March 31, 1922

LIB

Lomer Gouin (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Liberal

Sir LOMER GOUIN:

One clause is repealed and replaced by another. It is simply providing for four judges instead of three.

Topic:   JUDGES ACT AMENDMENT
Subtopic:   ADDITIONAL JUDGE, SASKATCHEWAN COURT OP APPEAL
Permalink
PRO

Thomas Alexander Crerar

Progressive

Mr. CRERAR:

That is the only change?

Topic:   JUDGES ACT AMENDMENT
Subtopic:   ADDITIONAL JUDGE, SASKATCHEWAN COURT OP APPEAL
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LIB

Lomer Gouin (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Liberal

Sir LOMER GOUIN:

Yes.

Topic:   JUDGES ACT AMENDMENT
Subtopic:   ADDITIONAL JUDGE, SASKATCHEWAN COURT OP APPEAL
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CON

Thomas Langton Church

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. CHURCH:

I have no desire to

oppose this (bill, but I wish to point out that there has been a great deal of dissatisfaction throughout the country with regard to judges of the High Court leaving their judicial duties for the purpose of serving on provincial commissions. The matter has been the subject of discussion by the Bar Associations of some of the provinces. The judiciary of Canada have always been on a high plane and have commanded the respect of everybody, and it would be well if the minister would lay down a policy under which judges of the High Court might not serve on these political commissions. In fact, an act was passed a few years ago prohibiting them

from doing so. It is not in the interests of the Bench; it is not in the interests of the judicial business of the province. The practice to which I refer has prevailed not only in Ontario but in various parts of the West and the East. In Ontario three judges of the High Court have been leaving their judicial duties during several months in the year to serve on these commissions. Before we pass this bill the minister should give us an assurance that without the addition proposed the number of judges in Saskatchewan would be insufficient. If three judges in Ontario can leave their judicial duties for four or five months in the year, it means that there are too many High Court judges in that province, and the same thing may apply to Saskatchewan and other parts of the country. This practice must stop if the confidence of the people in the judiciary is to be maintained. I trust that the minister will see that the act passed a few years ago with regard to the matter is enforced.

Topic:   JUDGES ACT AMENDMENT
Subtopic:   ADDITIONAL JUDGE, SASKATCHEWAN COURT OP APPEAL
Permalink
LIB

Lomer Gouin (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Liberal

Sir LOMER GOUIN:

The law which my hon. friend refers to has been enforced, and it is our intention to have it enforced in the future.

Topic:   JUDGES ACT AMENDMENT
Subtopic:   ADDITIONAL JUDGE, SASKATCHEWAN COURT OP APPEAL
Permalink
CON

John Babington Macaulay Baxter

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BAXTER:

When this matter was before the Committee the other day I expressed the view that there was some disparity between the members of the judiciary in Saskatchewan and those in the other western provinces. On looking up the number of judges provided for in the Estimates I find that I was quite right. In Manitoba, which is very populous and wealthy and must have more legal business than some of the other provinces, there are eleven judges in all,-the Chief Justice of the Court of Appeal and four judges; the Chief Justice of the Court of King's Bench and five judges. In British Columbia there is a Chief Justice of the Court of Appeal and four judges; a Chief Justice of the Supreme Court and five judges, a total of eleven. In Alberta there is a Chief Justice and four justices of the peace; a Chief Justice of the Trial Division and five justices, a total of eleven. At present in Saskatchewan there is a Chief Justice of the Court of Appeal and three judges; a Chief Justice of the Court of King's Bench and six judges, a total of eleven. Now, the western provinces have each the same number of judges, though they are not distributed in the same way as between the Court of Appeal and the Trial Division. It is now sought to add another judge in Saskatchewan; and I would like to ask the

National Defence

54 7

Government and the House how long it will be before Saskatchewan will be taken as the measure and a judge added to each of the other western provinces. It seems to me that it is making in that direction. I suggested the other day that it was only necessary for Saskatchewan, if the division was not satisfactory, to increase the number of its Appellate Division, and reduce that of the Trial Division, by one. They would thus be able to adjust the present judiciary to the actual work of the province. I had investigated the reports very cursorily, but I examined them with a little more attention later, and I found that I had greatly overestimated the number of cases coming before the Court of Appeal in Saskatchewan. In fact, ninety was the total in one volume of the reports, covering a year,-much less than I had thought. The Trial Division reports are put in with those of the Appeal Division and it makes it look like quite a large volume. I assume, however, that the excuse for this legislation is to be found in the newspaper reports, which indicate that the appointment of a gentleman as judge in that province has already been decided upon. In view of the political outlook in Saskatchewan, I suppose it is extremely ' necessary to provide for some one; therefore the country must pay an additional $9,000 each year for something that is not needed, except to support an appointee of the Government who might not be as politically fortunate, as his friends in this House have been.

Topic:   JUDGES ACT AMENDMENT
Subtopic:   ADDITIONAL JUDGE, SASKATCHEWAN COURT OP APPEAL
Permalink
LIB

Lomer Gouin (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Liberal

Sir LOMER GOUIN:

We are informed by the legislature of Saskatchewan that the appointment is necessary. I have not heard any such rumour as my hon. friend has mentioned.

Topic:   JUDGES ACT AMENDMENT
Subtopic:   ADDITIONAL JUDGE, SASKATCHEWAN COURT OP APPEAL
Permalink
CON

John Babington Macaulay Baxter

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BAXTER:

The hon. gentleman does not read the papers.

Topic:   JUDGES ACT AMENDMENT
Subtopic:   ADDITIONAL JUDGE, SASKATCHEWAN COURT OP APPEAL
Permalink
LIB

Lomer Gouin (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Liberal

Sir LOMER GOUIN:

Well, I do not read all of them. The hon. member must himself admit that a tribunal consisting of four judges is not sufficient to carry on the work in that province. No additional judges in the Trial Division are needed. As I stated the other day when the resolution was before the Committee, we are merely supplementing the legislation of Saskatchewan. We have been advised by hon. members of this House that the cases before the Court of Appeal in that province are so numerous that a large number are in arrears. I think this is a sufficient answer to my hon. friend's representations.

Topic:   JUDGES ACT AMENDMENT
Subtopic:   ADDITIONAL JUDGE, SASKATCHEWAN COURT OP APPEAL
Permalink

Section agreed to. Bill reported, read the third time and passed.


DEPARTMENT OF NATIONAL DEFENCE BILL


Hon. GEORGE P. GRAHAM (Minister of Militia and Defence) moved the second reading of Bill No. 15, respecting the Department of National Defence.


CON

Hugh Guthrie

Conservative (1867-1942)

Hon. HUGH GUTHRIE (South Wellington) :

I rise to a point of order in regard to this bill. I sumbit that this is a bill which seeks to impose a public charge -it certainly does by clause 5-and that it should therefore come before the House in the usual way by resolution after the assent of His Excellency has been obtained. I think it is Rule 77 that covers the case. The practice we have always followed should be followed now, I submit.

Topic:   DEPARTMENT OF NATIONAL DEFENCE BILL
Permalink
LIB

William Lyon Mackenzie King (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council; Secretary of State for External Affairs)

Liberal

Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister):

I think my hon. friend will find that the purpose of this bill is to reduce the public charge. So far from the bill proposing any extra charge on the country, its effect will be to reduce very considerably the present charge.

Topic:   DEPARTMENT OF NATIONAL DEFENCE BILL
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CON

Hugh Guthrie

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. GUTHRIE:

My point is this: This bill proposes a charge upon the people of this country. It is in regard to pensions, and gives the Governor in Council power to increase the pensions now allowed by law by adding from one to three years in the computation of the time, thereby largely increasing the amount the country will have to pay. That charge is being imposed for the first time, and I therefore submit that the bill comes within Rule 77 and should be preceded by a resolution.

Hon. GEORGE P. GRAHAM (Minister of Militia): As a matter of fact, I imagine, this bill will not impose any additional financial burdens on the country, but will rather lessen those burdens, although they may be carried under another name. This bill was submitted to the Parliamentary Counsel and declared not to be a money bill. He was strong on that point, before I introduced the bill in this way. However, if the hon. gentleman wishes to delay the bill, I am willing to bring down a resolution, but, of course, it will delay the beginning of the reorganization that much longer.

Topic:   DEPARTMENT OF NATIONAL DEFENCE BILL
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LIB

Charles Marcil

Liberal

The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr. Marcil, Bonaventure) :

Does the hon. member (Mr. Guthrie) press his objection?

Supply-Labour

Topic:   DEPARTMENT OF NATIONAL DEFENCE BILL
Permalink
CON

Hugh Guthrie

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. GUTHRIE:

I am not strongly insisting, but I do think that the rule should be followed, or a precedent may be set up that will be invoked later.

Topic:   DEPARTMENT OF NATIONAL DEFENCE BILL
Permalink
LIB

Charles Marcil

Liberal

The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr. Marcil, Bonaventure):

Rule 77 clearly provides that money bills must be preceded by a resolution.

Topic:   DEPARTMENT OF NATIONAL DEFENCE BILL
Permalink
LIB

George Perry Graham (Minister of Militia and Defence; Minister of the Naval Service)

Liberal

Mr. GRAHAM:

My hon. friend will appreciate that I have postponed this bill for a good many days at his request, and now he is the first to object to our going on with it. I maintain that this is not a money bill, but in order that there may be no question I will withdraw my motion for the second reading, and proceed by way of resolution.

Motion withdrawn.

On the motion of Mr. Graham, the Order was discharged.

The House again in Committee of Supply, Mr. Gordon in the Chair.

Civil Government-Department of Labour-* Salaries, $258,755 ; contingencies, $45,500.

Topic:   DEPARTMENT OF NATIONAL DEFENCE BILL
Permalink
CON

Henry Lumley Drayton

Conservative (1867-1942)

Sir HENRY DRAYTON:

At a previous sitting I asked the minister for information as to the amount of money expended last year on account of the forty-two temporary employees. Perhaps he could now give that information.

Topic:   DEPARTMENT OF NATIONAL DEFENCE BILL
Permalink

March 31, 1922