April 10, 1923

LIB

James Murdock (Minister of Labour)

Liberal

Mr. MURDOCK:

The additions, I am told, amount to $150,000. There have, as my hon. friend suggests, been great reductions in the staff in the past few ymars affecting some 400 or more employees. For example, there have been, I believe, about 61 retirements, most of which have been in the nature of a reduction of staff, the positions not having been filled. I believe it will be possible to continue to reduce the staff by future retirements and have a Printing bureau reasonably modern and up-to-date, obviating the duplication of effort back and forth, as is now necessary. It is

believed that if this were done substantial reductions could be made. Then the floor space of the present Printing bureau is worth, on a rental basis, about $95,000 a year, possibly for some other branch of the public service, as has been suggested. In the matter of storage and the truckage of supplies back and forth between the two or three storage houses which the bureau now has to rent, this storage should all be within the Printing bureau itself, so as to avoid this unnecessary expense.

Topic:   SUPPLY-DISMISSAL OF JOHN J. HAYES FROM POSTAL SERVICE
Subtopic:   PUBLIC WORKS-OTTAWA PARLIAMENT BUILDINGS
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CON

Henry Lumley Drayton

Conservative (1867-1942)

Sir HENRY DRAYTON:

Where are these storage houses that are referred to?

Topic:   SUPPLY-DISMISSAL OF JOHN J. HAYES FROM POSTAL SERVICE
Subtopic:   PUBLIC WORKS-OTTAWA PARLIAMENT BUILDINGS
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LIB

James Murdock (Minister of Labour)

Liberal

Mr. MURDOCK:

They are scattered within three or four blocks of the Printing bureau. One of the storage houses is the old Hawkes-bury building near the Archives. The building, of course, belongs to the government and it requires certain expenditures for fuel, light and janitor. It is an out-of-date building and the supplies cannot be kept in proper shape in it.

Topic:   SUPPLY-DISMISSAL OF JOHN J. HAYES FROM POSTAL SERVICE
Subtopic:   PUBLIC WORKS-OTTAWA PARLIAMENT BUILDINGS
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CON

Henry Lumley Drayton

Conservative (1867-1942)

Sir HENRY DRAYTON:

What is kept

there?

Topic:   SUPPLY-DISMISSAL OF JOHN J. HAYES FROM POSTAL SERVICE
Subtopic:   PUBLIC WORKS-OTTAWA PARLIAMENT BUILDINGS
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LIB

James Murdock (Minister of Labour)

Liberal

Mr. MURDOCK:

Many publications that may or may not be required immediately or in the near future. We have, I think, two other storage buildings about three blocks from the Printing bureau, entailing an upkeep for watchmen and truckage.

Topic:   SUPPLY-DISMISSAL OF JOHN J. HAYES FROM POSTAL SERVICE
Subtopic:   PUBLIC WORKS-OTTAWA PARLIAMENT BUILDINGS
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CON

Henry Lumley Drayton

Conservative (1867-1942)

Sir HENRY DRAYTON:

What is stored in those other two?

Topic:   SUPPLY-DISMISSAL OF JOHN J. HAYES FROM POSTAL SERVICE
Subtopic:   PUBLIC WORKS-OTTAWA PARLIAMENT BUILDINGS
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LIB

James Murdock (Minister of Labour)

Liberal

Mr. MURDOCK:

Paper supplies, and binding and other materials of various kinds used in the bureau, for which there is not room down there, and which are carried on hand for the use of the various departments.

Topic:   SUPPLY-DISMISSAL OF JOHN J. HAYES FROM POSTAL SERVICE
Subtopic:   PUBLIC WORKS-OTTAWA PARLIAMENT BUILDINGS
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CON

Henry Lumley Drayton

Conservative (1867-1942)

Sir HENRY DRAYTON:

What area have we now for storage purposes in the existing bureau, and how many weeks' supplies can we carry there? It seems to me that this was all gone into two or three years ago, and my recollection is that there is enough room in the existing bureau to look after necessary supplies for a reasonable length of time. 1 think there is room for such supplies as any commercial man would have on hand.

Topic:   SUPPLY-DISMISSAL OF JOHN J. HAYES FROM POSTAL SERVICE
Subtopic:   PUBLIC WORKS-OTTAWA PARLIAMENT BUILDINGS
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LIB

James Murdock (Minister of Labour)

Liberal

Mr. MURDOCK:

My information is that that is not the case and that there is not sufficient room for many of the supplies that are carried. As a matter of fact, not very long ago there was considerable pressure brought to bear for the renting of additional storage space and for some rearrangement at the Printing bureau. We are carrying on with just the

Supply-Public Works

rented outside space and the Printing bureau somewhat rearranged.

Topic:   SUPPLY-DISMISSAL OF JOHN J. HAYES FROM POSTAL SERVICE
Subtopic:   PUBLIC WORKS-OTTAWA PARLIAMENT BUILDINGS
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CON

Henry Lumley Drayton

Conservative (1867-1942)

Sir HENRY DRAYTON:

If new buildings are to be built simply because pressure is brought to bear on the minister, then there would be no vacant land left for buildings if the minister remained in the department long enough. I want to know what the real facts are. I do not want to be told that this or that interest, or this or that person wants the minister to rent a building or to have a new building put up. I want to know what area of storage is available and how much material can be carried in that storage space for maximum operations during any given period. I want the business end of the matter.

Topic:   SUPPLY-DISMISSAL OF JOHN J. HAYES FROM POSTAL SERVICE
Subtopic:   PUBLIC WORKS-OTTAWA PARLIAMENT BUILDINGS
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LIB

James Murdock (Minister of Labour)

Liberal

Mr. MURDOCK:

There is rented an area of 40,000 square feet outside. The space in the Printing bureau is entirely insufficient, as my hon. friend would readily admit if he took a look at it.

Topic:   SUPPLY-DISMISSAL OF JOHN J. HAYES FROM POSTAL SERVICE
Subtopic:   PUBLIC WORKS-OTTAWA PARLIAMENT BUILDINGS
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CON

Henry Lumley Drayton

Conservative (1867-1942)

Sir HENRY DRAYTON:

I was not asking what space was rented outside. I want to know what space there is in the building and what supplies can be carried in that space.

Topic:   SUPPLY-DISMISSAL OF JOHN J. HAYES FROM POSTAL SERVICE
Subtopic:   PUBLIC WORKS-OTTAWA PARLIAMENT BUILDINGS
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LIB

James Murdock (Minister of Labour)

Liberal

Mr. MURDOCK:

I do not think that information could be accurately given. When you come to determine what supplies are necessary in order to carry on, you have to assume that supplies when ordered will come forward promptly, and my hon. friend knows well enough, with his railway experience, that you cannot figure on any such thing, but that you have to store sufficiently in advance so as to be sure to have on hand the stocks of paper and binding material and everything else that may be necessary. As my hon. friend knows, the various departments of the government, when they have printing to do, place their orders with the bureau and the stocks have to be secured to fill those orders. Those stocks have to be kept in a proper place until they can be used, and my hon. friend can readily convince himself that there is no spare storage space in the existing bureau if he will take the trouble to-morrow morning to go there and look the place over. If he cares to go I shall be glad to accompany him.

Topic:   SUPPLY-DISMISSAL OF JOHN J. HAYES FROM POSTAL SERVICE
Subtopic:   PUBLIC WORKS-OTTAWA PARLIAMENT BUILDINGS
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LIB

Frank S. Cahill

Liberal

Mr. CAHILL:

What time?

Topic:   SUPPLY-DISMISSAL OF JOHN J. HAYES FROM POSTAL SERVICE
Subtopic:   PUBLIC WORKS-OTTAWA PARLIAMENT BUILDINGS
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LIB

James Murdock (Minister of Labour)

Liberal

Mr. MURDOCK:

Any time.

Topic:   SUPPLY-DISMISSAL OF JOHN J. HAYES FROM POSTAL SERVICE
Subtopic:   PUBLIC WORKS-OTTAWA PARLIAMENT BUILDINGS
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CON

Henry Lumley Drayton

Conservative (1867-1942)

Sir HENRY DRAYTON:

What quantities of material, such as paper, are ordered? What quantities do you take delivery of? What is your contract?

Topic:   SUPPLY-DISMISSAL OF JOHN J. HAYES FROM POSTAL SERVICE
Subtopic:   PUBLIC WORKS-OTTAWA PARLIAMENT BUILDINGS
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LIB

James Murdock (Minister of Labour)

Liberal

Mr. MURDOCK:

That would depend entirely on what the order might be. Quite fre-

quently you have to call for tenders for 10, 15 or 20 tons or more at a time, according to the orders that come from the various departments. The Printing bureau does not send out these orders for material until the various departments indicate their desire to have certain printing done. When they require such printing done they present their order to the bureau and the necessary material has to be purchased.

Topic:   SUPPLY-DISMISSAL OF JOHN J. HAYES FROM POSTAL SERVICE
Subtopic:   PUBLIC WORKS-OTTAWA PARLIAMENT BUILDINGS
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CON

Henry Lumley Drayton

Conservative (1867-1942)

Sir HENRY DRAYTON:

It seems to me, Mr. Chairman, that the committee might as well make up its mind to vote the whole half million with the information it has before it. We are simply invited to instruct the government to go ahead and spend the $150,000 on the building. Why, the minister himself will tell us that $150,000 is a mere flea bite. I do not think he will guarantee for one moment to get us a site and build a new Printing bureau for half a million dollars. This is one of the most vicious features we have in connection with government matters-the commencement of works without any proper information, without any reliable estimate of cost, without anyone being responsible if the estimate is exceeded. We are merely invited to give a blank cheque for a new Printing bureau. The committee sees how much information we have. The amendment helps just a little bit, but so far as the Treasury is concerned it does not save one single dollar, for just as much money will be spent as may be required, and every member of the government knows it. Surely we can get something definite before we are asked to vote this money? Surely the minister will tell us exactly how much he is going to spend before he asks us to pass this vote? And surely we are entitled to a little more definite information as to the real necessity of this work at the present time.

Topic:   SUPPLY-DISMISSAL OF JOHN J. HAYES FROM POSTAL SERVICE
Subtopic:   PUBLIC WORKS-OTTAWA PARLIAMENT BUILDINGS
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PRO

John Warwick King

Progressive

Mr. KING (Kootenay):

I thought I had made myself clear in my first statement, that we have an old building erected some thirty-six years ago and no longer suitable for present day equipment used in the printing trade, and that for some four or five years extensive additions have been made to this old building at an expenditure which I would be inclined to consider was wasted. We had the alternative this year of making another addition to this old building, which we did not think would be a wise expenditure, or consider the advisability of utilizing it for departmental purposes and providing a new building for the Printing bureau. The bureau is an important branch of the government service and requires a very large expenditure each year, and it is essential if its work

Supply-Public TForfcs

is to be carried on economically and efficiently that proper equipment and adequate buildings should be provided. We are advised by the bureau people that they are to-day operating under serious difficulties. In fact, as the Minister of Labour (Mr. Murdock) stated this afternoon, it was found last year unsafe to run one of the heavy machines on the third floor and it was brought down to the ground floor. Then again we find high pressure boilers for the operation of the machinery placed in the centre of one of these wings. The great heat from these boilers makes it uncomfortable for those working in this section of the building, and the fire hazard must also be taken into account. Under all the circumstances I think we are quite right in advising parliament at this time not to expend further money on the old building, but to construct a new building for the Printing bureau and utilize the present building for some other departmental purposes. That is the explanation I tried to make in the first place. I think it is sound.

Topic:   SUPPLY-DISMISSAL OF JOHN J. HAYES FROM POSTAL SERVICE
Subtopic:   PUBLIC WORKS-OTTAWA PARLIAMENT BUILDINGS
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CON

Henry Lumley Drayton

Conservative (1867-1942)

Sir HENRY DRAYTON:

Let us see how far we have got. I am going to ask my friend the first thing that one would naturally want to know when requested to undertake a new work-how much will the completed work cost? We have not had the slightest suggestion yet as to that.

Topic:   SUPPLY-DISMISSAL OF JOHN J. HAYES FROM POSTAL SERVICE
Subtopic:   PUBLIC WORKS-OTTAWA PARLIAMENT BUILDINGS
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April 10, 1923