April 4, 1922

PRO

Thomas Alexander Crerar

Progressive

Mr. CRERAR:

The principle underlying the resolution that is now before the Committee has been pretty fully explained by the Minister of Militia, and further elaborated in the debate which has taken place. With this principle, which is that the different defence arms of Canada should be united under one control and direction, I am in hearty sympathy. I think such a step is in the right direction. It has several things to commend it. In the first place if it is necessary-and I am not among those who believe that it is not the duty of a country to provide for its own defence-[DOT] if it is necessary to provide for defence, a

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unification of the arms of defence, particularly in a country like Canada, should lend itself to efficiency in control and in operation. That is my first point. In the second place the step that the minister proposes to take, as outlined in this resolution, should bring' about a greater efficiency with greater economy; and that certainly is to be desired at the present time.

As to the details of the bill in respect to the status of deputy ministers and other officials now in these departments, that is a matter that can, of course, be much better discussed when we are considering the measure clause by clause. There is one point, however, on which I find myself in general agreement with the position taken by the leader of the Opposition (Mr. Meighen), and that is in respect to the inclusion of the control of the Mounted Police in this measure, in the amalgamation that it is sought to bring about. Either the Mounted Police is a defence arm or it is not. If it is intended for purposes of defence, then by all means it should be included in the proposed co-ordination or amalgamation; but if it is intended for an arm of defence why do we need it at all? We do not require it for that purpose; we have enough scope in the Militia law for the provision of defence without creating an additional arm for that purpose. On the other hand, if the Mounted Police is a civil force, and it certainly has been a civil force, intended for the administration of civil law, then I submit it is not sound policy to include it with the arms that have to do with defence. I am among those who believe that the administration of civil law and the maintenance of civil order should be kept away as far as possible from that relating to the defence of the country-I think that is a sound principle upon which to proceed. I am a little bit doubtful also of the wisdom of including the Canadian Mounted Police in the coordination as suggested because of the fear that the association of that splendid force with the arms of the service that have to do with the defence of the country, may create a wrong impression in the public mind, and may create a wrong impression altogether in the mind of the force itself in relation to its public duty. I take second place to none in this House, or out of it, in my regard for the distinguished service that the Northwest Mounted Police-the forerunners of the present body-gave this country. They have a very distinguished place in our history and a very distinguished record. I believe I am on record as expressing a doubt as to the wisdom of creat-

ing the Royal Canadian Mounted Police as we have it at the present time. I think the step taken in converting the Mounted Police into the present organization was one of very doubtful wisdom. After all, the maintenance of civil law and order is a function that belongs to the provinces. Why then should there be any attempt to create a Canadian police force for this purpose? In the olden days, in the large unorganized territories in western Canada, it was absolutely essential to have this police force, which was created in the days of the Mackenzie government for a specific purpose. In those days the force rendered admirable service to western Canada. But to take the position now that we must have a federal police force, with headquarters in the Capital city of the Dominion, sending its officers and constables into all parts of Canada, has no justification either on financial grounds or for reasons of utility. Consequently I am favourable to this idea-that recognizing as I do the splendid traditions of the force, recognizing the admirable service it has rendered to Canada in the past, the time has come when this force might very well be discontinued excepting in so far as it is necessary to police the territory in Canada that still remains unorganized. For that reason I trust the Government may be able to give consideration to the suggestion made that the Mounted Police, at any rate, or such of it as we may retain, should not be included under the administration of the Militia Department that has to do purely with matters of defence. I think that is a sound principle to adopt in relation to this matter.

Let me say again, Mr. Chairman, that I cordially support the principle of the bill. I think it is a step in the right direction, because it will make for greater efficiency, or should do so, and will at the same time make for greater economy. I trust the Government may be able to give consideration to the suggestions advanced in connection with the Mounted Police. I for one would be very glad indeed if the Government could see its way clear-

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?

An hon. MEMBER:

To get rid of it.

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PRO

Thomas Alexander Crerar

Progressive

Mr. CRERAR:

No. I shall not say get rid of the force, but at any rate to reduce its personnel to what is necessary to police the unorganized territory of Canada.

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LIB

George Perry Graham (Minister of Militia and Defence; Minister of the Naval Service)

Liberal

Mr. GRAHAM:

I am very much pleased with the reception the committee have given to this proposed legislation. I do not make any great claim to be the origi-

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nator of this suggestion; but a suggestion that is only originated and never acted upon does not get us anywhere. I think I may say that I am the first minister who brought in a concrete proposition dealing with this subject.

I concur in what my hon. friend from South Wellington (Mr. Guthrie) said with respect to the military officers he named; and in discussing the question of the militia of Canada we ought to remember one thing-that the men who now hold these offices largely went to war from the volunteer forces of Canada on their own volition and were advanced in rank, some of them from the rank of captain, to the positions they now hold. We therefore do owe them respect, and we ought to take advantage of their experience, so far as we possibly can, when they are willing to give us that experience. That is the way I feel about it. I am not an enemy of the militia of Canada-not by any means; I have reason to be otherwise-but what I I do want to accomplish if I possibly can, and I think we all have it in mind, is to have a well organized, snappy, defence force that will be a credit to Canada without being too expensive.

Now as to the officers mentioned by my hon. friend and the*law pertaining to them, I may say that one of the gentlemen who have retired has been given more than a year's leave of absence by the Government which proves that the law touching this matter exists and that the Government has the power to do such a thing so far as the militia is concerned. I want to say further that as regards Sir Henry Burstall he is one of the men who brought distinction to Canada every time he was called upon to take a stand for the good name of the country not only at home but on the battlefield. General Gwatkin, one of the generals who has been retired, came from Great Britain and during the war rendered Canada great service by reason of his experience and his advice. I tell the House now that under the existing act the Government thought it fair to give General Gwatkin one year's leave of absence. So far as Commissioner Perry is concerned, he is one of the great men of this country. He asked to be retired the first week I was here, I think, giving good reasons, but remained on for a while. The Government, acting on its right under the statute, has given Commissioner Perry one year's leave of absence. Consequently, no matter what my confreres of the press may

say, there can be no successor appointed for one year, because Mr. Perry will draw the salary for this year. The suggestion made by some hon. members in regard to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police is certainly worthy of consideration. The object of the Government and of the Militia Department was not at all to make soldiers of the Mounted Police, but we thought that, for convenience and economy, that department lent itself more readily than any other department to the combination of the executive or accounting forces of the different departments. That is the only object, and the matter is worth consideration and discussion. The question has been raised as to the amalgamation of the Northwest Mounted police. That force was established in 1874, and performed the work that no other body of men could have performed, and whether people assembled in small numbers or in vast crowds throughout the western territory, one or two of these mounted police were able to maintain order where, perhaps, the ordinary policeman could not have done so, even if there were a dozen policemen present. No person has a higher regard than I have for the work done by that grand body of men in the years gone by. But the leader of the Progressive party (Mr. Crerar) called attention to one phase of the matter that is worthy of thought. Has the time arrived when the Northwest Mounted Police, or the Royal Canadian Mounted Police as they are called now, should be reduced and the responsibility placed on the provinces for the maintaining of order? I have been in communication with the various provinces in this respect, and personally I am of the opinion that, whilst there are services to be carried on yet by the federal authority which probably could not be carried on well by the provinces, speaking in the main the provincial authorities are responsible for maintaining order within their several areas. There still exists unorganized territory to which the application of federal authority cannot be questioned. The Dominion Police, I think, were organized away back in 1846, and they have carried on their work splendidly. Their work included what we might call secret service work all over the Dominion of Canada, and it was not confined alone to eastern Canada. If I were not a member of a government, and were sitting somewhere else, I might express the personal opinion that I think the secret service of Canada ought to be under the Minister of Justice. It seems to be along the line of his work rather

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than the Miiitia Department, and I am free to confess that the Government would be advised by me to take into consideration the advisability of handing that part of the Royal Mounted Police work over to the Justice Department, rather than have it under the Militia Department. I assure hon. gentlemen that this bill is meant to carry out just what I have indicated. When we are in committee I will be glad to have both sides of the House help to make the bill as perfect as possible. What we want is the best defence force that we can get at as little expense as possible, all with keeping in mind that no country is fully equipped as a nation that has not an armed force of some kind.

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LAB

James Shaver Woodsworth

Labour

Mr. WOODSWORTH:

I would like to endorse the suggestion made by the hon. gentleman from Marquette (Mr. Crerar). Those of us who have been old-timers in the Canadian Northwest will recognize the splendid work which the Mounted Police performed in the early days. Some of us who have been on the plains know the work that they did in connection with the cattle thieves and the Indians, I venture to say that in the last few years we have witnessed a complete transformation of the activities of that force, and I would go so far as to say that I doubt very much, indeed, whether the honour which was once attached to that force is maintained to-day. Speaking as a representative of labour, I believe that there is no other organization that causes so much friction in our communities as the Northwest Mounted Police. Perhaps, that is rather a serious charge to make, but since the whole matter is under consideration with a view to re-organization, possibly this is the time when it should be discussed. The Mounted Police to-day are no longer the "riders of the plains" that we used to hear about. To a very considerable extent they are reduced to the position of being a secret service department. I might say they are a very large spending department; last year they cost almost $4,000,000-to be accurate, the expense was $3,927,798.82. Some of these items are of very special interest to those concerned with industry. I notice that, not only are amounts spent for the police themselves and their activities, but amounts are paid to outside people and to agencies. In the criminal investigation branch the expenditures are as follows-

Services and expenses of special agents, $87,236.14.

We are not told who those agents are-

Employers' Detective Agencies, Services and expenses of operators. . $5,608 00 Pinkerton's Detective Agency, Services and expenses of operators.. 2,412 15 The Thiel Detective Service Company, Services and expenses of operators 1,473 92

About $100,000 has been spent on those items alone, for which no details are given. I learn from the report that the services of the Mounted Police have been used for spying upon labour activities. Among the expenses of the members of the force in various investigations at Toronto we find-

O.B.U. Activities $ 234 62

O.B.U. Labour Unrest at Winnipeg.. 2,173 3C

Then an expenditure at Regina. Another

item for duty altogether outside this country was:

Special duty at Boston and Springfield $ 190 70

Investigating Bolshevistic and labour

conditions 3,380 40

Expenses at Prince Albert, agitators

and suspects 49 55

Lumber Workers' Industrial Union of

the O.B.U 356 10

Expenses at Edmonton, attending

the Labour Church

4 00Bolshevist and Labour conditions.. 22 10At Lethbridge, attending a labourmeeting

700Agitators and suspects

31 75

At Vancouver, attending labour

meetings

18 86Self Determination League

328 80

I suppose this last was the meeting which Lindsay Crawford held in Vancouver, and which was broken up by a gang of rowdies. So the report goes on down the line. It would seem that there is an atmosphere of suspicion throughout the entire report. The Police have been conjuring up all sorts of hobgoblins, and then proceeding to say that when they arrive on the scene, by their moral influence everything evil vanishes. It is rather a serious thing when we undertake to employ detective agencies, and even to employ American detective companies to keep up a system of close espionage upon labour movements. About a year ago there was issued a very close study of the American spy system-and remember three of these firms whose names I have given are American firms. These are some of the instructions that were given to a spy:

We want you to stir up as much bad feeling as you possibly can between the Italians and the Serbians. Spread data among the Serbians that the Italians are going back to work. Call up every question you can In reference to racial hatred between these two nationalities.

I am quoting from a series of articles by Sidney Howard, Investigator for Dr. Rich-

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ard Cabot, now Professor of Social Ethics in Harvard University. Again the spy says:

I was expressly told by Russell's general manager, Burgett, to try and get the pickets to cause as much trouble as possible so that Russell agency could keep its men on the job for as long a time as possible. I also was sent by Russell to Marinette to work in .... Lumber Company, X worked in the plant as general handy man around the yard. My particular work was to join the union and watch the men and report any labour agitation or activity.

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LIB

George Newcombe Gordon (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Liberal

The CHAIRMAN:

The quotations which the hon. member is making dealing with matters arising in a foreign country and with regard to the administration of order there, are hardly relevant to the question which is being discussed in the committee now, namely, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police.

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LAB

James Shaver Woodsworth

Labour

Mr. WOODSWORTH:

I bow to your

decision. I quoted these extracts because American detective firms were being employed in Canada, and I take it that the same methods which they employed in the United States were being employed in Canada. I should like, however, to deal with conditions in Canada. We had a keen industrial dispute several years ago, and we know the part which the Mounted Police took at that time throughout the country. Perhaps, I might be permitted to quote an affidavit produced in Montreal with regard to the type of work which was carried on there in searching houses. This work of searching houses was carried on from coast to coast, and this instance is one, amongst many, which was printed in one of the labor papers:

Province of Quebec,

District of Montreal,

Canada,

I, the undersigned Joseph Schubert, Secretary International Ladies' Garment Workers' Union, Montreal Locals, being duly sworn, depose and say:

(1) On the morning of July 1st, 1919, between the hours of 12.30 to 1.00 o'clock, 4 men in plain clothes and another in a police uniform visited my house for the purpose of searching same. On my request to let me see the warrant, they refused -to put same in my hands, but they permitted me to read same, as it was held by one of them. As I could not see my name mentioned in the warrant, I asked them to show me my name. To this I was answered that my name was not put in the warrant, that the warrant was general, and permitted them to visit and search any house they choose.

(2) The aforesaid men proceeded to search my house. My wife, who was in an advanced state of pregnancy, was ordered out of her bed, as well as my little child, who were frightened by the rough treatment they received by the aforesaid visitors, one of whom was drunk.

(3) After a thorough search, lasting half an hour, which brought particular hardship to my wife, the /fallowing books., periodicals* and things were removed by the aforesaid men:

The Statesman, a Liberal weekly paper.

A set of reproductions of paintings of Jesus Christ and prayers including "Our Father."

Socialism and the Great State, a book by H. G. Wells.

The Liberator, single copy, a journal purchased at any newstand.

A book by Heinrich Heine.

A book by F. Lasale.

American Labor Year Book.

Three memoirs on the Roumanian Jewish question.

Two personal letters.

Two copies of The I. L. G. W. Trade Journal.

And I have signed,

Joseph Schubert.

Sworn before me at Montreal, this 22nd day of July, 1919.

L. Tannenbaum, J.P.

That is an example of the searching of houses, and I think hon. members can understand the feeling of labour men from coast to coast when they and their wives are subjected to indignities of this character. I would call attention to the case of one man, who is still in the employ of the Mounted Police and who, according to the report has been transferred to Montreal- Corporal Zaneth. We had some knowledge of the kind of work which he did shortly after, or about, the time of the Winnipeg general strike. One paragraph from the report of his cross-examination at that time is as follows. This is a summary; I could give the original, if necessary:

In direct examination, witness told the court that he had joined the police in 1917, enlisting so that he could go overseas with them. Physical disability prevented this, so he was given work in Canada. He wras an Italian by birth and was later naturalised as a Canadian citizen. On September 12, 1918, he was detailed to work amongst the miners at Drumheller, Alberta. Shortly after his arrival there he had joined the Socialist Party of Canada. He named the officials of the party in Alberta. So keenly had he worked there that he was elected Vice President of the Federal Labour Workers.

For a considerable period he had distributed literature and also sold some of it at

Cross-examined by Mr. Bonnar, Corporal Zaneth told of his early life, saying that he was born in the northern part of Italy. He had changed his name only once, which was when he was out in Alberta. The name he assumed then was Harry Blask. He had signed an obligation when he joined the Socialist Party of Canada. He admitted that while he was out there, he had told lots of lies as he was only following his instructions.

Mr. Bonnar: Did your Officer Commanding tell you to tell lies?

Witness: No, he did not.

Mr. Bonnar: You weren't following his instructions then?

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Witness: I certainly wasn't going to tell those people I was a Mounted Policeman.

Here we have a ease in which a corporal of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police be-' came an "agent provacateur," actually selling literature which he knew to be banned. Are we, as a Canadian people, reduced to the position, that we have to adopt the methods of "agents provocateurs?" I should like to assure this House that, in labour circles, when any man stands up in a meeting and begins to talk violence, he is immediately susipected by the labour people of being a spy. That is the kind of thing that is going on, and there are to-day in the ranks of labour, men who are recognized as outstanding radicals who are in close touch with such men as Corporal Zaneth.

The result is that the whole labour movement is permeated by this system of espionage, and also by a sense of suspicion. People are arrested, we do not know why. We cannot tell whether they are simply expressing their radical notions in order to get others into trouble. I should like to read one other passage closely relating to the Winnipeg trials, because it shows that evidence was really purchased at that time. That is going still further than the work of the agent provocateur.

A bench warrant to bring Daskaluk into court was applied for and issued by the judge. The copies of letters filed in court by Mr. Bird are as follows:

I think these letters explain themselves. They are from the relief officials of Winnipeg and Vancouver.

530 Gambie St., Vancouver, B.C November 4, 1919.

G. B. Clark, Esq., Secy. Social Service Committee, Winnipeg, Man.

Dear Sir,-Re Daskaluk, 688 Linden Ave., Winnipeg, Man. This man, his wife and infant child, three weeks old, Ukrainians, are destitute and a public charge in this city. He states he was sent here by the Provincial Government, as his life was in danger in Winnipeg on account of evidence which he gave against Almazoff in recent trials at Winnipeg. Formerly he had been a special agent of the R.N.W.M.P. I have wired Col. Stearns, O.C., R.N.W.M.P. who is said to have paid transportation to this city A former promise of $500.00 and transportation to his own country was not carried out for the alleged pretext that Ukrania was now at war and this man could not enter his country. He states that he has only received $150.00 of the $500.00 promised him. I have read the evidence as contained in the newspapers which he gave and there is absolutely nothing in any of his statements that would endanger his personal safety. I expect the R.N.W.M.P., to provide transportation through their local commanding officer for this man and his wife to return at once to your city,

if his statements are correct. Will you be good enough to investigate his statements especially with Col. Stearns, with Mr. Andrews, the prosecutor for the province, and his brother who lives at 256 Austin Street. Thanking you in advance,

Yours sincerely,

Geo. D. Ireland,

Relief Officer.

To which there came the following reply after investigation.

November 13, 1919.

Geo. D. Ireland, Esq.,

530 Gambie St.,

Vancouver, B.C.

Dear Sir,-Re H. Daskaluk, 688 Linden Ave., your letter 4th inst. to hand and owing to the writer being sick reply was delayed. I called on Col. Stearns of the Royal North West Mounted Police who told me that this man gave evidence for the crown, and was promised $500, and he states that as soon as the case is finished they will give him the balance. As your letter states, he has received $150 and his transportation to Vancouver. Col. Stearns told me that he wired to the officer commanding the Royal North West Mounted Police in Vancouver to advance Mr. Daskaluk $100. I also called to see Mr. Daskaluk's brother at 256 Austin Street, but was not able to see him as he is working on the railroad, and comes in but once a week, and owing to the big snow storm we have had in Manitoba, all the trains are held up and we do not know when he will be in. I further found that Mr. Daskaluk was never a resident of the city, but of East Kildonan, Man. Trusting this will be satisfactory, I am, Yours truly1,

B. Zeglinski,

Agent, (B.Z.M.H.).

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LIB
LAB

James Shaver Woodsworth

Labour

Mr. WOODSWORTH:

I am not sure.

This gentleman was the agent of the Social Welfare Department of the city of Winnipeg. Now, in the report of the Northwest Mounted Police a good deal is made of the alleged fact that the good humour and tact of the Mounted Police have done much to avoid friction. Well, I have one other quotation which I want to read in this connection. It will show that, instead of avoiding friction, the presence of these men is often a decided irritant. I read from a copy of the Winnipeg Telegram of June 21, 1919:

Serious Turmoil this Afternoon Almost Certain

"Mounties" Resent Statements That They Are "Yellow Dogs"-Soldier-Strikers Insist They Will Parade This Afternoon and Authorities Are Just as Determined They Will Not.

Five hundred Royal Northwest Mounted Police are under orders to disperse any parades which may attempt to march on the streets of Winnipeg to-day.

Every "Mountie" is a returned soldier. They will be armed with revolvers and swords. They are in an excellent mood to cope with the situa-

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tion. Remarks made by strikers at their gatherings to the effect that the "Royal North West Mounted Police" were "Yellow Dogs" has raised the ire of the Mounted Police and they stand doubly determined to take nothing from persons who attempt to break the law this afternoon.

The order for the Royal North West Mounted Police to maintain law and order in Winnipeg came from Hon. N. W. Rowell, President of the Privy Council, to Commissioner Perry.

In a kaleidoscopic change in the strike situation last night confident hopes of an early and peaceful settlement gave way to a condition which to-day heralds a crisis of the first magnitude.

Those of us who were at all closely in touch with the situation at that time know, as can be borne out by the member for South Winnipeg (Mr. Hudson), who was one of those who kept the channels of communication open between the provincial government and the men, that there would in all probability have been a peaceful settlement of the Winnipeg strike had the Mounted Police not been ordered out at that time. Their presence incensed the curious crowd that gathered on the streets and precipitated the trouble. One of the most serious facts in the labour situation is the constant surveillance which labour men, as such, are forced to endure. I should not like to suggest how many thousands of dollars I have cost Canada in having the police trail me around. I want to make that very clear; possibly I was worth watching. But the things I am saying to-day are the very things for which I was trailed, and my fellow-citizens in Winnipeg have very clearly given their verdict as to what they think of this sort of business. I r'emember a few instances particularly. Before I threw myself into the labour movement I could hardly credit this kind of thing. I remember addressing one night a meeting of labour people, and the next morning an officer of the Mounted Police came to my home and asked me to go to his office. You speak about this as a civil police force. Well, when I entered that office I found everything exactly as though it were a military tribunal. There an effort was made to persuade or intimidate me into either retracting my statements or pledging myself not to make similar statements to the people. I was trying to plead for decency and good order in this country, and to prevent the occasions of strife which are so frequently occurring. I remember speaking at a little town in southern Saskatchewan. The local clergyman was chairman of the meeting, and

everything was conducted in perfect good order. But the next day after I left, the local clergyman was subjected to all sorts of indignities at the hands of the local Mounted Police officer. The clergyman happened to have been born in England. We had to tell the Mounted Police officer when he came over to this country, whether he had any connection with the Reds, and Labour, and all the rest of it. A few days later I happened to be addressing a class in political economy in the University of Saskatchewan, and the Mounted Police tried to discover what was going on inside the class room. It was too much for the editor of the local newspaper who reported the address, and he had to reprimand the police and ask what right they had to enter the class rooms of our universities to find out what was being taught. I can remember another occasion at Nanaimo, where a police officer deliberately attempted to draw me into a dispute and to provoke me into saying something that, I presume, he thought would be of service to him.

We have heard about the way in which the Mounted Police have backed up the provincial authorities. I can refer the House to a little industrial dispute in southern Saskatchewan, at Bienfait, where there was next to a clash between the provincial police and the Mounted Police-perhaps I should scarcely go that far, but I know relations were very much strained between the two groups-and the whole country was filled with spies and policemen.

Now, I ask hon. members if we are going to establish good working relations in this country by the presence of a body of men of this character, doing detective work and acting as spies, as agents provocateur,- actually, according to this information, paying for evidence, and on the slightest provocation being ready to "protect" law and order, although, as appeared from the reports, in practice their actions precipitated trouble?

Coming definitely to the question that we have before us, I submit that when reorganization is being discussed we should seriously consider whether we need to continue a force of this character. And I should like to urge what I intend to bring forward a resolution, but as the question has come up I mention it now. I contend that the activities of the Mounted Police should be confined to the unorganized territories, and that each province should be left to administer its own civil affairs.

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CON

Arthur Meighen (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MEIGHEN:

I have already spoken on the point directly relevant to the resolu-

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tion, as to whether the Mounted Police should come under the Militia Department; but, whatever is done with this resolution, it does seem to me that what should be the composition and the extent and scope of the work of the Mounted Police has some pertinence as a matter of administration.

I gather from the remarks of the hon. member for Marquette (Mr. Crerar) that he feels it was a mistake to extend the work of the Mounted Police beyond the unorganized territories, and particularly to encompass within the same force the Mounted Police and the Dominion Police. If I have rightly interpreted his conclusions, I am sorry that I can not agree with either one. I do not know whether, first of all, the Mounted Police did confine their activities to the unorganized districts. I am quite ready to accept the statement that they were formed for the purpose of taking care of law and order in the large unorganized portion of Canada at that time; but though they may have for the time being confined themselves to those areas, nevertheless their work was continued and even extended after those districts became erected to the full status of provinces. Not only was it continued, but I am confident that no hon. member would say that the Mounted Police should have been retired from Alberta or Saskatchewan or even Manitoba. I think the House will agree with me that we would have been flying in the face of the very plainest conclusions of the history of the last three decades had we effected such a retirement. Every one must also admit that within the last few years there have been reasons for maintaining the Mounted Police in those very provinces; and I would go further-though some might dispute me here-there was reason also for the use of the Mounted Police in the other provinces during the last six years.

The hon. member for Marquette was himself a member of the government when it was decided to incorporate the Mounted Police with the Dominion Police, not because we were anxious to send the Mounted Police anywhere, but because we felt we could not avoid the request of the local authorities, but must answer in the affirmative and add to the strength of the local force for the maintenance of order in great and perilous emergencies. That such emergencies existed in the three prairie provinces at more than one place during the past six years there can be no doubt; that such emergencies existed, indeed, before those years there can be no doubt. For

example, such an emergency existed two or three years ago in the city of Winnipeg. I do not want to seriously criticise any one, particularly any one who looks at this matter from a different angle-and there may be one or two hon. members who do-but would any hon. members opposite say that it was the duty of the government, three years ago, to decline the request of the local authorities for help when those authorities felt themselves unequal to the maintenance of law and order in the city of Winnipeg? If there was criticism at the time it would have been appropriate to introduce a resolution then condemning the conduct of the Government in that regard, but no such resolution was introduced, nor was there any serious criticism of the government either in this House or in the country. Consequently I think it will be generally admitted that there has been in highly organized districts-districts organized just as highly as the city of Montreal and the city of Toronto-reason for the cooperation of the federal authorities with the local authorities to overcome emergencies that, fortunately, very rarely arise in this country.

Then the question comes: Is it best in the interests of our country that there should be a federal civilian force applicable tc assist the local authorities under conditions when the latter feel themselves unequal to coping with the situation? Now, I agree very firmly with the hon. member for Marquette and with the Minister of Militia, that the responsibility for the maintenance of peace and law is provincial; not only so, but that it should be made fundamentally provincial. And I am against-perhaps more against than some of the acts of the late administration would indicate-the overlapping of activities. I am in favour of leaving the responsibility as the Constitution has left it, in the local authorities, to the utmost possible extent, as regards this and other subjects; and I am in favour of no more police interference than is absolutely essential to the fair and reasonable maintenance of law and order. But is it not true that we can maintain law and order at least expense by the maintenance of a civilian force of this kind- one that can be used anywhere as desired, but that will be sent only when there is a request for it by the local authorities as essential to the preservation of law and order? If not it will then fall upon the provinces not only to maintain such an ordinary force of local police as will take care of all oidin-

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ary situations, preserve law and order in the towns and villages and meet all emergencies that might ordinarily be expected but they will have to go further and prepare themselves against almost any contingency that might arise within their borders. There is no need to anticipate that we will need as large a force as in the past, but with a moderate-sized, mobile federal force that could be kept at one or two or three points, and whose services would be at the disposal, when requested, of the local authorities of any province, you could maintain law and order and take care of extraordinary situations much more cheaply than if you put that obligation, not upon one, but upon each and all of the whole nine provinces of Confederation.

Now as to the criticism that an error w^s made in amalgamating the Dominion Police with the Mounted Police, really I cannot see the force of that argument at all. We have no Dominion Police for the purpose of the general maintenance of law and order. We never had; we have none to-day. But we have always had a Dominion Police. What for? For the protection of our own federal buildings and our own property. The provinces are not obliged to protect our property; we protect our own; that is what the Dominion Police is for. The Dominion Police were, for the purpose of administration, joined to the Mounted Police, and all was described as the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and placed under the charge of Mr. Commissioner Perry. What objection can be taken to that, I do not know. I would certainly not be in favour of any extension of the responsibilities of the Dominion Police, nor would I be in favour of any further maintenance of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police than was essential to supplying a sort of civilian police reserve which might co-operate with the local police upon request of the local authorities, rather than that it should be essential to call instead upon the militia for that purpose. I think it is far better that a civilian reserve should be at the disposal upon request of the local authorities. Keep the police out to the last hour; let the police never go in at all, if you can; but it is far better that a civilian force should be at the disposal of the federal authorities available to answer a call locally should unfortunately that call come, and I ask the Government to consider carefully before they put it out of their power to answer any local call by sending a moderate-sized civilian force, and by putting it out of their power, make it essential

that the militia in case of any contingency shall be called on to operate instead.

I repeat, inasmuch as we are not now in the period we were in, inasmuch as there is not now as much likelihood of disturbance as there was during the period of the war and the period of demobilization that followed, it is undoubtedly possible that the strength of the force and the cost of operation could be reduced. Let that be done. To that I will offer no objection whatever, but I think there should be very serious consideration given before the operations of the Mounted Police in the organized parts of Canada should be entirely done away with. If you are only going to have the Mounted Police to take care of the needs of law and order in the Northwest Territories, you eliminate the Mounted Police almost altogether. I would not be in favour of that. I would be in favour of such reduction as the Government felt it was possible to make and still maintain a mobile police reserve with the reputation the Mounted Police have, for the purpose of answering these extraordinary contingencies that arise, and that probably will arise in the future as well.

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LIB

Thomas Vien

Liberal

Mr. VIEN:

Mr. Chairman, it is pleasant to hear so much said in commendation of the principle of the bill. The only criticism heard, if we can call it criticism, has been of a constructive nature with respect to exempting the Mounted Police from the amalgamation provided by the resolution.

There is one consideration to be added to those suggested by hon. members this afternoon, and it is that under our constitution the question of police is a provincial matter. So far as it is necessary to maintain a police force in an organized territory, I would leave it to the provincial authorities to look after it. So far as unorganized federal territory is concerned, the Mounted Police could be retained. I think everybody will agree with what has been said as to the high standing and fine reputation of the Mounted Police. The right hon. gentleman who has just taken his seat (Mr. Meighen), in speaking of retaining as strong a force of Mounted Police as possible, due regard being had to the exigencies of the service and the exigencies of the financial situation of the country, conveyed the idea that we should maintain the corps, in consideration of its activities in the past and the splendid services it has rendered to the country. I believe that we should maintain no such organization as a decoration, or as a souvenir. I think we should

National Defence

do away with the force as much as possible. The Mounted Police was organized mainly to maintain law and order in those territories which were not under provincial authority, and to my mind we should limit their activities to that field.

My right hon. friend also intimated that the amalgamation of the Mounted Police with the Department of Defence would lower their standing in the public opinion; I want to say that I am of a different opinion. It is casting a totally uncalled for aspersion on the militia of Canada to say that amalgamation with it will discredit the Mounted Police. The militia of Canada is composed of an army of citizens and I believe that as such it is a credit to the country. Certainly it should be no discredit to the Mounted Police to be amalgamated with it.

There is one other point. When there is a disturbance in any part of this country and the civilian authorities find it necessary to call the militia to their aid, preferably to the Mounted Police, I would call the local regiments of the militia, which are composed of citizens of the locality. They understand the mentality of the people of that community, and would be better able to cope with the situation than a police force from a distant part of the country, almost a stranger to the conditions with which it would have to deal.

I might give an instance in which this principle has found application. I suggest to the right hon. gentleman that when there was a disturbance in Quebec in 1918, and regiments were brought from Toronto, to march through our streets, post their machine guns on different corners and fire at peaceful citizens as they did, which in itself was a provocation to the people of that city, if the local regiments of the militia had been called out instead, as was recommended by General Landry in command of the district, bloodshed would probably have been avoided.

The same thing is likely to happen again whenever, in order to quell a local disturbance you bring regiments from a distant part of the country, be they a Mounted Police force, a regiment of artillery or a battalion of infantry. The feelings of these soldiers are often inflamed before they leave their quarters, and sometimes as they are reported to have said in Hamilton on one occasion, they say: "we will fix bayonets and we will go down to these people." In such cases as that you do not quell the disturbance; you only add

fuel to the flames. Therefore, I believe it is a wise thing to bring even the Mounted Police under the Minister of Defence.

In the second place I believe the Mounted Police should be limited to the smallest possible number, so as to avoid expense, and its operations should be limited to the territories that are not under provincial authority. In that way we should avoid expense and also the duplication of authority so far as the police organization is concerned.

May I add another consideration? Why should I of the province of Quebec, or you of the province of Ontario, be obliged to contribute to policing the territory of a distant province? We in Quebec look after the organization of our provincial police, and we pay for it. Why should not other provinces do the same, leaving it to the federal government to provide that small force only which is necessary to look after the unorganized territories which are in its jurisdiction?

May I add a word or two on another question which has been touched on by a few hon. members? Speaking on the principle of the proposed legislation, and particularly in respect of the reduction of the staff of the militia, my hon. friend from Hamilton (Mr. Mewburn), whom I am sorry not to see in his seat at the present time, has shed a few tears regarding the few generals who have to retire. As to the general character of these officers, the services they have rendered the country, and their high attainments, I do not believe there is any difference of opinion among the members of this House, or among all classes of our population. But I do not think that we should be altogether as sensitive as my hon. friend would like us to be.

There are other people who displayed merit during the war. There are many men who served in the Canadian Expeditionary Force who cannot display their breasts bedecked with medals; they received no titles; they can only show their merits and their claims to consideration by exhibiting an amputated arm or an amputated leg. And yet these brave men when the forces were called back to this country were demobilized and granted a very small pension indeed. Sometimes, forsooth, they were left in a dire condition and face to face with great hardship.

But if these examples are not altogether appropriate when we consider our great

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o77

generals at home-and I do not sneer at the officers in question-if these examples are not altogether appropriate to their ease, let me cite to them an example that history gives us. There was once a great general in Rome named Cincinnatus. He came out of the ranks of the citizens. He served his country, and when he left the army he returned to the plough. A great number of our generals came from the ranks of the citizens of Canada to'serve in a citizen army. They have served their country well; their country is much indebted to them; now that the war is over let them return to the plough; let them return to their daily occupation, let them serve in the large army of the citizens of Canada who are toiling to establish peace and prosperity in this Dominion. If they do this they will not only deserve the commendations of the nation for the services they have rendered under arms, but they will earn the praise of future generations for having done their duty whether under arms or in civilian attire. Mr. Chairman, I believe the proposed legislation deserves the approval of the committee and that the resolution should pass as drafted.

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CON

William Alves Boys (Whip of the Conservative Party (1867-1942))

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BOYS:

Before the resolution is

adopted I would like to draw the attention of the minister to the provisions of section 8. Let me read them:

That provision be made to vest the powers, duties and functions vested in the Ministers and Deputy Ministers under the various Acts relating to the JN'aval 'Service, the Militia, Militia Pensions, the Royal Military College, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and the Dominion Police, in the Minister of National Defence, and the Deputy Minister of National Defence respectively- .

and so on. I take it for granted it is the intention of the minister to include the Canadian Air Force because I observe by section 2 the following language:

That the Minister shall be charged with all matters relating to Defence, including the Militia the Military, Naval, Air and Police

Services of Canada.

It would appear to me under the wording of the section as it stands now, that the powers, duties and functions which are vested in the minister under the provisions of the Air Board Act, 9 and 10 George V, Chapter 11, are entirely omitted. I am personally very much interested in the Air Force and I certainly do not wish to see it omitted. I do not believe it is the intention of the minister to omit the Air Force, but I would like to suggest that the language of section 8 be amended so as to include the provisions of the Air

Board Act. It may be there is other legislation dealing with the Air Board, or the Canadian Air Force, with which I am not familiar; but I think that all such provisions should be included in section 8 so that thereby the powers, duties and functions vested in the minister and deputy minister pursuant to the same may also pass to the Minister of National Defence, which evidently is the intention of the section.

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LIB

George Perry Graham (Minister of Militia and Defence; Minister of the Naval Service)

Liberal

Mr. GRAHAM:

The Air Force is a little different in its organization; there is no deputy minister in the Air Force.

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CON

William Alves Boys (Whip of the Conservative Party (1867-1942))

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BOYS:

No, but there is the act.

Mr. GJtAHAM: And the Minister of Militia is only chairman of the Air Board.

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CON

William Alves Boys (Whip of the Conservative Party (1867-1942))

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BOYS:

The language of section 2, if I remember correctly, provides that the minister himself shall be chairman. There is also a vice-chairman provided for, and then there is the provision of the act which gives certain powers which are now being exercised by the Air Board. I presume it is the intention of the minister that all these powers should now be vested, under the proposed bill, in the Minister of National Defence. If it is the intention to include the various statutes relating to the Minister of Militia and Defence it seems to me to be equally necessary to include the statute relating to the Air Board.

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LIB

Charles Murphy (Postmaster General)

Liberal

Mr. MURPHY:

May I ask my hon.

friend a question? I have not at hand the statute to which he refers but in that act are there powers and duties vested in the minister and deputy minister?

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CON

William Alves Boys (Whip of the Conservative Party (1867-1942))

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BOYS:

I would say so, certainly, although I have not read it all.

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LIB

George Perry Graham (Minister of Militia and Defence; Minister of the Naval Service)

Liberal

Mr. GRAHAM:

I do not think so.

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CON

William Alves Boys (Whip of the Conservative Party (1867-1942))

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BOYS:

It is provided that the Governor in Council shall appoint a member of the Air Board, who is one of the Ministers of the Crown, to be chairman of the board, and shall appoint one of the other members of the Air Force to be vice- chairman. One member of the Air Board is to be appointed as representative of the Department of Militia and Defence, and one as a representative of the Department of Naval Service. The members of the Air Board are to be appointed for a term of three years and are to be eligible for reappointment. They are to be paid such salaries as the Governor-in-Council may determine. Then follows section 3 dealing with the duties of the Air Board, and section 4 dealing with their powers. It is

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under that statute, as far as I know, that the Air Board gets all its powers.

It is manifest to me, from the remarks of the minister, and from the provisions of section 2 of the resolution, that it is his intention to continue the work of the Air Board, perhaps in a lesser degree, because I notice the estimates are cut to some extent, but I think the minister should amend that section to include the Air Board Act to which I have just referred, and perhaps some other legislation.

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LIB

Charles Murphy (Postmaster General)

Liberal

Mr. MURPHY:

My hon. friend will see that there are no such powers vested in the minister or deputy minister under the act from which he has just quoted as there are in the acts cited in this resolution and in the bill that will be founded upon it.

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April 4, 1922