April 20, 1923

CON

Arthur Meighen (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MEIGHEN:

What were the companies with whom the insurance was placed?

Topic:   CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS
Subtopic:   INSURANCE OF MORTGAGED PREMISES
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LIB

George Perry Graham (Minister of National Defence)

Liberal

Mr. GRAHAM:

The insurance was placed, I think, with two companies of insurance brokers who distributed it amongst various companies. I cannot bring to mind the names now.

Mr. MEIGHENThey were not brokers; they were companies.

Topic:   CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS
Subtopic:   INSURANCE OF MORTGAGED PREMISES
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LIB

George Perry Graham (Minister of National Defence)

Liberal

Mr. GRAHAM:

These companies do not carry the entire risk for the risks are very large.

Topic:   CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS
Subtopic:   INSURANCE OF MORTGAGED PREMISES
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CON

Arthur Meighen (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MEIGHEN:

They reinsure.

Topic:   CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS
Subtopic:   INSURANCE OF MORTGAGED PREMISES
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LIB

George Perry Graham (Minister of National Defence)

Liberal

Mr. GRAHAM:

Yes. As I understood the matter, they were insurance brokers, but I may be wrong about that. They, at least,

131 Jf

distribute the insurance. The question was raised if it would not be wipe to carry part of the insurance, perhaps in more densely populated areas. If that were done and our insurance were not spread over the lean areas, as well as the better portions, we were informed that the rate would be so much higher. As a matter of fact, the new president of the company procured a gentleman to go into the question of insurance in reference to the Canadian National Railway Board properties, and it was decided and the recommendation made that money could be saved by the government carrying its own insurance. Some years ago on the Intercolonial road, on which there was no insurance, the plan was inaugurated of the government putting aside each year from the returns from the road a certain amount for insurance. Our experience at that time was that that amount, although it was comparatively small, fully carried all the fire risks. The Grand Trunk, and, I think, one of the other lines have large insurance funds on hand now. I think the total of the two amounts is, at the present time, something like cash in hand of $2,000,000, so that the government insurance fund starts out already with a nucleus of about $2,000,000. It is not intended that, in the case of fire, the money should be taken in that particular way; but from the receipts of the system each year a certain amount will be put aside, approximately if not the same amount as would be paid under the ordinary rate of insurance.

Topic:   CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS
Subtopic:   INSURANCE OF MORTGAGED PREMISES
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CON

Arthur Meighen (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MEIGHEN:

Can the minister tell us what rates the Canadian National secured and what rates the Grand Trunk secured, the government road as against the privately operated road?

Topic:   CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS
Subtopic:   INSURANCE OF MORTGAGED PREMISES
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LIB

George Perry Graham (Minister of National Defence)

Liberal

Mr. GRAHAM:

I have not that with me at the present moment. I shall have it at the second reading of the bill.

Topic:   CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS
Subtopic:   INSURANCE OF MORTGAGED PREMISES
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CON

Arthur Meighen (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MEIGHEN:

I would ask the minister to get that.

Topic:   CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS
Subtopic:   INSURANCE OF MORTGAGED PREMISES
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LIB

George Perry Graham (Minister of National Defence)

Liberal

Mr. GRAHAM:

I did not expect the bill

to come up this afternoon, and I do not have that information with me. I do not intend to go any further than the first reading of the bill this afternoon.

The other day the leader of the Opposition (Mr. Meighen) asked me two questions which I had better answer now. When the resolution was first introduced, I think the leader of the Opposition stated, if I remember correctly, that the words "restore or make good'' were redundant. The instruments held by the trustees, in which .instruments the covenants are made, contain two different forms of

Northwest Territories Act

covenant. One form says "shall make good." The other form says "shall restore." This resolution is merely to conform in identical terms with the other instruments held by the trustees, and this form of resolution has been agreed upon between the solicitors of the trustees and the solicitors of the Canadian National Railways.

Topic:   CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS
Subtopic:   INSURANCE OF MORTGAGED PREMISES
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CON

Arthur Meighen (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MEIGHEN:

I first of all have no

objection at all to the new plan of insurance. With the much increased railway mileage and extent of property, it would seem to me the part of wisdom for the company now to carry its own insurance. I wish, however, information to be made official in this House as to the rate which the Canadian National Railways secured as compared with the rate which the Grand Trunk secured, and if the minister sees fit-I would not press for this-the rate which the Canadian Pacific secured. I have made some inquiries myself, and I must say I was astonished at the rate which the Canadian National Railway was able to secure on its insurance. I venture to believe that over an extended period of time, there would be little if any profit in this for the companies. It will be recalled that some year and a half ago, when it was thought fit to attack the management of the National Railways, special emphasis was laid on the horror of having directors there who were directors of companies doing business with the railways. That will be remembered. In my humble judgment, about the only one on the present board who has the right to be there in point of experience and capacity together, is head of the company doing a very large business with the railways. I would be the last to object to him on that ground, and I do not believe he will take the least advantage of this. His name is Mr. Stewart. But direction was especially drawn to the fact that the Canadian National Railway Company had insurance in concerns upon which even the manager, Mr. Hanna, and the treasurer, Mr. Mitchell, were directors! The public were led to believe there was something greatly wrong in that; that these men were favouring those companies with insurance for their own profit. I have gone to the trouble of ascertaining the facts. Those companies were doing insurance work for the Canadian National Railways long before Mr. Hanna or Mr. Mitchell was interested in them at all. Heavy losses, however, occurred in those companies, losses, arising chiefly from the San Francisco fire. Then it became necessary, if they were to get anything like the terms they got beford, to reconstitute the directorate and to have some money provided.

That was done under Mr. George A. Cox and others, in order that the interest of the railway company might be better looked after, Mr. Hanna and Mr. Mitchell were asked to take directorships on the insurance companies. They did that, and they did it with only nominal stock interest. They had nothing in reality; this was simply a small amount of stock transferred in their names for some years, when the policy was adopted of having only directors with a real interest. Then Mr. Hanna secured $500 worth in one company and SI,500 in another. The $500 worth in the one, he has lately sold at less than 30 cents on the dollar, and what he has in the other, he would be glad to sell at the same rate. This is the result of the interlocking directorships and the advantage to Mr. Hanna. Mr. Mitchell's experience is similar. It is only just to these men that this should be known. They were there in the interests of one of the largest insured parties of the companies, and I would be only too glad if their management of the railways in this regard was compared with the management of any private system anywhere, so that we might know whether or not the very lowest possible rates were secured. Instead of profiting by taking on these extra responsibilities they actually lost, and intended to lose.

Resolution reported, read the second time and concurred in. Mr. Graham thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 116 respecting the Canadian National Railways.

Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.

Topic:   CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS
Subtopic:   INSURANCE OF MORTGAGED PREMISES
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NORTHWEST TERRITORIES ACT AMENDMENT

CONCURRENCE IN SENATE AMENDMENT


Sir LOMER GOUIN (Minister of Justice) moved the second reading of and concurrence in an amendment made by the Senate to Bill No. 7 to amend the Northwest Territories Act. He said: As will be recalled, the purpose of this bill is to authorise magistrates for the Northwest Territories to try either within or outside the Northwest Territories, persons accused of offences committed therein. A special provision was adopted by this House to the effect that a person shall be qualified to serve as a juror in such trials although he is not a British subject. The Senate has refused to acquiesce in that provision and has therefore struck it out. We are accepting the amendment. Motion agreed to; amendment read the second time and concurred in. Judges in Admiralty 205)


JUDGES IN ADMIRALTY


Sir LOMER GOUIN (Minister of Justice) moved that the House go into committee to consider the following proposed resolution: That it is expedient to amend the Admiralty Act, chapter one hundred and forty-one of the Revised Statutes of Canada, 1906, and to provide that the Governor in Council may, from time to time, appoint for any admiralty district one or more deputy local judges, and revoke such appointments; appoint for any district or registry division of any district a deputy registrar; and when the local judge of the Quebec Admiralty District resides in Montreal, the deputy local judge residing in Quebec shall be paid the salary which he would have received if he were the local judge of the district; and when the local judge resides at Quebec, the deputy local judge residing at Montreal shall receive the salary which he would have received if he were the local judge of the district; but not more than one deputy local judge in any district shall receive a salary. Motion agreed to and the House went into committee, Mr. Gordon in the chair.


LIB

Lomer Gouin (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Liberal

Sir LOMER GOUIN:

By this resolution we propose to give to the Governor in Council power to appoint deputy local judges to act as Judges in Admiralty and we provide for a salary to be paid to the deputy local judge, which is not now provided for. We might take, for example, the province of Quebec, where we have two divisions of the Admiralty Court, one in Quebec and one in Montreal. At the present time the Judge in Admiralty is a judge of the Superior Court of Montreal. We have no deputy for the district of Quebec; We have only one registrar, whose office is in the city of Quebec; and we have no deputy registrar. As I have said, we propose by this suggested amendment to give to the Governor in Council power to appoint deputy local judges and, as well, power to revoke such appointments; also authority to appoint registrars. We provide further that when the local judge resides in Montreal and receives

Quebec shall receive the same salary; and if the deputy local judge resides in Quebec the deputy local judge residing in Montreal shall also receive the same indemnity.

Topic:   JUDGES IN ADMIRALTY
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CON

Hugh Guthrie

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. GUTHRIE:

I am not very familiar with the provisions of the Admiralty Act. Is there any provision under that act empowering the Governor in Council to revoke the appointment of a judge?

Topic:   JUDGES IN ADMIRALTY
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LIB

Lomer Gouin (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Liberal

Sir LOMER GOUIN:

I am speaking only of deputy local judges.

Topic:   JUDGES IN ADMIRALTY
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CON

Hugh Guthrie

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. GUTHRIE:

But I refer to any judge. We have local judges in Ontario, for instance, in the Supreme Court, and certainly there is

no power in the Governor in Council to revoke their appointments. Is there a power under the Admiralty Act vested in the Governor in Council to revoke the appointment of a deputy local judge?

Topic:   JUDGES IN ADMIRALTY
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LIB

Lomer Gouin (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Liberal

Sir LOMER GOUIN:

Chapter 141 of the Revised Statutes of 1906, the Admiralty Act, provides in section 8 that:

The Governor in Council may, from time to time, appoint any judge of a superior pr county court, or any barrister of not less than seven years' standing, to be a local judge in admiralty of the exchequer court in and for any admiralty district.

2. Every such local judge shall hold office during good behaviour, but shall be removable by the Governor General on address of the Senate and House of Commons.

3. Such judge shall be designated a local judge in Admiralty of the Exchequer Court.

As to the deputy local judges Section 11 provides:

A local judge in admiralty may, from time to time, with the approval of the Governor in Council, appoint a deputy judge; and such deputy judge shall have and exercise all such jurisdiction, powers and authority as are possessed by the local judge.

2. The appointment of a deputy judge shall not be determined by the occurrence of a vacancy m the office of the judge.

3. A local judge in admiralty may, with the approval of the Governor in Council, at any time revoke the appointment of a deputy judge.

Topic:   JUDGES IN ADMIRALTY
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April 20, 1923