June 9, 1922

PRO
LIB

William Richard Motherwell (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. MOTHERWELL:

Yes, and it is one of the most difficult duties, I think, I can conceive of for a conscientious inspector to examine a herd of cattle. A man will probably take 15 or 20 years to build up a pure bred herd. He is in the dairy business, and his whole living depends on it, and, just like a bolt from the blue, it is announced to him that his herd is tubercular. Well, the natural tendency for the inspector is to be sympathetic, and yet his judgment tells him that he must be just. There are two sentiments warring in him; one to be sympathetic and help out the man who has suffered a severe loss, then secondly he is dealing with the Government's money, and, as a matter of fact, it is the people's money-it is the same man's money. The inspector knows there is only a certain amount of it, and, if he is a good officer, he wants to show results and get the best out of that money. He knows his duty is to give a just valuation. If you had an appeal you would involve the whole thing with such a lot of cumbersome legal expenses and proceedings that I do not know where you would get. I know there is a sort of feeling that this should be something like an ordinary case in court, where a lower court renders a decision and you can appea' to a higher court, and so cn. I think you would drive the Government out of business altogether, if that system were in effect.

Animal Contagious Diseases

Topic:   ANIMAL CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACT AMENDMENT
Permalink
CON

Simon Fraser Tolmie

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. TOLMIE:

I might be able to throw a little light on this, having had a good deal of practical experience actually in the field, in enforcing the provisions of the Animal Contagious Disease Act. In the first place, in the event of an outbreak of glanders being reported at a certain place, an insp sctor is sent immediately and makes an inspection, and if he finds suspicions of glanders he makes out form 49, placing all the animals, stables and building in quarantine, preventing the owner moving the diseased animals out. Then he proceeds to test the animals with malleim and if he finds reactors, the reactors are destroyed and the buildings are disinfected. The premises are kept in quarantine and the remaining animals kept there for a certain period, until all danger is passed.

Topic:   ANIMAL CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACT AMENDMENT
Permalink
PRO
CON

Simon Fraser Tolmie

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. TOLMIE:

Yes, or any of those diseases scheduled in the Act.

Topic:   ANIMAL CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACT AMENDMENT
Permalink
PRO
CON
PRO

Thomas Wakem Caldwell

Progressive

Mr. CALDWELL:

Is it compulsory that the man must have his herd inspected?

Topic:   ANIMAL CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACT AMENDMENT
Permalink
CON

Simon Fraser Tolmie

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. TOLMIE:

The application of the law, as far as tuberculosis is concerned, is compulsory in connection with the testing of herds supplying milk to any city where the city has applied to have the milk supply herd tested.

Topic:   ANIMAL CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACT AMENDMENT
Permalink
PRO
CON

Simon Fraser Tolmie

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. TOLMIE:

Under the accredited herd system, you have to apply to the government to have your pure-bred herd tested. It was found necessary for us to adopt the system, for the reason that one of the greatest markets for pure-bred cattle is across the line. In the United States they have adopted the accredited herd system, and quite naturally the owner of an accredited herd on the United States side would hesitate before coming over to the Canadian side and buying cattle that were not accredited here. That was why the system was adopted; and by that system we are able, through an arrangement, to ship our cattle from an accredited herd to them without any testing on the boundary line. Cattle are tested when furnishing milk to towns over 5,000 population when application is made lay the municipality.

As regards fixing the compensation in the case of a pure-bred animal, the animal,

unless it is a very scrubby one, carries its pedigree on its back, and there is no difficulty in fixing the value, because if it is worth anything at all, it is worth as much as the amount of the valuation allowed on it. The amount of compensation is established not to exceed the amounts mentioned by the minister. In the case of a calf not worth that amount, the value is fixed by the inspector. In the case of a dispute, there is not much difficulty. In rare cases of dispute, it is usual to send for the chief inspector, who is a man of wide experience, and who can handle the public pretty well, and a satisfactory arrangement is arrived at without any further difficulty.

The Health of Animals branch in Canada stands as high as the Inspection of Animals branch in any other country in the world. In fact, the Health of Animals branch in Canada stands in a class by itself. I am very glad to say that, at the present time, our herds in Canada are freer from contagious disease than the herds of any other country in the world, with the possible exception of Norway. The situation is most excellent.

During the budget debate, I gave some figures in connection with hog cholera showing what a splendid improvement had taken place. For instance, in 1915, we had no less than 34,779 head of hogs destroyed for hog cholera. In that year we adopted what are known as the garbage feeding regulations, making it necessary to sterilize or cook thoroughly all garbage fed to swine. The result has been a gradual reduction in the number of swine destroyed. In that particular year just under 3200,000 was paid for compensation. That has been gradually reduced, until in the year ended 31st March, 1922, only 429 hogs were killed on account of hog cholera, and compensation of less than $4,000 was paid. In my address on the budget-I think the Minister of Agriculture was not present at the time-I urged that he take advantage of the present occasion to clean up the herds of Canada so as to render them entirely free from this particular disease. We succeeded in doing that an British Columbia, and for two years prior to the time that I fell from grace and entered politics, we did not have a single case of hog cholera in British Columbia.

Topic:   ANIMAL CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACT AMENDMENT
Permalink
PRO

William John Ward

Progressive

Mr. WARD:

As one who has had some experience in having cattle tested and who has also sustained a serious loss running into many thousands of dollars, I heartily agree with what the minister has said with

Animal Contagious Diseases

reference to an appeal. I think lit would be dangerous, to say the least, to introduce any appeal. My experience has been that the inspector's decision is usually a very fair one. I should like, however, to reply to the ex-Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Tol-mie) in his reference to the value of a tubercular cow. I should like to draw the attention of the committee to a herd in northern Manitoba. Possibly the best herd of Shorthorn cattle in northern Manitoba was tested for tuberculosis last fall, and out of 41 head, 37 cattle reacted. Many of those cattle had been over a good part of Manitoba last year at the shows and had won many prizes; yet 37 of them went down under the test. Until those animal's were tested they were just as valuable to the man who owned them as any other animals; in fact, one animal of that herd was sold for $800, subject to the test. Of course, the animal reacted, and the owner lost the sale of it.

As a breeder, I think a breeder who establishes and maintains a standard herd, is making the biggest sacrifice of any man who is in business in Canada, and he is not getting the encouragement that he should receive. I venture to say that there are not half a dozen men in western Canada who are raising pure-bred stock, who have not lost money every year for the last three years. Apart from the fact that such a man is losing money in endeavouring to build up a standard herd of cattle, there is the effect-I am not going into the details of that-that this has upon the human race. I would advocate that the compensation be left where it is, but that the matter be made more flexible. I agree with the minister when he says that owners of many herds in this country would be much better off if their herds were all slaughtered, if they got only $100 apiece; but those are not standard cattle; they are no better than grades. If a man is trying to build up a standard herd, he is not getting the compensation he should get, and if the compensation is reduced to $100 for a No. 1 animal, it simply means that the man who has a good herd will not risk having the herd tested. Some of the biggest breeders in the West have so far refused to have their herds tested because they claim that the loss might be too great. I personally would not risk having my herd tested. Those are matters that should have serious consideration.

Topic:   ANIMAL CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACT AMENDMENT
Permalink
PRO

Harry Leader

Progressive

Mr. LEADER:

As one who has had experience also in this matter of testing

cattle, it, perhaps, would be in order for me to give the House a few observations on this subject. I have some real interest in this work, and I have had some practical experience as to the operation of the accredited herd system. I do not say this in any egotistical spirit, but three weeks after the regulations came into force, my application was in Ottawa asking that I might come under this system. The system was inaugurated in September, 1919, and in October, my application was in. I do not know whether it was the first in Canada or not, but I know it was the first received from west of the Great Lakes. 1 am very proud of that. My practical experience goes through the whole system. I had my herd tested; I took my loss, and I operated under the system until finally last fall I received my certificate of accreditation. I am proud of that certificate. Not only does it give me the satisfaction of knowing that my herd is absolutely free from tuberculosis, but I have the additional satisfaction that my children and the members of my household are, so far as human science can determine, receiving pure and clean milk. I wish to congratulate the ex-Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Tolmie) who, during his regime, inaugurated and carried out these regulations, until the breeders of this country took it up with a desire and enthusiasm to clean up their herds. A great deal of credit is coming to the hon. member for Victoria City for the way in which he handled this matter. The inspectors under his charge gave great satisfaction, and the system is altogether working to the satisfaction of the breeders who really are the ones most concerned.

I wish to protest against the reduction of the indemnity paid for pure-bred cattle. I have received numerous letters and telegrams and I know if I stay here long enough I shall be besieged by sheaves of letters and telegrams in regard to this matter. Breeders are just waking up to the fact that there is going to be a reduction in the indemnity. I would just read this telegram that I received from C. W. McMillan, president of the Manitoba Shorthorn Club:

Harry Leader, M.F.

Ottawa, Ont.

I understand that the Government intends reducing the valuation of pure bred cattle destroyed under the accredited herd system from $250 to $150 and grades from $80 to $40. If this is so, I want to protest on behalf of the Manitoba Shorthorn Club and the cattle

Animal Contagions Diseases

breeders in general as this would have a tendency to discourage rather than stimulate the cattle breeding industry of this province. I am writing you fully to-day.

Manitoba Shorthorn Club,

C. W. McMillan,

President.

I believe also that this will have a tendency to curtail the work. We have spent considerable money, but not sufficient. Of $1,500,000 spent last year 50 per cent was paid to the inspectors and less than $500,000 to the owners of reacting cattle. Now is the time to begin a vigorous campaign against this disease. If I might be allowed to do so, I might mention my own case. When I decided to bring my herd under the accredited system I had one reactor in seventeen. The loss was not great, and the Government did not have to pay me much by way of compensation. To-day I have over 40 head and they are all absolutely free from the disease. We should begin right away to combat the ravages of tuberculosis, but if we go after the disease in any halfhearted manner and loaf on the job we shall certainly make no headway. I would urge upon the Government that we institute an aggressive campaign in this matter. No big victory was ever won in France as a result of passive defence; it took active aggression; and we must have an aggressive campaign if we are to conquer this disease. I have a report from the Veterinary General, Dr. Torrance, which shows that in 1904-5 there was paid for glandered horses $147,851, as against some $6,070, in 1920-21. In 1904-5 there were slaughtered 2,113 horses, and in 192021, fifty-nine. Now that concise comparison proves conclusively that an aggressive campaign will accomplish whatever you set out to do. Dr. Torrance, speaking at a meeting in Toronto last summer, said:

Our control work is having a marked effect in stimulating interest in tuberculosis In general;

This is in regard to cattle.

We may expect the movement to grow until tuberculosis is as rare a disease among cattle as glanders now is in horses.

I protest against the reduction in the indemnifications for cattle. One is astounded when he considers the losses that are sustained, economically and materially, from tuberculosis. But what about the effect of the disease on human beings? The statistics show that one child, in every three under the age of ten who have tuberculosis, contracted the disease through a

bovine origin. Whether or not this is true, it is generally agreed by all doctors that tuberculosis is communicable to man from animals, and if we could save the life of one child our efforts would be fully warranted. I think we should do everything within our power to eradicate the terrible scourge of the white plague from the human race.

Topic:   ANIMAL CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACT AMENDMENT
Permalink
LIB

Jean-Joseph Denis

Liberal

Mr. DENIS (Joliette):

I agree

with what has been said by my hon. friend (Mr. Leader) and I have a question to ask the minister. What steps are being taken to protect the pub-1 lie who buy milk that comes from uninspected herds? The former Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Tolmie) said a minute ago that there were some municipal regulations, but that is no protection at all. Is the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Motherwell) going to wait for the municipalities to pass by-laws and see that they are observed, and so on? I think it is incumbent upon the minister to see to it that all herds that are kept for the purpose of supplying milk to the public should be thoroughly inspected, and if they are affected by disease they should be slaughtered according to law. I should like to know what steps are being taken to safeguard the public against the man who offers for sale milk that has been obtained from herds that have not been inspected.

Topic:   ANIMAL CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACT AMENDMENT
Permalink
LIB

William Richard Motherwell (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. MOTHERWELL:

Reforms of this

nature have usually to be introduced gradually and, at the beginning, voluntarily. After a certain progress has been made through voluntary action and co-operation, then probably the time will come for compulsory action. But my hon. friend (Mr. Denis) will probably be surprised to learn that even the provision with respect to cities was on the statute books for several years before advantage was taken of it, even voluntarily. The public sentiment must be aroused, and during the last three or four years this sentiment has grown to a wonderful extent compared with what it was seven or eight years ago, when the act was first passed. I do not remember the exact year the act was 11 p.m. put through, but it must have been about eight years ago. It provided that cities of 5,000 and over might take action, pass a certain bylaw, and get the health inspectors to take the necessary steps with regard to cattle that supplied milk to the particular municipality. And it took a distressingly long

Animal Contagions Diseases

time before all that procedure was taken advantage of. Now, however, we have reached the stage where neither men nor funds are sufficient to keep up with the work. I do not know when the time will come when the Government can issue its fiat to all and sundry to have all their animals examined, irrespective of whether the municipality in which the milk is sold has passed by-laws or not. Compulsory action of that kind must depend on the state of public sentiment, and whether that sen-1 timent is strong enough to warrant such action I do not know. I have no doubt the time will come, but as a matter of fact nearly all reforms are introduced first by the voluntary method. When half or two-thirds of the people have endorsed any particular policy the Government can then say to the rest of the country: "The majority of the people are desirous that this policy shall be adopted and therefore it is in the interests of the whole country that it shall be made general."

Topic:   ANIMAL CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACT AMENDMENT
Permalink
LIB

Jean-Joseph Denis

Liberal

Mr. DENIS (Joliette) :

I submit

that the people do want this inspection now. They want to be protected. I have a concrete case to submit to the minister. No longer

than a week or two ago a veterinary surgeon told me that he had been called by a man who owned a herd of cows from which he sold milk to the public. One of the cows was sick and he gave it a cursory examination. From what he could detect, he thought it had tuberculosis. He wanted to submit it to the test but the owner would not consent because he was afraid that if the veterinary surgeon discovered that it was affected with tuberculosis the whole herd might be slaughtered and the man would suffer a heavy loss. This is a serious matter and it was my intention to visit the minister at his office and ask him the question I have just put to him. Is it not time that the Government should see to it that all owners of cattle who sell milk to the public should have their herds inspected? Ther - is nothing that compels this man, to whom I have referred, to have his cows inspected. His cows may be tuberculous and yet he is allowed to continue selling milk to the public. This should not be done.

Topic:   ANIMAL CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACT AMENDMENT
Permalink
?

Mr. MOTHER WELL@

I do not know whether the hen. gentleman was in the Chamber the other evening when I spoke on the budget, but I outlined what I thought should be the object of the Department of Agriculture in the way of development

during the next few years. Among the various things I mentioned I referred to the extension of the accredited herd system. I suggested the acquirement of certain blocks of territory in three or four municipalities where we might have herds kept, cleaning up those areas entirely before starting on others. I instanced two particular cases where this might be tried to advantage because of the natural boundaries of the territories. These were Prince Edward Island on the east and Vancouver island on the west. In these two places the system might be tried with splendid results. We have an application from the province of Manitoba, where a certain number of municipalities have already petitioned that we adopt this plan. But if we adopt the plan I will have to come back here and ask for an estimate of about a million and a half dollars. If you are prepared to provide that money, I am prepared to spend it, but you cannot do things like that and still keep on objecting about sales taxes and the other taxes.

Topic:   ANIMAL CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACT AMENDMENT
Permalink
PRO

Harry Leader

Progressive

Mr. LEADER:

Does the minister not think that it would be a good plan and in the interests of this nation if we took about $1,000,000 off the military estimates and spent that amount on the eradication of tuberculosis? An hon. member on the other side wonders if this is compulsory or voluntary. Of course, it is not compulsory yet, but I think it should be. The attitude of the public toward this disease is deplorable. As an indication of the extent to which the disease prevails, I quote the following from a statement by Dr. Schaffner, president of the Anti-Tuberculosis League of Canada, made in Toronto last summer:

I repeat further a sentence from my address of last year. Devastating war took a heavy toll from our young manhood. 1914 to 1918 about 40,000 Canadian soldiers were killed in action.

I assume he did not take into account the ones who died of wounds or disease.

During the same period 43,000 died of tuberculosis in Canada.

While 40,000 soldiers were killed in France and Flanders, 43,000 died at home of tuberculosis, and the nation thought nothing of it. The death rate from this cause in Canada is about 10,000 a year. I repeat that we should take off a few million dollars from the militia estimates and spend the money in the eradication of this dread disease.

Topic:   ANIMAL CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACT AMENDMENT
Permalink
CON

Simon Fraser Tolmie

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. TOLMIE:

We all recognize the great importance of any work having in view the eradication of tuberculosis, but I

Animal Contagious Diseases

would point out the necessity for great caution in moving along these lines. An attempt was made to eradicate this disease in the state of New York, hut it was finally abandoned. Similar efforts were made in Massachusetts and in Illinois. It was estimated in Minnesota some years ago that in that state alone it would cost $35,000,000 to make a real start in the eradication of tuberculosis. The work that has been commenced here should be carried on. We have started properly by creating centres which are free from tuberculosis. In British Columbia this work has been carried on perhaps longer than in any other part of Canada. We found there that in districts where people opposed the testing of their herds, as soon as some of the prominent breeders had their herds cleaned up the others would fall in line, and now whole districts are as free from the disease as it has been possible to make them under present conditions. Nobody is more enthusiastic than I am about the desirability of cleaning up the herds of Canada, but I would like to point out the necessity for moving very cautiously.

Topic:   ANIMAL CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACT AMENDMENT
Permalink
PRO

John Alexander Wallace

Progressive

Mr. WALLACE:

Would the minister

feel like venturing an opinion as to what percentage of cattle in Canada have been found to be affected by tuberculosis?

Topic:   ANIMAL CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACT AMENDMENT
Permalink

June 9, 1922