June 22, 1923

CON

William Garland McQuarrie

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. W. G. McQUARRIE (New Westminster) :

I desire to ask a question of the

Minister of Justice (Sir Lomer Gouin) in reference to Bill No. 106, which stands in my name on the order paper. This bill is entitled "An Act to Extend the Right of Appeal from Convictions for Indictable Offences." That bill, of course, cannot be reached at this session. I wish to ask the Minister of Justice (Sir Lomer Gouin) if he would consider the advisability of taking over this bill as a government measure for next session. It is a very important measure. It was passed unanimously by the Senate after a full and complete investigation by a special committee, whose report also I believe, was unanimous. I think Canada is the only country in the world where the right of appeal is not given.

Topic:   APPEALS FROM CONVICTIONS
Permalink
LIB

Lomer Gouin (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Liberal

Sir LOMER GOUIN (Minister of Justice):

I cannot make a promise that I will take the bill over as a government measure. I understand this is a very important question, and we are now in communication with the attorneys general of the provinces in regard to it. The provinces are interested because they have to pay for the administration. I am now studying the question. I do not promise that next session I will ask my colleagues to make this a government measure; but it is a very interesting point and it is possible that we shall make it a government measure.

Topic:   APPEALS FROM CONVICTIONS
Permalink

IMPERIAL CONFERENCE AND ECONOMIC CONFERENCE


On the Orders of the Day.


IND

William Charles Good

Independent Progressive

Mr. GOOD:

When will the House have

an opportunity of discussing the agenda of the Imperial Conference and the Economic Conference to be held this fall?

Topic:   IMPERIAL CONFERENCE AND ECONOMIC CONFERENCE
Permalink
LIB

William Lyon Mackenzie King (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council; Secretary of State for External Affairs)

Liberal

Mr. MACKENZIE KING:

I have mentioned, I think, several times, that when the Supplementary Estimates are brought down, they will contain an item to make provision for the Economic Conference and the Imperial Conference, and that will be the appropriate time, I think, for the discussion to take place. I hope the Supplementary Estimates will be brought down possibly by Tuesday or Wednesday of next week. I cannot give my hon. friend a definite assurance, but I will endeavour to see that that item is brought up at an early stage.

Topic:   IMPERIAL CONFERENCE AND ECONOMIC CONFERENCE
Permalink
IND

William Charles Good

Independent Progressive

Mr. GOOD:

Will it be brought up not

earlier than Tuesday?

Dairy Industry Act

Topic:   IMPERIAL CONFERENCE AND ECONOMIC CONFERENCE
Permalink
LIB

William Lyon Mackenzie King (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council; Secretary of State for External Affairs)

Liberal

Mr. MACKENZIE KING:

Yes, I will

promise my hon. friend that it will not be brought up before Tuesday.

Topic:   IMPERIAL CONFERENCE AND ECONOMIC CONFERENCE
Permalink

DAIRY INDUSTRY ACT, 1914. AMENDMENT


Hon. Mr. MOTHERWELL (Minister of Agriculture) moved that the House go into committee to consider the following proposed resolution: Resolved, that it is expedient to amend the Dairy Industry Act, 1914, by providing:- 1. That a minimum standard of fat in butter be established; 2. That the Governor in Council be empowered by proclamation to permit the importation, manufacture and sale of renovated butter in Canada; 3. That the manufacture, importation, selling, offering or having in possession for sale of milk or cream which contains any fat or oil other than that of milk be prohibited; 4. That regulations may be made respecting (a) records being kept by manufacturers and dealers in butter, renovated butter and cheese, and for the examination of such records by inspectors; (b) the importation, manufacture, inspection, marking, advertising and sale of renovated butter; (c) the registration of all cheese factories and creameries in Canada, and the compulsory use of an assigned number on the product of each factory or on the packages containing said product; 5. That penalties for violation of the regulations be increased, and methods established for proving the guilt of persons charged with infractions of the act as amended, and for the procedure to be followed in all such cases. Motion agreed to and the House went into committee, Mr. Gordon in the chair. On clause 2.


CON

Simon Fraser Tolmie

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. TOLMIE:

Can we get an explanation

of this from the minister?

Topic:   DAIRY INDUSTRY ACT, 1914. AMENDMENT
Permalink
LIB

William Richard Motherwell (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. MOTHERWELL:

This whole resolution was associated with the Dairy Industry Act, which was discharged from the Order Paper two or three weeks ago, with one important difference, that difference being in clause 2 which we are now discussing. The reason that I have incorporated this clause in the present resolution and did not have it in the resolution when it was previously before the House, is this. Last year when the discussion was up on the oleomargarine question, I took the ground that, in my opinion, a better solution of the question of a cheap spread for bread was renovated butter and not oleomargarine. Last year the House did not take my statement very seriously, and as the question was not before the House, I suppose they were justified in assuming that attitude. At the same time I gave my assurance that if the oleomargarine resolution met with the same decision last year as it has this year, I would immediately advise my colleagues that in my estimation it would be

a good idea to remove the prohibition on the manufacture of renovated butter. Inasmuch, however, as the vote of the House last year was in favour of continuing the manufacture of oleomargarine, there was no call for such action. This year I had no occasion to make any remarks with regard to the question of oleomargarine, as the matter seemed to be in a fairly good condition, and I was afraid that possibly I might spoil it by saying anything. Nevertheless, had I said anything, I would have re-stated my position as regards renovated butter as a cheap bread spread for the poor man. I feel calleid upon to implement that pledge of last year. I will read from Hansard just one extract indicating what I said, and I will not read any more than is necessary. I said:

I am prepared, if my colleagues will agree with me, to take that prohibition off by legislation this session-

That was last session.

-as a means of giving real relief; as a means of giving butter which is not 2 per cent butter-some of my friends here claim that they have had enough 2 per cent-but 100 per cent butter with 100 per cent food content.

That was ray statement last year and although I did not repeat it in the House for the reasons I have indicated, I have repeated it in letters to various individuals throughout Canada. I stated to these parties that I recognized that there was an argument in favour of some kind of cheap spread for bread for people who could not-or felt that they could not-afford to buy

creamery butter; that inasmuch as oleomargarine was a commodity of which nobody knew the ingredients, it was, in my estimation defective in food properties. As the House has decided to revert to the old order of things by a resolution passed recently, I am here to carry out my statement as regards the manufacture of renovated butter.

As this is a comparatively new question, the people of Canada do not know much about renovated butter. It has been prohibited for twenty years, and because it has been prohibited for so long it is a comparatively new question to possibly ninety-five per cent of the people. What is this new article and what is the history of its prohibition? In order to give an answer to that question, we have in this resolution and in a bill associated with it, merely asked that the Governor in Council be given power by proclamation to provide for the manufacture of this product. It is not proposed to authorize this immediately. A period will elapse, to be determined by the amount of requests for the manufacture of renovated butter. If nobody

Dairy Industry Act

calls for the manufacture of it, if the labour organizations, the women's organizations, the miners' organizations, the lumber organizations, and any others, make no requests, the chances are that no proclamation will be issued, inasmuch as this would indicate that there was no demand.

Why am I bringing in this bill? In the first place, because I want to carry out my statement; and, secondly, because I believe there is room in our domestic economy for such a product as renovated butter. The question is a considerable one that presents many phases, and later on, if the discussion is protracted, I may find it necessary to deal with some of the details. In the meantime my primary object is to meet a demand which I am convinced exists. There has been some criticism with regard to the question of importation. Some critics take the ground that there would be no objection to providing a market for the dairy butter made by the pioneer settler, by putting it into proper shape to be sold before it deteriorated to too great an extent. It sometimes happens that butter shipped to an outside market becomes bad when it is a long time in transit; occasionally it is not shipped in refrigerator cars, and by the time it reaches Minneapolis, say, or New York, it is in a worse condition than renovated butter manufactured and sold on the Canadian market. There is the assurance, ns embodied in the resolution, that the manufacture of renovated butter will be legal only upon the issuance of a proclamation; and personally I would not mind incorporating in the bill a provision that no such proclamation should be issued within a year, or at least until there was an evident demand from those most concerned. I want to assure the committee that I have no desire whatever to thrust anything like this upon the market if there is no demand for it; but there is undoubtedly a certain amount of demand on the part of the wholesale produce dealers who handle our dairy butter. People have repeatedly written to me, particularly from the West, wanting to know, inasmuch as this article is produced by farmers, and was the only kind of butter we had fifty years ago, why it should be banished from the country in summary fashion, having to climb a tariff wall of eight cents a pound to get into the United States. It is further pointed out that the local country stores experience considerable difficulty in finding a market for it. It is urged that provision should be made for the manufacture of it in Canada, and I think it may very reasonably be inferred from all the circumstances that there is at least suffi-

cient demand to warrant the action we propose taking. The night the oleomargarine debate concluded, about ten days ago, some hon. gentlemen asked me why I did not bring down a measure with regard to renovated butter; and one person particularly pointed out that inasmuch as the poor people weie going to be deprived of oleomargarine there was no reason why this other substitute, or rather this form of butter, should not be manufactured. That, Mr. Chairman, is briefly a summary of the situation. I may remark, by the way, that I have referred the matter to my colleagues who have agreed to the proposal, believing it to be a good one.

Topic:   DAIRY INDUSTRY ACT, 1914. AMENDMENT
Permalink
IND

William Charles Good

Independent Progressive

Mr. GOOD:

Will the minister explain to the committee how renovated butter is made? What is the composition of it? Is it defined?

Topic:   DAIRY INDUSTRY ACT, 1914. AMENDMENT
Permalink
LIB

William Richard Motherwell (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. MOTHERWELL:

I have been trying to ascertain the quality of the product during the past five or six years; in fact, before coming here at all I was interested in the subject. The moment that the manufacture of oleomargarine was permitted there immediately arose the question why this product should be banished from the market. I have had some correspondence with American manufacturers in reference to this matter, and one letter that I have received is particularly interesting. I shall not read the whole of the letter because I think it is rather too long to put on Hansard. But it is from ao authority in Chicago, a man who, I may say, is not a manufacturer of renovated butter but a real dairyman whose interests are rather, if anything, opposed to this product. Still inasmuch as renovated butter is a recognized and standard article on the market, being quoted just the same as creamery butter, it is well that there should be no misapprehension regarding its nature and value. Renovated butter is usually quoted about halfway between creamery butter and oleomargarine. About a fortnight ago oleomargarine let us say, stood at 30 cents-I am not giving the exact figures, of course, but the proportions are true-while creamery butter was quoted at 40 cents. Renovated butter then would fetch 4 cents more than oleomargarine and 6 cents less than creamery butter. Sometimes the variation is exactly midway between the two extremes of oleomargarine and creamery butter. The letter to which I have referred comes from Mr. G. L. McKay, secretary of the American Association of Creamery Butter Manufacturers. It is not addressed to me personally, because I am not acquainted with Mr. McKay, but my department is constantly in touch with the organization of which Mr. McKay is

Dairy Industry Act

secretary, and the letter from which I am about to quote was written to Mr. J. A. Ruddick, the Dairy and Cold Storage Commissioner. Mr. McKay gives a good deal more information than we asked for, but it is all very interesting. We merely inquired, by telegram, the value of renovated butter as a food product as compared with butter and other articles: we were anxious to know what part these mysterious vitamines played in this particular foodstuff. Mr. McKay says: There is nothing about renovated butter that should make it in any way unwholesome. Ladles or farm butter is gathered together and melted at a moderate heat. The pure butterfat or oil is pumped from the melting vat into funnel shaped tanks and air is blown through it, and that removes any odours that may adhere to the fat.

I may explain here that one of the reasons why dairy butter does not always keep is the fact that it is salted with exceedingly coarse salt, and often there is too much water left in it. Frequently, too, an excess of buttermilk or curd is left in the butter and its keeping properties are consequently impaired, so that it becomes rancid if not kept in cold storage.

When the oil becomes odourless it runs into cold water where it goes back into butter flakes, looking very much like butter granules. A starter is added to this,-

Sometimes people take this word "starter" to indicate a chemical compound, but it is nothing more nor less than sour cream. It is put into the churn to promote acidity. Seldom do we find dairy butter made from entirely sweet milk; there is always a slight acidity to it.

-and the granules in the same conditions stay in the starter for some time, and it is then worked in the usual manner. Some pour the starter into the oil, X understand, before it runs into the water to be congealed: in other words, renovated butter is butter

that has not been made right on the farm. It contains too much salt, or too much water, or too much curd. It is usually churned at too high a temperature and contains a lot of curd. Coarse salt is frequently used, and butter of a poor character is the result.

I will venture the suggestion, without knowing much about the business of some of my hon. friends opposite, that they have often been tempted themselves to raise the temperature of cream to make it "come."

Topic:   DAIRY INDUSTRY ACT, 1914. AMENDMENT
Permalink
PRO

Edward Joseph Garland

Progressive

Mr. GARLAND (Bow River):

Does the

minister speak from experience?

Topic:   DAIRY INDUSTRY ACT, 1914. AMENDMENT
Permalink
LIB
LAB

Joseph Tweed Shaw

Labour

Mr. SHAW:

Might that remark be considered a reflection on members on this side?

Topic:   DAIRY INDUSTRY ACT, 1914. AMENDMENT
Permalink
LIB

William Richard Motherwell (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. MOTHERWELL:

Not at all; I think it ought to be taken as a compliment. If hon. gentlemen are not familiar with these

things, then there is something lacking in their agricultural knowledge. Mr. McKay says:

The business has gone back in this country-

That is, the United States.

-very much due to the fact there are not as many farmers now making their own butter. The centralized system has extended so much in our country and covers such a wide territory and cream is shipped such a long distance that the farmers that used to make their own butter and trade it for groceries are selling their cream to the centralizers. Cream buying stations are scattered all over tihe United States. The farmer now brings in his cream in a crock or pail if he only has two or three cows, and if he has more he brings it in a can. It is only in scattered districts that the farmer is still making butter.

As far as purity goes, I can see no reason but what renovated butter is as clean and pure as any butter that is made.

As hon. gentlemen know, it depends on the buttermaker. I think half the people of Canada would prefer dairy butter if they could get it of good quality. In many instances they can and do get a good quality, because the product of a home dairy, made from one herd, under the supervision of one person who is a capable buttermaker, is at least quite equal to the average creamery butter.

I have seen some of it that would score 94 or 95. This depends somewhat upon the quality of the raw material, or the quality of the butter that was melted and the manner of making it. In scoring contests I have run across it several times put in as creamery butter. I invariably have been able to detect it by letting it dissolve in my mouth.

One of the reasons why renovated butter was prohibited was not because of its quality generally, but because those in charge of the dairy industry at that time were afraid that it might be mixed with creamery butter and jeopardize our market in the United Kingdom. Since then, however, we have instituted a grading system, so that this objection does not apply to-day as it did twenty years ago.

There is a slight oily taste. Then if it is broken apart on the trier, the grain is rather fine and glistens a little more than the ordinary creamery butter.

The word "grain" is not used very much now; we speak of "texture".

I talked with Mr. W. S. Moore, commission merchant, who used to be head of a large process factory, after receiving your telegram.

It used to be called "process butter".

He recommended it very highly although he is not dealing in it at the present time. He said that he has bought as much as ten or twelve carloads of ladle butter from northwest Canada a year, and he thinks in a country where there are a lot of farmers butter made especially of an irregular quality that a renovated factory would be a good thing.

In the wire sent to this gentleman there was no suggestion that we wanted information of this kind. Apparently in view of the situation

Dairy Industry Act

in the United States he wondered why Canada did not renovate its homemade butter. Thi3 is a long letter and I do not think I need read any further.

Topic:   DAIRY INDUSTRY ACT, 1914. AMENDMENT
Permalink
PRO

Robert Forke

Progressive

Mr. FORKE:

During the debate on oleomargarine the trouble feared seemed to be the mixing of butter with oleo. Is there any danger in this case of the mixing of oleomargarine with butter?

Topic:   DAIRY INDUSTRY ACT, 1914. AMENDMENT
Permalink
LIB

William Richard Motherwell (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. MOTHERWELL:

I do not anticipate any danger from oleomargarine inasmuch as the right to manufacture it will expire in August and it cannot be offered for sale after March next. But there is a danger of this renovated butter being mixed with creamery butter, and therefore if its manufacture is permitted it will have to be subject to the stipulation that it be manufactured in an entirely separate building, so there will not be the least temptation to work it into creamery butter. That is the danger which exists to-day with regard to oleomargarine. As a matter of fact "manna" consists of oleo mixed with butter. This bill prohibits the mixing of any foreign fats with butter. It provides that butter shall consist of eighty per cent butter fat, and this leaves no room for foreign fats as the other 20 per cent consists of salt and water.

Topic:   DAIRY INDUSTRY ACT, 1914. AMENDMENT
Permalink

June 22, 1923