between Kelvington and Tisdale.

Topic:   CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS
Subtopic:   BILLS PROPOSED TO AUTHORIZE THE CONSTRUCTION OF BRANCH LINES
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CON

Arthur Meighen (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MEIGHEN:

What mileage is accounted for by that?

Topic:   CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS
Subtopic:   BILLS PROPOSED TO AUTHORIZE THE CONSTRUCTION OF BRANCH LINES
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LIB

William Richard Motherwell (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. MOTHERWELL:

Sixty-nine.-

Topic:   CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS
Subtopic:   BILLS PROPOSED TO AUTHORIZE THE CONSTRUCTION OF BRANCH LINES
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April 1, 1924