May 30, 1921

UNI L

John Flaws Reid

Unionist (Liberal)

Hon. Mr. REID:

The arbitrators will decide whether they are worth nothing or not. If the arbitrators in regard to the

Grand Trunk decide that these are worth nothing, they will not ask the Government to pay anything; but if they decide that the Government shall pay a certain amount annually, or a certain amount for the equity the Government have, the liabilities that are against the road up to that time will be good.

Topic:   SUPPLY-BERRY AND CURRANT BOXES
Subtopic:   REVISED EDITION. COMMONS
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L LIB

Lucien Cannon

Laurier Liberal

Mr. CANNON:

Why should the Government not take this attitude which, I should think, is far more reasonable? Why cannot the Government deduct from whatever award is given by the arbitrators the amount of this loan? Then we would have a chance of getting our money back; otherwise we have not. We are lending now $89,000,000 to this railway and we have absolutely no security. The minister stated a minute ago that our mortgage is the very last one. These companies were taken over because they could not pay their creditors, and if they could not pay theif creditors before this loan was made, how can we get paid ourselves? Why should the Government not make with the company an arrangement that there shall be deducted from whatever the arbitrators award the company the amount of the loan? If the arbitrators decide that we owe the company for the whole of the prope-t.*, $100,000,000, we will pay them only $11,000,000, because we are lending them $89,000,000. Has the minister any intention of putting up that proposition to the company?

Topic:   SUPPLY-BERRY AND CURRANT BOXES
Subtopic:   REVISED EDITION. COMMONS
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UNI L

John Flaws Reid

Unionist (Liberal)

Hon. Mr. REID:

The arbitrators will decide the award taking into consideration the $89,000,000 that must be advanced to the Grand Trunk Railway system.

Topic:   SUPPLY-BERRY AND CURRANT BOXES
Subtopic:   REVISED EDITION. COMMONS
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L LIB

Lucien Cannon

Laurier Liberal

Mr. CANNON:

Does the minister declare under his authority that when the award takes place, these amounts which are being voted now will be taken into consideration and deducted from the amount? Does the minister declare that in his official capacity and under his authority as a minister of the Crown?

Topic:   SUPPLY-BERRY AND CURRANT BOXES
Subtopic:   REVISED EDITION. COMMONS
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UNI L

John Flaws Reid

Unionist (Liberal)

Hon. Mr. REID:

The award is given as of the date that we took the road over.

Topic:   SUPPLY-BERRY AND CURRANT BOXES
Subtopic:   REVISED EDITION. COMMONS
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L LIB

Lucien Cannon

Laurier Liberal

Mr. CANNON:

That is not want I am asking the minister. The minister, a moment ago, stated that when the arbitrator give their award, the amount which we are voting now will be taken into consideration. I am asking him to repeat that statement as a minister of the Crown, and co tell the committee and to the country that when the final award is given, these amounts which we are voting now will be

considered and, therefore, deducted from whatever sum the Government will be called upon to pay to the shareholders of the Grand Trunk.

Topic:   SUPPLY-BERRY AND CURRANT BOXES
Subtopic:   REVISED EDITION. COMMONS
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UNI L

John Flaws Reid

Unionist (Liberal)

Hon. Mr. REID:

The arbitrators will decide the award with reference to the condition of the company on the day that we took it over. If any of the amounts are in this statement of $89,000,000, they will be considered. If not, then, of course, they are liabilities that have been incurred since and' they will not be taken into consideration.

Topic:   SUPPLY-BERRY AND CURRANT BOXES
Subtopic:   REVISED EDITION. COMMONS
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L LIB

Lucien Cannon

Laurier Liberal

Mr. CANNON:

When was the company taken over by the Government?

Topic:   SUPPLY-BERRY AND CURRANT BOXES
Subtopic:   REVISED EDITION. COMMONS
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UNI L

John Flaws Reid

Unionist (Liberal)

Hon. Mr. REID:

In February of this year.

Topic:   SUPPLY-BERRY AND CURRANT BOXES
Subtopic:   REVISED EDITION. COMMONS
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L LIB

Lucien Cannon

Laurier Liberal

Mr. CANNON:

Therefore, this money

being voted in May will not be considered.

Topic:   SUPPLY-BERRY AND CURRANT BOXES
Subtopic:   REVISED EDITION. COMMONS
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UNI L

John Flaws Reid

Unionist (Liberal)

Hon. Mr. REID:

I do not know that I can make the matter any plainer. I say that the arbitrators will decide the amount that we have to pay as of February, the date that we took the railway over. Any of the amounts that we must now assume of the $89,000,000 that were due on or prior to that time will be considered; any liabilities since will, of course, not be taken into account in the award.

Topic:   SUPPLY-BERRY AND CURRANT BOXES
Subtopic:   REVISED EDITION. COMMONS
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L LIB

Lucien Cannon

Laurier Liberal

Mr. CANNON:

The minister understands exactly what I mean, and it is very easy for him to give an answer. I may state right now that I shall have the answer no matter how long it takes to get it. The minister has his officials beside him; he has the Minister of Marine and Fisheries (Mr. Ballantyne) sitting at his helm, a very able minister. I am going to have an answer, and the minister owes that answer to the country. The minister a moment ago stated from his seat that this amount of $89,000,000 was to be considered by the arbitrators. He stated that most expressly, leaving no doubt in the minds of whoever heard the statement. Now, the minister is saying that the arbitrators will consider only the liabilities or assets of the company as they existed between the Government and the company itself on February 1 of this year. We are voting on May 30, $89,000,000. Will this $89,000,000 be considered by the arbitrators? Have we a ghost of a chance of getting our money back? That is what I want to know and that is what the people of Canada are entitled to know. The minister is in a position to give the information, and if he does

not want to tell the committee, that is probably for the reason that he would as well the committee did not know.

Topic:   SUPPLY-BERRY AND CURRANT BOXES
Subtopic:   REVISED EDITION. COMMONS
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UNI L

John Flaws Reid

Unionist (Liberal)

Hon. Mr. REID:

Anything I know, I am prepared to tell the committee, and the insinuation was a mean one for the hon. member to make. I am prepared to give any and every answer I can, no matter what the hon. member states. I want to repeat again: Any items in the Estimates that were due or owing when this Government took over the Grand Trunk, will be considered by the arbitrators in making their award. Any item of expenditure since that time, will, of course, not be considered by the arbitrators.

Topic:   SUPPLY-BERRY AND CURRANT BOXES
Subtopic:   REVISED EDITION. COMMONS
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L LIB

Lucien Cannon

Laurier Liberal

Mr. CANNON:

Will the minister state to the committee now, out of this sum of $89,000,000 what are the items which will be considered and what are those which will not be considered? What ones were owing on February 1, 1921? What do they amount to?

Topic:   SUPPLY-BERRY AND CURRANT BOXES
Subtopic:   REVISED EDITION. COMMONS
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UNI L

John Flaws Reid

Unionist (Liberal)

Hon. Mr. REID:

I will give the hon.

member the items that go to make up the $89,000,000.

Topic:   SUPPLY-BERRY AND CURRANT BOXES
Subtopic:   REVISED EDITION. COMMONS
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L LIB

Lucien Cannon

Laurier Liberal

Mr. CANNON:

That is not what I am

asking for. I do not want the minister to be under any wrong impression. I want the minister to state openly and frankly to the committee what amounts out of the $89,000,000 were expended prior to February 1, 1921, and, therefore, will be considered by the arbitrators when they make their award. I do not want the items comprising the $89,000,000.

Topic:   SUPPLY-BERRY AND CURRANT BOXES
Subtopic:   REVISED EDITION. COMMONS
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UNI L

John Flaws Reid

Unionist (Liberal)

Hon. Mr. REID:

The Government took

over the railway about February, 1920, a year ago last February. These are the items that the arbitrators would consider because they were prior to that time:

Current and overdue working

.liabilities, net $14,589,433 09Pay rolls

4,773,726 25Sinking fund

500,000 00Retirement of capital obligations

24,765,713 31Bank overdrafts

5,404,520 03Those are the items that my deputy has marked as being due prior to the time we took over the railway. .

Topic:   SUPPLY-BERRY AND CURRANT BOXES
Subtopic:   REVISED EDITION. COMMONS
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L LIB

Thomas Vien

Laurier Liberal

Mr. VIEN:

Were the items my hon.

friend has just read the only ones due at the time of the taking over of the railway?

Topic:   SUPPLY-BERRY AND CURRANT BOXES
Subtopic:   REVISED EDITION. COMMONS
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UNI L

John Flaws Reid

Unionist (Liberal)

Hon. Mr. REID:

Those are the only ones my deputy has marked as being due at that time by the Grand Trunk Railway. The other items would be since then.

Topic:   SUPPLY-BERRY AND CURRANT BOXES
Subtopic:   REVISED EDITION. COMMONS
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L LIB

Thomas Vien

Laurier Liberal

Mr. VIEN:

Then those items are the

only ones which the arbitrators will take into account when giving their award?

Topic:   SUPPLY-BERRY AND CURRANT BOXES
Subtopic:   REVISED EDITION. COMMONS
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May 30, 1921