June 29, 1920

L LIB

Roch Lanctôt

Laurier Liberal

Mr. LANCTOT:

As I intend to move an amendment to Bill 219 to increase the indemnities, I will resume my seat for the present.

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L LIB

Edmond Proulx

Laurier Liberal

Mr. EDMOND PROULX (Prescott):

I do not want to repeat the arguments, which I made yesterday-

Mr. JACIQUEiS BUREAU : Arguments !

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L LIB

Edmond Proulx

Laurier Liberal

Mr. PROULX:

-.against increasing the judges' salaries when the Government today finds, it such a difficult matter to make both ends meet. As we have been imposing taxes on almost all the necessaries of life, I am of the opinion that the judges might well wait until the financial condition of the country is considerably better. I therefore move, seconded by Mr. Lanctot:

That Bill 21S be not tout that it be read a months.

now read a second time, second time this day six

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UNION

John Best

Unionist

Mr. JOHN BEST (Dufferin):

Might I ask the hon. Minister of Justice (Mr. Doherty) if the judges whose salaries are increased another thousand dollars will be entitled to pensions corresponding with the increase? If so, I shall oppose the Bill. I am not against paying good salaries, but I am against pensions and big salaries.

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UNION

Charles Joseph Doherty (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Unionist

Mr. DOHERTY:

The provision that

judges are entitled to retire on full salary is entirely abolished; but those judges who to-day are under that law entitled to retire with full salary would he entitled to do so with the salary of to-day so long as they meet the conditions governing their retirement. That position as drafted does not apply to the County Court judges, but will be prepared to consider an amendment when we get into committee, which will be the proper place to deal with it.

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LIB

William Lyon Mackenzie King (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Liberal

Mr. MACKENZIE KING:

Would the

minister kindly repeat his answer for the benefit of this side of the House?

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UNION

Charles Joseph Doherty (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Unionist

Mr. DOHERTY:

I was explaining that in regard to all judges hereafter appointed the provisions which entitle them to retire

with full pay are repealed, and that as regards all judges presently upon the Bench, and who are therefore under the law which confers that right upon them, if they retire in the future under conditions which would under the existing law entitle them to full salary, they will receive only the full salary as it is to-day, not including the addition to be made by the present Bill.

Amendment (Mr. Proulx) negatived on division.

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Motion agreed to, Bill read the second time, and the House went into committee thereon, Mr. Boivin in the Chair. On section 5-Exchequer Court of Canada ;


UNION

John Best

Unionist

Mr. BEST:

I would like the minister to give us an assurance that these pensions will be regulated or wiped out. I want to express my honest conviction that this pension business is getting to be a farce in this country. Why should those who make large salaries get pensions while those who get small salaries, and who need the money, do not? I want it to be distinctly understood that I wish every civil servant, every employee of the Government, to be well paid, but T do want to see the people of this country take care of what they get. I want them to be in a position to realize that they are not going to get pensions for years to come and be a burden on the country. I am totally against pensions of this kind, especially for those who are getting good salaries. I would like the minister to say how he is going to deal with the matter.

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UNION

Charles Joseph Doherty (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Unionist

Mr. DOHERTY:

We might more appropriately deal with that question when we come to the clause which deals with pensions. I may say at once that this Bill does not abolish all pensions but it does abolish pensions at full pay, leaving in existence only the two-thirds pensions.

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Section agreed to. On section 10-additional $1,000 payable to judges of Circuit, County and District Courts when district, etc., has town or city, of over 40,000 population.


UNION

Charles Joseph Doherty (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Unionist

Mr. DOHERTY:

I move that the marginal note be amended by striking therefrom the following words: "when district, etc., has town or city of over 40,000 population.'

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Amendment agreed to.


UNI L

William Stevens Fielding

Unionist (Liberal)

Mr. FIELDING:

Does this increase the salaries of judges whose salaries were increased a year ago?

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UNION

Charles Joseph Doherty (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Unionist

Mr. DOHERTY:

Yes.

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UNI L

William Stevens Fielding

Unionist (Liberal)

Mr. FIELDING:

It is getting to be an annual affair. We have to increase these salaries every year, have we?

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UNION

Charles Joseph Doherty (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Unionist

Mr. DOHERTY:

No, we hope this will be the termination of it. We only want to supplement the good work that was not completed last year, but we consider it complete now.

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UNI L

Thomas Alexander Crerar

Unionist (Liberal)

Mr. CRERAR:

What length of service is required to entitle a judge to pension?

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UNION

Charles Joseph Doherty (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Unionist

Mr. DOHERTY:

The present provision is that a man who in the High Court has served fifteen years shall be entitled to a pension of two-thirds of his salary. A man who has served twentydive years and is seventy years of age may retire with full pay; so with the man who has served twenty years and is seventy-five years of age. These provisions for retirement .with full pay are dealt with in the last section of the Bill.

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UNION

Thomas Wilson Crothers

Unionist

Mr. CROTHERS:

Is there any provision here to make the retiring allowance depend upon the length of service?

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June 29, 1920