June 28, 1920


5. That the salaries of the judges of the King's Bench of the Superior Court of the province of Quebec shall be increased to the following amounts:- Per annum. "(a) The Chief Justice of the King's Bench $10,000 "(b) Eleven puisne judges of the Court of the King's Bench, each 9,000 "(c) The Chief Justices of the Superior Court 10,000 "(d) The puisne judge of the Superior Court who is appointed by the Governor in Council to perform the duties of Chief Justice in the District as constitued for the Court of King's Bench sitting in appeal within which the Chief Justice does not reside, Montreal or Quebec, as the case may be 10,000 (e) Thirty-five puisne judges of the Superior Court, each. 9,000 "Provided, however, that a judge of a Superior Court shall not be entitled to receive any addition to his present salary unless he actually resides at or in the immediate vicinity of Montreal, Quebec, Sherbrooke or Three Rivers, as the case may be, as required by article 3076 of the Revised Statutes of 1909, of the province of Quebec, as enacted by section 41 [DOT] of chapter 79 of the statutes of 1920, of the said province; and provided further that this provision shall come into operation upon and after a day to be named by proclamation of the Governor in Council. 6. That the salaries of the judges of the Supreme Court of Nova Scotia shall be increased to the following amounts- . Per annum. "(a) The Chief Justice of the Court $10,000 "(b) The Judge in Equity .. .. 9,000 "(c) Five puisne judges of the Court, each 9,000 7.. That the salaries of the judges of the Supreme Court of New Brunswick shall be increased to the following amounts:- Per annum. "(a) The Chief Justice of New Brunswick $10,000 "(b) Two puisne judges of the Court of Appeal, each.. .. 9,000 "(c) The Chief Justice of the King's Bench Division.. .. 10,000 "(d) Three puisne judges of the King's Bench Division, each 9,000 8. That the salaries of the judges of the Court of Appeal and of the Court of King's Bench of Manitoba shall be increased to the following amounts:- Per annum. "(a) The Chief Justice of the Court of Appeal $10,000 "(b) Four puisne judges of the said Court, each 9,000 "(c) The Chief Jutice of the Court of King's Bench 10,000 "(d) Five puisne judges of the said Court, each 9,000 9. That the salaries of the judges of the Court of Appeal and of the Supreme Court of British Columbia shall be increased to the following amounts:- Per annum. "(a) The Chief Justice of the Court of Appeal $10,000 '(b) Four Justices of Appeal, each. 9,000 "(c) The Chief Justice of the Supreme Court 10,000 "(d) Five puisne judges of the Supreme Court, each.. .. 9,000 10. That the salaries of the judges of the Supreme Court of Prince Edward Island shall be increased to the following amount:- Per annum. "(a) The Chief Justice of the Court $10,000 "(b) One assistant judge, being also Master of the Rolls in Chancery 9,000 "(c) One assistant judge, being also Vice-Chancellor.. . . 9,000 11. That the salaries of the judges of the Court of Appeal and of His Majesty's Court of King's Bench of Saskatchewan shall be increased to the following amounts:- Per annum. "(a) The Chief Justice of Saskatchewan if he is also the Chief Justice of the Court of Appeal, and, if not, the Chief Justice of the Court of Appeal $10,000 "(b) Three puisne judges of the Court of Appeal, each . . 9,000 "(c) The Chief Justice of the Court of King's Bench. . . . 10,000 "(d) Five puisne judges of the Court of King's Bench, each 9,000 12. That the salaries of the judges of the Supreme Court of Alberta shall be increased to Jthe following amounts:- Per annum. "(a) The Chief Justice of the Court $10,000 "(b) Eight puisne judges of the Court, each 9,000 13. That on the coming into force of the Judicature Act passed by the Legislature of Alberta in 1919, and upon and after a day to be named by proclamation of the Governor in Council, the salaries of the judges of the Supreme Court of Alberta shall be as follows :- Per annum. "(a) The Chief Justice of Alberta $10,000 "(b) Four Justices of Appeal, each 9,000 "(c) The Chief Justice of the Trial Division.. .. .. 10,000 "(d) Five Justices of the Supreme Court of Alberta, each . . 9,000 14. That the salary of the judge of the territorial Court of the Yukon Territory shall be increased to $7,000 per annum. 15. That the Governor in Council may for each fiscal year pay for expenses of travelling and living while in attendance at a sitting of the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, a sum not exceeding $3,000 to a member of His Majesty's Privy Council who is eligible to be a member of the said Judicial Committee in respect of holding of having beld judicial office in Canada and who attends a sitting of the said Judicial Committee as a member thereof. 16. That every judge of any circuit, county or district court in whose county or district thert is a city or town with a population of forty thousand people or over shall -be paid one thousand dollars per annum in addition to his present salary. 17. That the provision of subsection 3 of section 27 of the said Act as to taxes and deductions shall not apply to any judge whose salary is increased by the present Act, or whose salary was increased by chapter 59 of the Statutes of 1919, and who accepts or has accepted such increase, and that the salaries and retiring allowances of judges appointed after the seventh day of July, 1919, and of all judges accepting any increase of salary under the proposed Act or accepting or having accepted any increase of salary under chapter 59 of the Statutes of 1919, shall be taxable and subject to the taxes imposed by The Income War Tax Act, 1917, and the amendments thereto. 18. That no judge of the Supreme Court of Canada, the Exchequer Court of Canada, or of any Provincial Superior Court shall receive any remuneration in addition to his judicial salary for acting as Administrator or Deputy Governor General, or for any duty or service, whether judicial or executive, which he may hereafter be required to perform for or on behalf of the Government of Canada or the Government of any province thereof. 19. That every judge of the Supreme Court of Canada, the Exchequer Court of Canada, or of any Provincial Superior Court who may be nominated for the purpose by the Governor in Council or the Lieutenant Governor in Council shall execute without additional remuneration any commission or enquiry for which he may be appointed as Commissioner under any authority in that behalf exercisable by the Governor in Council or the Lieutenant Governor in Council including the discharge of the duty of arbitrator in any case in which he may be named to act by the competent authority. Provided, however, that any such judge while acting as Commissioner or arbitrator at the nomination of the Governor in Council shall be entitled to his moving or transportation expenses and living allowance at the rate provided by section 18 of the said Act, and such judge when employed under the authority of the Lieutenant Governor in Council may be paid by the Lieutenant Governor in Council his moving or transportation expenses and a living allowance not exceeding the amount which he would be entitled to under the said section 18. He said: I desire to make a modification in section 16 and I therefore beg to move: That the words "in whose county or district there is a city or town with a population of 40,000 people or over," be stricken out. Motion agreed to, and the House went into committee on the resolution as amended, Mr. Boivin in the Chair.


UNI L

Thomas Alexander Crerar

Unionist (Liberal)

Mr. CRERAR:

What are the present

salaries of the county judges?

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UNION

Charles Joseph Doherty (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Unionist

Mr. DOHERTY:

The present salary of

the County Court judges is $4,000. We are making it $5,000.

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UNI L

Thomas Alexander Crerar

Unionist (Liberal)

Mr. CRERAR:

Does that apply all over the provinces?

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UNION

Charles Joseph Doherty (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Unionist

Mr. DOHERTY:

All over the provinces.

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L LIB

Roch Lanctôt

Laurier Liberal

Mr. LANCTOT:

Before this resolution

passes I desire to offer a few observations with respect to it. I do not complain so much about raising the salaries of judges, but I would like to see provision made in the Bill which is to be founded upon this resolution for contributions by the judges themselves towards the pensions which they are to receive. I noticed in the press the recent death of an old judge in the province of Quebec. He was appointed: to the Bench in 1873, but in 1888 was retired on a pension, which he had been in enjoyment of for the last thirty-two years and towards which he had not contributed even one cent, as is required in the case of pensions to other classes of the community. We do not see such pensions granted elsewhere in Canada after only fifteen years of service. In other cases when pensions are granted, the beneficiaries must themselves contribute towards the pension fund. Are we to consider that the lawyers of the country are to be especially favoured in that regard? The particular judge to whom I refer was appointed at a salary of $4,000 per annum and therefore received during the course of his fifteen years' .service the sum of $60,000, in round figures. He was a pensioner of the country for thirty-two years and during that period drew $85,354, so that from the time he was elevated to the Bench to the period of his death he received in all $145,354. It is not only the salary which a judge receives when he is discharging his duties, but the pension which he draws upon retirement, that we must take into consideration. It is not necessary for a judge to have reached old age to be retired; it is very common for persons in this House and out of it to be looking for judicial positions, and consequently the retirement of a judge sometimes takes place before considerations of age or health demand it. Frequently when a member of Parliament who is a lawyer fails to be re-elected to Parliament he is placed on the Bench. We then witness the spectacle of politicians going here and there through the country and saying to a judge, "You have served fifteen years, why not resign? We have another man waiting to take your job." That practice will be easier to follow in future than it has been in the past because of this legislation. I know judges who were appointed in the province of Quebec about the year 1905 at a salary of $5,000, and the passage of the legislation to be founded upon this resolution will make it possible for those judges to draw a pension of $6,000. It would be foolish for them to

remain on the Bench hereafter because they will get 'more 'by retiring than by staying. What will be the result of such legislation? For the purposes of illustration I will put a case to my hon. friend the Minister of Justice in this connection: Supposing a judge should follow the example of the Minister of Justice, and retire from the Bench, and offer himself as a candidate at a parliamentary election and be returned? Supposing that man becomes Minister of Justice? He will then receive a pension of $6,000, the parliamentary indemnity of $4,000 and the salary of a minister of the 'Crown, $10,000. That would be a very agreeable situation for any man to find himself in. As I say, I would not object at all to the pension if the judge, like the civil servants for example, contributed so much every year towards the pension fund. Personally I have made provision for my old age; I am paying insurance on my life and when I die, my family will have a few thousand dollars at their disposal. Others should do the same. I do not see why there should be this discrimination in favour of judges, and when the Bill which is to follow this resolution is introduced, I intend to move that the judges be treated in the same way as the rest of the community. While I am on my feet I would like to ask the Minister of Justice this question: Supposing a vacancy should occur six months from now in the representation in the Supreme Court of Canada from ithe province of Quebec, can an ex-judge who is receiving' a pension from the state be appointed to replace the gentleman who is retired?

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UNION

Charles Joseph Doherty (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Unionist

Mr. DOHERTY:

I think a person in that position might be appointed, but I do not think he would be entitled to draw a pension as a retired judge while he was actually a judge in office.

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L LIB

Roch Lanctôt

Laurier Liberal

Mr. LANCTOT:

If I understand the

minister such an appointment could be made but my hon. friend does not believe for a moment that the appointee would accept a pension. That being so, when the present Minister of Justice accepted that portfolio he ought not to have continued to have drawn his pension as a retired judge. That is the way in whch I look at the matter and that is how I shall always regard it. If justice is not done to the farmers and the working men of this country in this matter I intend to tour the province of Quebec and tell my fellow citizens what is going on here in Ottawa when both parties combine to enact such bad legislation as

this. At the proper time, after the Bill has been introduced, I propose to move certain amendments giving expression to my views.

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UNION

Thomas Wilson Crothers

Unionist

Mr. CROTHERS:

I would like to ask the Minister of Justice upon what ground it ie proposed to amend clause 16 under which it was proposed that an additional $1,000 per annum should be granted to the judge of'any circuit, county or district court in which there is a city or town with a population of forty thousand or over.

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UNION

Charles Joseph Doherty (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Unionist

Mr. DOHERTY:

The clause which appeared in the original resolution did make that distinction. But we have since found, by representations coming from numerous quarters, that the distinction sought to be made would not operate fairly, that the test of there being a city of forty thousand population in that county was not *a fair test of the importance of the 'business to be transacted or of the amount of judicial work required to be done. I may say that it has been pointed out to me, and it is beyond dispute, I understand, that in all of the western provinces, particularly in British Columbia in very many counties there do not happen to be cities, but while there may be in those counties a smaller number of cases to be decided, it imposes upon the judges who hold office in them the obligation of covering a very extensive territory, frequently under conditions of travel which are not of the most agreeable kind, and that those judges compensate at least for the difference in quantity of work by the added arduousness of the conditions under which it has to be performed. Coming to the other provinces, even in the province of Ontario it has been brought to my attention that in quite a few cases the judges in counties or districts where there does not happen to be a city of 40,000 * inhabitants have as large a burden, in some instances, as in districts where there is such a city. Moreover, it has been found that in some of these counties containing a city of 40,000 inhabitants the judges in adjoining counties necessarily have to share the burden, and it would manifestly be unfair under those circumstances that there should be a discrimination in the salary. Therefore, taking it all round, it seemed to be impossible to draw a line that would do perfect justice.

Apart from that I think if hon. members will reflect for a moment they will feel that taking the County Court judges as a whole this is perhaps ,a fair consideration. Their salaries are to-day but $4,000. Of course, their work may be more or less onerous,

but in any case it is work to which the judges have to devote their whole time, and leaving the salaries at that figure might perhaps invite comparisons with other allowances from which it would appear that there was not perhaps altogether quite a fair 'balancing of the different conditions. In any event, I may say that the principal reason is that we find ourselves face to face with the fact that such differences operate unjustly, and it was impossible to find a line of demarcation that would operate equitably. Therefore it appeared to us in view of the very large number of County Court judges, with regard to whom I do not think it can be suggested that $5,000 is too large a salary, that even if it should happen that taking in the whole there might be places where the work would not be adequate to justify that salary, still on the whole balance we would be doing the right thing by granting the increase.

Then there is another feature to be considered; it is undesirable to discriminate between judges. A judge is a judge-it is the position. It may happen that a judge is appointed to a district where there is a little less work than in other districts, but that is not because he selected that district. Whether the work be heavy or light, his whole time is given to it, and if he is a man fit and capable to be a judge in any court and to do honour to his office, I think everybody will agree that he would be able to earn at least $5,000, if not more.

It has been suggested that in the province of Ontario, with the large number of County Court judges, there were some with not adequate work as compared with the judges in the other provinces. In that connection I w'ould point out, that under recent legislation, we are steadily proceeding to decrease the number, so that the judges who at present number seventy in the County Court will ultimately be reduced to fifty. Provision is made for not filling vacancies as they occur, and a large number of counties which had two judges have been reduced to one judge. That process of reduction is going on with fair Tapidity.

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UNION

William Findlay Maclean

Unionist

Mr. MACLEAN (South York):

Could not that process of gradual reduction be accelerated by legislation on the part of the Provincial Government?

Mr. DOHERTY; It is their legislation which has produced that result.

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UNION

William Findlay Maclean

Unionist

Mr. MACLEAN (South York):

It is going very slowly. It needs an accelerator.

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UNION

Charles Joseph Doherty (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Unionist

Mr. DOHERTY:

I would remind my

hon. friend that every judge in office is a judge for the rest of his life, and the only way in which the Ontario legislature could speed up the operation of its statute would be to terminate the judges' lives at an earlier date than nature did.

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UNION

Thomas Wilson Crothers

Unionist

Mr. CROTHERS:

The reason given by

the minister that under the clause as it now stands some County Court judges would receive a larger salary than others does not seem to have regard to the fact that some County Court judges in Ontario receive more than the ordinary salary.

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UNION

Charles Joseph Doherty (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Unionist

Mr. DOHERTY:

Not from the Dominion.

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UNION

Thomas Wilson Crothers

Unionist

Mr. CROTHERS:

One or two points

have been omitted which I think should be mentioned. We have in Ontario something over seventy of these County Court judges.

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UNION

Charles Joseph Doherty (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Unionist

Mr. DOHERTY:

Just seventy now.

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UNION

Thomas Wilson Crothers

Unionist

Mr. CROTHERS:

In many of the counties there are two judges, a senior and a junior; and those of us who come from Ontario know that it is no exaggeration to say that in many of the counties there is not half enough work to keep one judge busy. We have junior judges in Ontario who do not pretend to do anything except for three or four days during each month. Last year their salary was increased by $1,000; they are with us again this year. Now those judges have other sources of income. There may be a few exceptions, but in the great majority of cases the Government of the province appoints the senior County Court judge also a judge of the Surrogate Court, for which he receives fees to the amount of about $1,000. I think the Government commuted those fees in some cases a year or two ago. If I remember rightly, the senior County Court judges Surrogate Court fees were fixed at $1,300, and the juniors' at $1,000. But let us put those fees at $1,000; then from other sources I estimate they get $500, that is, for their work in the selection of jurors, the revision of voters' lists, and hearing appeals under the Ditch and Watercourses Act; so that with their salary of $4,000 they are in receipt of about $5,500.

Another point that should be brought to the attention of the committee is that when those judges retire at the age of seventy-five years they receive their full salary during the rest of their lives, even if they have only served five years on the bench. I do not know whether the Minister of Justice

has succeeded or not, but I know that he has endeavoured not to appoint men to the County Court bench older than sixty years. I think, however, there have been many exceptions to that rule. Supposing a man is appointed at sixty, he is bound to retire at seventy-five years of age. At the miximum he serves fifteen years, and as the law now stands he would receive $4,000 a year during the balance of his life. But that retiring allowance applies whenever he retires regardless of his length of service.

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UNION

Charles Joseph Doherty (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Unionist

Mr. DOHEBTY:

There will be a clause in the Bill to correct that.

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UNION

Thomas Wilson Crothers

Unionist

Mr. CROTHERS:

I am speaking of the

law as it is now. My hon. friend the Minister of Justice says that he intends to change that condition of affairs. In the case of a Superior Court judge the pension depends upon the number of years he has served on the bench; if he has served for fifteen years he gets a percentage, if for twenty years a larger percentage, and if for twenty-five years a still larger percentage of his salary. But that, of course, does not apply at all to the County Court judges. A few weeks ago I received a letter from a County Court judge saying, " I have served for so many years; I suppose I am not entitled to my full salary?" I had to write him in reply that he was entitled to his full salary, no matter how long he had been on the bench. .

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June 28, 1920