April 21, 1922

LIB

William Richard Motherwell (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. MOTHERWELL:

The agricultural

instruction vote is passed.

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CON

Donald Sutherland

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. SUTHERLAND:

But the vote

covering the operations of Mr. Duncan Marshall is not passed. When he arrives in Patagonia possibly we shall have a better idea of what we are voting this money for. How manyi pure bred sires were distributed by the Department of Agriculture during the past year? I would like the information by provinces.

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LIB

William Richard Motherwell (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. MOTHERWELL:

In 1921, 27 bulls were distributed in British Columbia, at a cost of $4,910. I hope that is satisfactory to my hon. friend from Victoria City (Mr. Tolmie). I think I should receive some assistance from him during this terrible ordeal; I have always stood by him in a crisis like this.

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CON

Simon Fraser Tolmie

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. TOLMIE:

The hon. gentleman was not here last year; I was alone.

Supply-Interior

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LIB

William Richard Motherwell (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. MOTHERWELL:

That is a great

relief to me; misery likes company. But to proceed with the statistics: in Alberta, 1.04 bulls were distributed at a cost of $19,980; in Saskatchewan, 113 were distributed, at a cost of $22,090 and in Manitoba, 88, costing $15,340. Ontario seems to have been discriminated against, having received only 31, costing $5,550, while Quebec received 73, costing $11,825. This matter will have to be looked into. New Brunswick did not receive any, and only 5 went to Nova Scotia, atf a cost of $435. Here we have the province which sent to Parliament the "solid sixteen" getting only 5, as against Saskatchewan, with only one Liberal representative, getting 113. Surely there is something wrong; I do not wonder that my hon. friend asks questions. Prince Edward Island received 2, at a cost of $290. None of these animals seem to have found their way to the Yukon.

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CON

Donald Sutherland

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. SUTHERLAND:

Would the minister give us the number of stallions distributed in the different provinces?

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LIB

William Richard Motherwell (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. MOTHERWELL:

No stallions were distributed.

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Item agreed to. Department of the Interior-Geodetic Survey of Canada-Investigations, reconnaissance, triangulations, precise levelling, topographical work and geodetic astronomy, etc., $325,000.


CON

Hugh Guthrie

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. GUTHRIE:

There is just one observation I would like to make on this item. It brings up a question that has had some consideration from the House at former sessions, namely whether it would not be well to combine the surveys work and the map work of the various departments in a single department. This work is now being done by four or five different departments, and I am satisfied that there is a great duplication of effort and of expense. Quite an elaborate system is maintained in the Department of Public Works, and there is this fairly elaborate system in the Department of the Interior. Then there is also a branch of the Militia Department which maintains a very highly qualified staff of (expert engineers and surveyors. I think that in still another department there is a similar staff. I am told that in the United States all this work is being done under the War Department by the trained officers, engineers and draughtsmen of that department, and I believe the same thing could be done here with a great saving of expense, and I think probably with better results from the

point of view of uniformity than we are obtaining at the present time. The Royal Military College, which is maintained very largely at the expense of this Government, turns out annually a very capable body of engineers and scientific draughtsmen. Many of them go into the militia and their services could be made available by any department of the Government. I am satisfied that if the new minister would take that matter up and consult with his colleagues he could evolve a scheme, and bring it to Parliament for the next session, which would do away with a great deal of the duplication of these services which has been going on for thirty or forty years. I only bring the matter before the committee at the present time for the purpose of directing the attention of the minister to this work. I am satisfied there is a possibility of making great economies in this service and that better work will result for the Government.

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Item agreed to. International Boundaries. Expenses connected with the survey and demarcation of International Boundaries, including $1,000 to J. J. McArthur as International Boundary Commissioner, $35,680.


PRO

Edward Joseph Garland

Progressive

Mr. GARLAND (Bow River):

What is the nature of this work?

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LIB

Charles A. Stewart (Minister of Immigration and Colonization; Minister of Mines; Minister of the Interior; Superintendent-General of Indian Affairs)

Liberal

Hon. CHARLES STEWART (Argen-teuil, Minister of the Interior):

This

branch deals with the demarcation of the boundaries between Canada and the United States under the direction of the joint commission composed of two commissioners appointed respectively by His Majesty and the Government of United States. The work has practically been completed. The money asked for is required to compile data for the joint reports, the preparation of maps, and resurveying and the resetting of monuments in various places.

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PRO

Edward Joseph Garland

Progressive

Mr. GARLAND (Bow River) :

It seems a large sum of money to expend for simply the compilation of data and the arrangement of monuments. However, the minister says the work is practically completed. Is it the minister's intention to continue the work this year?

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LIB

Charles A. Stewart (Minister of Immigration and Colonization; Minister of Mines; Minister of the Interior; Superintendent-General of Indian Affairs)

Liberal

Mr. STEWART (Argenteuil):

I am informed that as soon as the work is completed the whole thing ceases. I have a detailed statement dealing with the monuments set up from the lake of the Woods to the western coast, and with the survey work on the St. Croix river, New Brunswick. Once the work is completed there

Supply-Interior

will be no further expenditure in connection with it.

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Item agreed to. Government of the Yukon Territory, $160,000.


PRO

Arthur John Lewis

Progressive

Mr. LEWIS:

Will the minister tell us why there is an increase of $30,000 in two of the items comprised in this vote?

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LIB

Charles A. Stewart (Minister of Immigration and Colonization; Minister of Mines; Minister of the Interior; Superintendent-General of Indian Affairs)

Liberal

Mr. STEWART (Argenteuil) :

In the

first item, of $65,000, there is an increase of $30,000 as compared with the Main Estimates of 1921-22. A number of changes, including the consolidation of certain positions, were contemplated when the Estimates for 1921-22 were prepared, and the vote was reduced from $70,000 to $35,000. As the changes did not take effect it was impossible to pay the expenses of administration with the sum of $35,000, and a Governor General's warrant for $25,000 additional was obtained, making a total of $60,000 for 1921-22. It may be that this last sum will not be quite sufficient to pay the expenses for that year, and the payment of some of the accounts will no doubt have to be carried into the fiscal year 192223. At any rate, the gold commissioner recommends that a vote of $65,000 be obtained. That sum is required to pay salaries, living allowances and expenses connected with travelling, insane patients, printing and stationery, advertising, etc. I may say I have gone over these and I will read them for the benefit of the committee; most of them appear reasonable.

Amount required for salaries is.. .. $21,660

Amount for living allowance 15,900

Insane patients, expenses connected with transportation to and maintenance in the insane hospital, the Provincial Mental Hospital at New Westminster, B.C., also for maintenance in the Royal Northwest Mounted Police barracks at Dawson

and White Horse f4,500

Travelling expenses of outside officials to and from Dawson and in the territory 2,000

Printing and stationery 1,500

Expenses connected with the collection of export tax by Royal Canadian Northwest Mounted Police officers. 1,000 They receive 50 cents a day while on that special duty.

To pay commission of 10 per cent to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police officials on sums collected by them

as mining recorders, mining inspectors and Crown timber and land

agents 1,000

To pay legal expenses not included in

Vote for costs of litigation 1,000

Miscellaneous: Freight and express

charges, telegrams, telephones, postage and unforeseen expenses 6,440

Total $65,000

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CON

Hugh Guthrie

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. GUTHRIE:

The only observation

that I have to make is this, I understand the population of the Yukon has very rapidly decreased in recent years, and one would expect that the cost of government would decrease accordingly. Last year the vote was only $45,000 for all this service, and a Governor General's warrant became necessary for an additional $25,000, which would make the total amount of last year $60,000. I think I am safe in saying that there are fewer people in the territory than there were last year, btit the vote now asked for is $65,000, notwithstanding that last year we were able to get through with $60,000. I think the committee would expect the amount for the coming year to be decreased $5,000 or $10,000 rather than increased by $5,000. Of the amount, $21,000 goes for salaries and $15,000 for allowances. The balance is made up largely of grants for maintenance of institutions for the insane, and the like, to which no great exception can be taken. But surely as time goes on this vote for salaries and allowances should be decreased. I think the minister should content himself this year with what he spent last year, namely $60,000. That would look reasonable to me.

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LIB

Charles A. Stewart (Minister of Immigration and Colonization; Minister of Mines; Minister of the Interior; Superintendent-General of Indian Affairs)

Liberal

Mr. STEWART (Argenteuil):

In all probability the objection is well taken, and it is possible that we may get along without that $5,000. If it is possible, I intend to adopt the suggestion made by some of the officials of the department, that an amalgamation of offices shall take place, and probably we can make a larger saving. But the committee will readily understand that one who has recently come into the department would hardly venture to make drastic cuts and expect to carry them out, not knowing just exactly what he might be up against in connection with this saving. The revenues are expected to be in the neighbourhood of $154,000 and we are practically within the revenue in our expenditure. I am not advancing that as a claim for the $65,000 vote by any means, because I agree with the objection taken by my hon. friend, that if an amalgamation of officials took place the cost of government could be reduced; but there is some revenue still coming out of the Yukon territory, and I have discovered a persistent demand for road construction to enable the people engaged in mining to get out the products of the mine. I hope we can present a much reduced estimate on this head next year, when I have had time to

Supply-Interior

investigate. No more money will be spent than is absolutely necessary during the coming year.

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CON

Hugh Guthrie

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. GUTHRIE:

I am sure the committee is glad of the assurance of the minister in that respect, and I feel sure that he will see that not a dollar more than is necessary will be spent. But the principle upon which Parliament votes money is that an estimate is made, having regard to all the circumstances, of as exact an amount as it is possible to arrive at. That additional $5,000 or $10,000 will have to be obtained by the Minister of Finance by taxing the people of Canada. If the money is not going to be required, and there is a strong probability that it will not be required, it should not be voted. There is another principle that always obtains in voting supply in this House, and I think in every Parliament, namely that we should not vote amounts in excess of actual requirements leaving it to the discretion of the minister or of his department either to spend or not to spend it as they see fit. As a rule, if the moneys are voted, they are spent. Parliament, therefore, should take care, in the first instance, that only actual requirements are covered by the vote. I sympathize with the minister. He has not been very long in his department, and I believe he will apply thoroughly economic methods in the administration of this branch of his department. The revenue is $154,000. The cost of governing the Yukon this year is going to be about $160,000. We are proposing an additional expenditure of some $20,000 on roads. We are not getting much out of it. It may be a necessary expenditure for the miners there. If they are getting all the benefits from it, it might not be unreasonable to make the expenditure on the roads.

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April 21, 1922