April 1, 1924

LIB

Edward Mortimer Macdonald (Minister of National Defence)

Liberal

Mr. MACDONALD (Pictou):

That is

controlled by the Boston and Maine, and the Boston and Maine is a national enterprise in which the state has a share. All the Canadian Pacific has to do with it is that it runs from Vanceboro to a point at which its own line diverges north.

Topic:   CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS
Subtopic:   BILLS PROPOSED TO AUTHORIZE THE CONSTRUCTION OF BRANCH LINES
Permalink
CON

Henry Herbert Stevens

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. STEVENS:

I understand that. It

amounts to the same thing. They operate in Maine and in the province of New Brunswick. The Canadian Pacific Railway operate their own trains. The traffic is not turned^ over to the American corporation, and the Canadian Pacific control a substantial portion of the stock of that railway, or the bulk of it.

Topic:   CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS
Subtopic:   BILLS PROPOSED TO AUTHORIZE THE CONSTRUCTION OF BRANCH LINES
Permalink
LIB

Edward Mortimer Macdonald (Minister of National Defence)

Liberal

Mr. MACDONALD (Pictou) :

Can the

hon. gentleman give us any evidence of that?

Topic:   CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS
Subtopic:   BILLS PROPOSED TO AUTHORIZE THE CONSTRUCTION OF BRANCH LINES
Permalink
CON

Henry Herbert Stevens

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. STEVENS:

I do not carry it around

in my pocket.

Topic:   CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS
Subtopic:   BILLS PROPOSED TO AUTHORIZE THE CONSTRUCTION OF BRANCH LINES
Permalink
LIB

Edward Mortimer Macdonald (Minister of National Defence)

Liberal

Mr. MACDONALD (Pictou):

There is

no evidence of that.

Topic:   CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS
Subtopic:   BILLS PROPOSED TO AUTHORIZE THE CONSTRUCTION OF BRANCH LINES
Permalink
CON

Henry Herbert Stevens

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. STEVENS:

I contend there is. As a

matter of fact, I think it is shown in the last annual statement of the Canadian Pacific Railway. I do not have it under my hand;

I expect to have it in a very few moments, but the map I am referring to shows quite clearly the Canadian Pacific railway in the state of Maine. It is the main thoroughfare of the Canadian Pacific Railway at that point coming into the province of New Brunswick.

Topic:   CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS
Subtopic:   BILLS PROPOSED TO AUTHORIZE THE CONSTRUCTION OF BRANCH LINES
Permalink
LIB

George Perry Graham (Minister of Railways and Canals)

Liberal

Mr. GRAHAM:

My hon. friend argues

that because the Canadian Pacific Railway is marked on the map to run over the Maine Central, that consequently it controls the Maine Central. Will he say that the fact that the New York car that leaves here on the Canadian National runs over the Boston and Maine for part of the trip to New York constitutes control of the Boston and Maine?

Topic:   CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS
Subtopic:   BILLS PROPOSED TO AUTHORIZE THE CONSTRUCTION OF BRANCH LINES
Permalink
CON

Henry Herbert Stevens

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. STEVENS:

No, I did not say that.

The hon. gentleman is not quoting me correctly at all, but I do say that the Canadian National could deliver their traffic to the Canadian Pacific railway at a point called Harvey, which would require the construction of only 14 miles of railway in New Brunswick instead of 41 miles; in other words, it would save to this country nearly a million and

a half dollars, and would accomplish the same result. If we were preventing the accomplishment of the object of this resolution, my hon. friend the minister might be able to present some argument, but we are not preventing that at all. The only thing we are asking is that the minister and the railway company shall not impose upon the country another duplication of about 30 miles of railway where it is absolutely unnecessary. We are not asking the government to forego this proposition altogether. We are not suggesting that a certain service shall not be rendered, but we do suggest that we shall not waste a million and a half dollars in giving identically the same service as could be provided by the construction of the 14 miles. I do not think there is the slightest question of this. It does not follow that because the part operated by the Canadian Pacific Railway is in the state of Maine and is under an American charter with a different name, that it is not controlled by the Canadian Pacific Radway.

Topic:   CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS
Subtopic:   BILLS PROPOSED TO AUTHORIZE THE CONSTRUCTION OF BRANCH LINES
Permalink
LIB

Edward Mortimer Macdonald (Minister of National Defence)

Liberal

Mr. MACDONALD (Pictou):

Nor does it follow that it is controlled.

Topic:   CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS
Subtopic:   BILLS PROPOSED TO AUTHORIZE THE CONSTRUCTION OF BRANCH LINES
Permalink
CON

Henry Herbert Stevens

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. STEVENS:

As a matter of fact I am informed by the best authority that it is controlled by the Canadian Pacific. I would be justified in asking the hon. member for Pictou (Mr. Macdonald), who is rather crossexamining me on evidence, what evidence he has that it is not controlled.

Topic:   CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS
Subtopic:   BILLS PROPOSED TO AUTHORIZE THE CONSTRUCTION OF BRANCH LINES
Permalink
LIB

Edward Mortimer Macdonald (Minister of National Defence)

Liberal

Mr. MACDONALD (Pictou):

I come from that part of the country, and I have travelled over the railway long before the Canadian Pacific railway ever used to run from Matawamkeag to Megantic. I know from my connection with that part of the country that the Maine Central runs from Vanceboro where it joins the Boston and Maine, and is controlled by the Boston and Maine Railway, and nobody in my part of the country ever suggested, that the Canadian Pacific Railway owned any part of it. [DOT]

Topic:   CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS
Subtopic:   BILLS PROPOSED TO AUTHORIZE THE CONSTRUCTION OF BRANCH LINES
Permalink
CON

Henry Herbert Stevens

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. STEVENS:

Surely the hon. minister does not suggest that that is evidence.

Topic:   CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS
Subtopic:   BILLS PROPOSED TO AUTHORIZE THE CONSTRUCTION OF BRANCH LINES
Permalink
LIB

Edward Mortimer Macdonald (Minister of National Defence)

Liberal

Mr. MACDONALD (Pictou):

It is a fact.

Topic:   CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS
Subtopic:   BILLS PROPOSED TO AUTHORIZE THE CONSTRUCTION OF BRANCH LINES
Permalink
CON

Henry Herbert Stevens

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. STEVENS:

It is not as good evidence as I have in my hand. I produce a map published by the government of which the hon. minister is a member, and I think I have the " edge " on him. As far as reason and logic are concerned, I think my hon. friend is virtually out of court.

Topic:   CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS
Subtopic:   BILLS PROPOSED TO AUTHORIZE THE CONSTRUCTION OF BRANCH LINES
Permalink
LIB

Edward Mortimer Macdonald (Minister of National Defence)

Liberal

Mr. MACDONALD (Pictou):

The hon. member is very adroit.

C.N.R. Branch Lines

Topic:   CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS
Subtopic:   BILLS PROPOSED TO AUTHORIZE THE CONSTRUCTION OF BRANCH LINES
Permalink
CON

Henry Herbert Stevens

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. STEVENS:

The minister cannot escape this fact: That by the construction of 14 miles of railway for $600,000 he can give just as good service, and overcome the present handicap, granting there is a handicap, and accomplish just as much as he will obtain by spending $2,123,000 and building 41 miles of railway. My argument is that if we can save a million here or a million there and give adequate and reasonable service, then by all means we ought to save that million and a quarter.

Let me say, at the outset, to my hon. friends to my left that I have a great deal of sympathy with some of the branch line projects on the prairies. I know that some of those lines will pay. I believe many of those lines are necessary, and I am prepared when we come to them, I will not say to support every one of them, but as we get the proper information and examine < them, to support those which are really essential. I do not think there should be any proposition of bargaining on these railway bills. That is, my hon. friends have no need to fear on our part that a certain line in the prairies will not be supported if they do not support a certain line in another section of the country. Let these lines stand on their own merits and let us examine them on their merits. If there is real merit in them, let us support them. The very thing that killed1 the Branch Lines bill last year, the omnibus bill that was brought in covering all those lines, was the government thinking that by putting into the bill in certain lines that were necessary, that were desirable and certain lines that were perhaps warranted, those lines would carry the heavy load of unwarranted and unnecessary lines in other parts of the country. That is the situation. My desire is that we should examine each one of these resolutions, each one of these bills on its merits. I want to say to the minister that there is no reflection on him if, in the examination of these things, there is a marked difference of opinion about certain portions of some of these lines. He should not take this as a personal affront, as a life-and-death matter for the government, as if the government must go out of business and all that sort of stuff, if we do not pass this resolution. Surely we can come into this House and examine these things on their merits. Let me repeat to the minister my request, because I seem to see in his countenance a little softening. That hard look that was there a few minutes ago is passing away.

I know my hon. friend, who has had a hard day, was almost losing his temper.

Topic:   CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS
Subtopic:   BILLS PROPOSED TO AUTHORIZE THE CONSTRUCTION OF BRANCH LINES
Permalink
LIB

George Perry Graham (Minister of Railways and Canals)

Liberal

Mr. GRAHAM:

The only thing that makes an Irishman get a little cross is for some one to accuse him either of being an informer or of not being frank. My hon. friend accused me of not being frank when I gave him an answer.

Topic:   CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS
Subtopic:   BILLS PROPOSED TO AUTHORIZE THE CONSTRUCTION OF BRANCH LINES
Permalink
CON

Henry Herbert Stevens

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. STEVENS:

I do not think my hon. friend was quite frank with me.

Topic:   CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS
Subtopic:   BILLS PROPOSED TO AUTHORIZE THE CONSTRUCTION OF BRANCH LINES
Permalink
LIB

George Perry Graham (Minister of Railways and Canals)

Liberal

Mr. GRAHAM:

Then he has a right to get his fur up again.

Topic:   CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS
Subtopic:   BILLS PROPOSED TO AUTHORIZE THE CONSTRUCTION OF BRANCH LINES
Permalink
CON

Henry Herbert Stevens

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. STEVENS:

Let me in all seriousness again bring this point to the minister's attention. It does not matter particularly whether the Canadian Pacific actually own that railway or not. The question is that from a point in Maine distant from the boundary, this line is operated by the Canadian Pacific Railway. If we can save $1,500,000 by constructing only the fourteen miles of railway to Harvey instead of the forty-one to Vance-boro, I submit to the committee that we ought to construct only the fourteen miles and save the $1,500,000.

Topic:   CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS
Subtopic:   BILLS PROPOSED TO AUTHORIZE THE CONSTRUCTION OF BRANCH LINES
Permalink

April 1, 1924