June 17, 1922

IND

William Charles Good

Independent Progressive

Mr. GOOD:

The reason I asked the

question is that I had an opportunity of visiting some coating mills in Ontario and had a conversation with some of the men connected with them. One gentleman, in particular, an Englishman, who was very familiar with the manufacture of paper in the Old Country, stated that the Canadian manufacturers were very much behind the times in their methods. We are giving a very high protection on this partic-

ular line of commodity-35 per cent-and I think, before we pass the item, we ought to be reasonably sure that we are not encouraging the maintenance of these old-fashioned and obsolete methods of manufacture. It, seems a very high protection.

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LIB

William Stevens Fielding (Minister of Finance and Receiver General)

Liberal

Mr. FIELDING:

I think, in the case

of the items of the general tariff, hon. members should bear in mind that I stated that it was not our intention to reduce the general tariff on goods expected to come from the United States. We made exceptions in a few cases, but, speaking generally, we did not desire, at the present time and for reasons given, to reduce the duties on American goods, and that is the reason that the present item remains at 35 per cent. The magazine publishers made a plea for some further consideration in various forms. They think they are suffering an injustice, and to this extent, giving them a reduction on that class of goods in the British preference, we are meeting their wishes. This class of paper is not imported to any extent from Great Britain, but I am advised that very likely it will be.

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IND

William Charles Good

Independent Progressive

Mr. GOOD:

If the effect will be to encourage the importation from Great Britain, as compared with the United States, I see some justification for the position the minister takes; otherwise, it seems to me, it will be working a hardship to the Canadian consumers of paper. Some little time ago I had a communication-and probably other members received the same communication-'from the Canadian publishers of magazines dealing with the cost of their coated paper, and1 I appreciate the disabilities under which they are labouring. I would like to know whether or not this change is going to meet the situation as presented to us.

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LIB

William Stevens Fielding (Minister of Finance and Receiver General)

Liberal

Mr. FIELDING:

Very few changes we make will fully meet the desire's of those who make the representations. As far as it goes, it is in the right direction. I think they will get a considerable quantity of British paper under this item. That remains to be seen, but, as respects the duty on the American paper, my hon. friend will appreciate the reason I gave for the course that has been followed.

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CON

Horatio Clarence Hocken

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. HOCKEN:

I have not very much objection to the duty, but I wish some method could be found by which the Canadian publisher could be protected against the American magazines which come in. Two

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or three years ago, I had occasion to investigate this, and 'I discovered that paper could (be bought in Buffalo at such low prices that the goods could be landed in Toronto with the duty paid, at exactly the same price as paid in Canada.

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LIB
CON

Horatio Clarence Hocken

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. HOCKEN:

It looked to me as

though the duty had been added. I am in favour, Mr. Chairman, of giving adequate protection to our paper .mills, but I would like to find some method by which the hon. minister could prevent the finished article coming in. It is not only in the interests of the publishers, but in the interests of the sentiment of this country, that this should be done. The way Canada is flooded with American magazines to-day is not in the best interests of this country, :f we are going to build up a Canadian nation.

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LIB
CON

Horatio Clarence Hocken

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. HOCKEN:

Because these magazines teach everything they have in the United States, and. are simply a boost for the United States. It is impossible, with the competition we have, for any man, I do not care what amount of money he may have to invest, to establish a magazine in Canada that can hold its place. He cannot get the circulation that will warrant the advertising rates, and if a man spent two or three million dollars trying to establish a Canadian magazine, he could not succeed in competition with the magazines from the United States. If it were necessary, I could recite to this House a score of magazines that have been started in this country, and a large amount of money spent in trying to establish them, but without success. The Canadian Courier was one paper that was started. Something like a quarter of a million dollars was expended upon it. There was a really patriotic motive behind the publisher in that case; he did his best to establish a Canadian magazine to express Canadian sentiment, to be a market for Canadian writers and Canadian illustrators. After spending a large amount of money, he was compelled to suspend publication. The same thing applies to many other Canadian magazines. The Local Council of Women started the Canadian Century; but they were unable to carry on their magazine, although that is a very large organization. I do not suggest that a change should be made now; but at the next session, I should like to

see the Minister of Finance (Mr. Fielding) go into this question very fully, in order to find out if there is not some way of affording to Canadian publishers a measure of protection that would make it possible for real Canadian magazines to be established in this country. The best success that has been obtained in the way of a general magazine is, I think, by Maclean's, and yet I venture to say that it is not a money-making proposition by any means. No Canadian magazine will be a money-making proposition unless some impost is put on the finished article coming in from the United States.

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LIB

George William Kyte (Whip of the Liberal Party; Chief Government Whip)

Liberal

Mr. KYTE:

I never was in thorough

accord with the protectionist sentiments of my hon. friend from West Toronto (Mr. Hocken) ; but we have here a new feature of protection which the hon. member is endeavouring to fasten upon this country, that is, to " protect " the people against selecting their literature. Surely, if there is in the world anything which ought to be free, and as regards which a person ought to make his individual choice, it is the sort of literature that he desires to read. It is regrettable that money invested in Canadian magazines has not given returns to those whose desire was to establish such magazines; nevertheless, I do not think the reading public of Canada ought to be penalized on account of their failure. I am not aware that many magazines are published in Canada. From time to time some attempts have been made to publish in Canada magazines, some of which were fairly good, others mediocre, and another class that did not deserve very much encouragement. If United States publishers will produce a class of magazine literature that aims to satisfy the reading instinct and impulse of the people of Canada, it would be protection run mad to prevent the Canadian people from enjoying such literature.

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PRO

Robert Forke

Progressive

Mr. FORKE:

I do not think any one in this House will accuse me of being a protectionist. At the same time, I have a great deal of sympathy with the hon. member for West Toronto (Mr. Hocken) in regard to magazine literature. Perhaps, Sir, you would not so imagine, but I have had some connection with the Sunday schools, and I find that in all those Sunday school papers, every illustration you get as to great national figures, men whose lives and characters are worth copying, is drawn from United States statesmen or leaders in public life in the United States.

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I do not think that is a very good thing as regards creating a national spirit and sentiment. When we come to the matter of magazines, one of the great difficulties which we have to overcome in this country is the fact that men with great literary ability in a very short time go to New York, Chicago or some other place where they can be paid more money than they can get from Canadian magazines. I do not say I should like protection; but I should like to see every encouragement possible [DOT] given to the Canadian literature and Canadian magazines. We talk about trading with the Americans as regards buying implements-if you will allow me to use that illustration-and other goods; but more insidious than anything else as regards creating a national .feeling is the literature that the people read. American firms, in our picture shows, and in magazines to be read in our households, will do more to frustrate the creation of a national spirit in Canada than any other means that I know of. I do not know just what steps I should like to see taken, but I should like to see Canadian literature and magazines of every kind encouraged in every possible way.

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CON

Murray MacLaren

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MacLAREN:

I should like to point out that the difficulty Canadian magazines face in obtaining the success and wide circulation that one so often sees in the case of American magazines, does not depend upon an inferiority in the articles contained in Canadian magazines. I do not think Canadian magazines need fear the competition of American magazines from the standpoint of literary value, ability and interest. What, then, is the difference? The difference is, I think, due to the advertisements that are contained in American magazines. The circulation of many of them is very much greater than the circulation a Canadian magazine can have, certainly at the outset; and when advertisements are placed in magazines which obtain a very wide circulation, as is the case in newspapers, a very large revenue is obtained from such advertisements. This enables Americans to compete only too successfully with our magazines. The advantage which they have over us is not from a literary standpoint so much as from the revenue obtained from their advertisements. If, without imposing any special tax on American magazines per se as periodicals or literary papers, it could be that such magazines so far as they contain advertise-

ments should be taxed, then this Country would certainly lose nothing from an educational standpoint, but it would give our people an advantage in producing magazines; for the American magazines would not obtain the enormous circulation they now obtain in Canada, and which they are largely enabled to obtain by the revenue derived from those advertisements.

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CON

Henry Lumley Drayton

Conservative (1867-1942)

Sir HENRY DRAYTON:

In common, no doubt, with many other hon. members, I am quite sure, in common with the Minister of Finance (Mr. Fielding), I have received the following telegram:

The Canadian magazine and periodical publishers have appealed for relief from their present impossible and intolerable position and have suggested three methods: 1. Application of

present duty on printed and adverfising matter to the advertising appearing in foreign magazines and periodicals; 2. Application of the

present duty and import tax to paper coming into Canada in the form of finished magazines and periodicals; 3. Removal of all duty on paper, ink, engravings, art work and other materials used in or for the manufacture of magazines and periodicals. Unless some measure of relief is granted some of our members must either cease publication of their magazines or make arrangements to have them printed in the United States and shipped into Canada by freight, as United States magazines now are, thus avoiding all duties and import tax and depriving Canadian employees in paper mills, ink manufacturers, engravers, electrotypers and printers, of employment. We earnestly request that something be done at this session of Parliament to alleviate our ruinous position.

I assume that these representations have been made to my hon. friend. I do not know whether he agrees with them or not, or whether he thinks it is possible for the Canadian magazines to carry on under present conditions. But I do know that there is a very great deal of truth in what has been here set forth. I know, for example, that the American magazines come over in carload lots to different points in the country, whence they are distributed, and that we get no revenue out of them in connection with our postal service, except the small postage they pay. I also know, and I think every hon. gentleman knows, that very serious representations have been made from time to time by numerous patriotic and religious societies against the importation of American magazines. And the objection to these magazines is not confined to these bodies. The Great War Veterans have taken no uncertain stand against the circulation of Hearst's magazines in Canada, and the point has been taken that these magazines, in a large number of cases, cannot in any way be said

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to be either instructive or properly amusing, but merely salacious. From the list of magazines submitted to me I should think that there is some ground at least for that view. Now, we are really considering a serious question, in this connection, having regard to our Canadian national life. After all, the spirit of a country as well as its character depends in no small degree upon its literature. Do we want that literature to be Canadian, or do we not? That really is the bald question that we have to consider. It is idle to talk about Canadian magazines being in a position to compete with the American magazines. Why, the magazine published in the United States has advertisers who pay rates on advertisements intended for a market of 114,000,000, and as hon. gentlemen undoubtedly know, the advertising revenues are the great stand-by of these publications, their very lifeblood; and that revenue depends upon the circulation which the magazine enjoys. The American advertiser has not only the home field, but he has the Canadian market thrown in besides. American publications are scattered broadcast throughout Canada. They contain- and properly so-purely American advertisements and American ideas; certainly they do not propagate any Canadian thoughts. It would be quite impossible for any Canadian manufacturer or producer to pay the advertising rates paid by the American producer and manufacturer. He cannot get into the American market, for their Marking Act, among other things, sees to that. They, on the other hand, can, and do get in here. Here, then, you have a mixed question. You have the question, on the one hand, as to whether a Canadian national spirit is worth while or not; and you have also the question as to whether or not you want to make it all the easier for American goods to flood this country. My opinion is that the complaint of the magazine publishers is well founded. I do not think that any of them is in a proper position to compete with the American publishers. The Canadian publishers are, I believe, all in a more or less difficult situation. Looking at the matter from every standpoint,-the creation of a distinctive Canadian literature being not the least important consideration by any means-we might at least do as much for our Canadian publishers as we 4 p.m. do for Canadian hardware or anything else. We have a tariff of 15 cents per pound on advertising materials, and as hon. gentlemen know, who

read these magazines, a very large part of them consists almost entirely of advertisements. Some of these magazines, indeed, are printed largely for, and maintained by, advertisers, but simply because they are called magazines and publish a few articles they come into Canada free. Why should not the law calling for an impost of 15 cents a pound on advertising matter be applied to the advertisements contained in these magazines? At least, why could not something be done, by way of a tariff regulation, to look after and help Canadian literature?

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LIB

William Stevens Fielding (Minister of Finance and Receiver General)

Liberal

Mr. FIELDING:

There is much that

can be said from the publisher's point of view. My hon. friend (Sir Henry Drayton) puts the question broadly: do we, or do we not, want American magazines? Well, some people may reply, that is a question for the individual buyer to decide for himself. If he buys American magazines it must be because he wants to read them; and there is no restriction to-day of the liberty of the Canadian people )to buy American magazines in preference to Canadian publications if they desire to do so. I must confess that I have every sympathy with the point of view of the Canadian publishers, and have been impressed during the interviews I have had with them on the question. But the question is not a new one. It does not come before me to-day for the first time, and I am sure it was brought before my hon. friend (Sir Henry Drayton) in more than one year. It is, comparatively speaking, an old question. Every government that has had to deal with it has come to the same conclusion, that very much can be said in regard to the hardship which the Canadian magazine suffers; but no government, so far, has been prepared to impose a tax on American magazines. If we are sinning in this matter to-day, therefore, we are sihning in the company of my hon. friend who has had to deal with the same problem and has reached the same conclusion. My hon. friend referred to various resolutions passed by the Great War Veterans and others regarding Hearst's publications. That, of course, is a different question; it has reference altogether to a particular magazine which is anti-British in spirit; and although I do not advocate the repression of the right of the people to buy even these magazines if they desire to do so, I grant that this question is open to consideration. The representations that have been made in regard to these particular

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magazines, however, do not urge any tariff proposal or anything of that kind, hut suggest that the magazines should be prohibited the use of the mails. If a collection of advertising matter printed in the United States is brought into Canada as such, it is subject to a tax of 15 cents per pound; but advertisements incorporated in magazines may come in free. I frankly admit that the matter presents a problem, and I wish that I knew of some legitimate way by which we could help Canadian magazines, which I have no doubt are suffering a hardship. We are doing little now, but what we are doing is in to direction of some assistance.

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CON

Henry Lumley Drayton

Conservative (1867-1942)

Sir HENRY DRAYTON:

My hon.

friend would like to know what remedy can be applied. Why not tax the advertising matter?

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LIB

William Stevens Fielding (Minister of Finance and Receiver General)

Liberal

Mr. FIELDING:

For the same reason

that the hon. member did not do that a year ago.

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CON

Henry Lumley Drayton

Conservative (1867-1942)

Sir HENRY DRAYTON:

That is a

poor reason. Surely my hon. friend will not take that stand. I admit that he is adopting a whole lot of our ways of a year ago, and is indeed going a hundred per cent further.

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LIB

William Stevens Fielding (Minister of Finance and Receiver General)

Liberal

Mr. FIELDING:

A hundred per cent

better.

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CON

Henry Lumley Drayton

Conservative (1867-1942)

Sir HENRY DRAYTON:

Not better.

But I should like to point out that as a matter of fact I never declined that relief. I thought that it ought to be granted, and if the accident of December 6th last had not occurred, I can assure my hon. friend, the interests of the Canadian magazines would have been protected. The minister would like to protect those interests. Well, there are two ways in which he can help the Canadian magazines. First, he might charge that 15 cents per pound on advertising matter contained in these magazines; or, if that is too complicated a system, he could put a tax of so much per pound-5 or 10 cents, or whatever rate is deemed advisable-on all magazines imported. So that under the British preferential tariff there would be no duty at all on magazines; under the general tariff it would be five or ten cents a pound, as the case might be.

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CON

Horatio Clarence Hocken

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. HOCKEN:

There is another aspect of this question that ought to be mentioned. I think these magazines that come in from the United States ought to come under the dumping clause. They are certainly sold

in Canada in some cases at twenty-five per cent of the cost of production. There are magazines coming in from the* United States, consisting of from 100 to 150 pages, printed on photo paper and selling at ten cents or thereabouts, which could not be produced' in this country at less than 25 cents a copy. I do not object to any man buying the kind of literature that he desires, but I do object to discrimination against our publications, because that is exactly what it amounts to-discrimination against our own manufacturers, as the exMinister of Finance (Sir Henry Drayton) has said. There is one publication coming into, this country and circulating to the extent of 100,000 copies a month, and a Canadian manufacturer who wants to get into that paper has to pay a rate of $7,000 a page. He has to pay that for the 100,000 circulation in Canada, but he has to pay, of course, also for a further circulation of 1,500,000, although only the 100,000 is of any value to himj. That is the most extreme case I have to offer, but other publications come close to that amount. So that if you take only two of these publications, you have one with a weekly circulation of

100,000 copies, carrying not a single advertisement of a Canadian dealer, and another with a monthly circulation of 100,000, from which also the Canadian dealer is excluded. Our newspapers are full of the "Made in Canada" campaign, yet we are facilitating the advertising of purely American-made articles in publications to which the Canadian manufacturer cannot get access. It is worth while considering, Mr. Chairman, whether these publications, which come in by the carload, as the hon. member for West York (Sir Henry Drayton) says, should not come under the dumping clause or ibe taxed in some other way so as to make possible the creation in Canada of a Canadian national magazine. If I were to choose 'between American maga-ines and others coming from outside of our own country, I would prefer the British magazines; but perhaps they are not made up just to the liking of the Canadian people, owing to the fact that modern taste in this respect has been developed by education carried on by the United States publications. But the condition of the publishing interests in Canada is very critical. And it is an important interest; the men employed in it are among the most highly skilled and highly paid workmen we have ,'n the country. But these men are being driven out of the country-the same applies

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to literary and artistic ability manifested in other directions-by reason of the fact tnat there is no market in Canada for the services of a man who can do high-class work either in literature or in art. The best way to remedy that is to put it within the financial reach of some group of men to establish a real Canadian publication that can get a circulation of 100,000 or 200,000. Under present conditions that is impossible.

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June 17, 1922