November 8, 1919

UNION

Alexander Kenneth Maclean (Minister Without Portfolio)

Unionist

Mr. A. K. MACLEAN:

It is the same way with the pilots on the Atlantic coast.

Topic:   PACIFIC COAST PILOTAGE.
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L LIB

Daniel Duncan McKenzie

Laurier Liberal

Mr. McKENZIE:

Any pilot on the Atlantic coast who lost his pilotage dues is provided by this Parliament with a fixed salary. Now we are taking away the pilotage dues on the Pacific coast and substituting nothing. We are stripping them of their incomes and giving them nothing to take their places. The hon. member (Mr. A. K. Maclean) shakes his head. If he says that he is not taking away their incomes and that he is substituting something, I will have nothing to say. We must have pilots. Some of the ships on the coast of British

Columbia going to the United States may not require pilots, but there are ships coming into these harbours that will require pilots, and unless there is some sufficient provision made to encourage pilots to remain at that business there will be no pilots at all. I would like to be satisfied in the general interest of the country and of its shipping that sufficient provision is being made for pilots on the Pacific coast to keep them at this work. If their dues are being removed or taken away it seems that something else will have to be substituted to take their place, and I have not been satisfied on that point.

Topic:   PACIFIC COAST PILOTAGE.
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UNION

Alexander Kenneth Maclean (Minister Without Portfolio)

Unionist

Mr. A. K. MACLEAN:

The average pilot in the various pilotage districts of British Columbia receives |300 per month. I think they earn more than do pilots in other districts in Canada unless it be at Quebec and in the St. Lawrence district. In 1918, in the Victoria-Esquimalt pilotage district five pilots earned 315,131; in the Nanaimo district seven pilots earned $22,275, and in the Vancouver district nine pilots earned $27,360. The earnings in the several pilotage districts were more than sufficient to pay these pilots the remuneration which I have stated.

Topic:   PACIFIC COAST PILOTAGE.
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L LIB
UNION

Alexander Kenneth Maclean (Minister Without Portfolio)

Unionist

Mr. A. K. MACLEAN:

They were pilotage dues and did not include dues paid by the class of shipping which we are trying to relieve by this present Bill. Perhaps it is unfortunate but we must admit that this tax was evaded under some regulation, or pretended regulation, by virtue of which there was a remission of the pilotage dues paid by the class of shipping sought to be relieved by this Bill. In no other place in Canada do we seek to tax for pilotage dues shipping engaged in running between Canadian and American ports except in British Columbia. Ships running from Sydney to New York pay no pilotage dues. The same is true of ships running between Halifax or St. John and New York, between Quebec and New York and between Sydney and Newfoundland. If Canadian ships, they pay no pilotage dues. We simply want to apply that same rule to British Columbia. Supposing it did affect the pilots' earnings in British Columbia, I do not admit that that is a serious consideration. The important consideration is the interest of shipping. Some other means will be provided for remunerating the pilots if the pilotage dues do not provide a fund. I do not see why we need to concern ourselves so much

about the interests of the pilots, as they must be suitably remunerated in one way if not in another. There is a more important consideration, namely: What are the interests of the province of British Columbia and of shipping? We are instructed that it is very much in the interest of the mercantile business of this province that this legislation become effective. I think it is also in the interest of the development of shipping.

Topic:   PACIFIC COAST PILOTAGE.
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L LIB

Daniel Duncan McKenzie

Laurier Liberal

Mr. McKENZIE:

Whiat representations from the shipping interests has the minister received? Can he give any evidence or satisfactory proof to the House derived from recognized shipping interests that there are objections in British Columbia to paying the pilotage dues? I am not familiar with the developments in regard to pilotage which the minister appears to have found out so recently. I know that a small schooner leaving Sydney and going to Halifax has to pay pilotage dues. The minister may shake his head but I have been in negotiation, as the lawyer for a client, trying to get from the pilotage authorities of the port of Halifax, $9 paid in pilotage fees by the owner of a small schooner. I did not get the money back. They refused to give it back; they said it was the law and that the owner of this schooner bad to pay pilotage due's coming into Halifax harbour because he was in the same class as anybody else. My hon. friend seems to have discovered a new law by which a great percentage of the shipping on our coasts goes free. I think that if he will inquire he will find that boats carrying coal from Louisburg to the New England States pay pilotage coming into the harbour of Louisburg. I am not giving that as a certainty but I would like my hon. friend to inquire. If a recognized body of shipowners, or a shipping federation, on the Pacific coast represent to this Government that they should not pay pilotage dues it is a matter for serious and proper consideration. But we have not heard of any such request from them, and until we have such I think this very important class of men- the pilots-should have some consideration. My hon. friend seems to be willing to brush the pilot aside and give hi's attention altogether to the shipowner. They are both very necessary to the commerce of this country and they should both receive fair treatment.

Topic:   PACIFIC COAST PILOTAGE.
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UNION

Alexander Kenneth Maclean (Minister Without Portfolio)

Unionist

Mr. A. K. MACLEAN:

All the shipping interests in conference with a representative of the Department of Marine not very long

ago in British Columbia made a request for legislation of this character.

Section as amended agreed to, and Bill reported, read the third time and pasised.

Topic:   PACIFIC COAST PILOTAGE.
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FURTHER SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES.


Sir GEORGE E, FOSTER presented a communication from His Excellency the Governor General transmitting further Supplementary Estimates required for the public service for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1919, which were referred to Committee of 'Supply.


CANADA SHIPPING ACT AMENDMENT.


Hon. A. K. MACLEAN (for the Minister of Marine) moved the second reading of Bill No. 40, to amend the Canada Shipping Act.


L LIB

Ernest Lapointe

Laurier Liberal

Mr. ERNEST LAPOINTE:

This is, a very important Bill, and I do not think it is treating members fairly to ask them to consider it under the existing circumstances. The measure was1 only introduced by leave of the House and read a first time last night. I have not had the opportunity nor the time-

Topic:   CANADA SHIPPING ACT AMENDMENT.
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UNION

Alexander Kenneth Maclean (Minister Without Portfolio)

Unionist

Mr. A. K. MACLEAN:

No, no, this Bill was introduced two or three days ago.

Topic:   CANADA SHIPPING ACT AMENDMENT.
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L LIB

Ernest Lapointe

Laurier Liberal

Mr. ERNEST LAPOINTE:

No, yesterday, according to Hansard. The Bill itself bears the statement " first reading November 7th," and to-day is the 8th.

Topic:   CANADA SHIPPING ACT AMENDMENT.
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UNION

Alexander Kenneth Maclean (Minister Without Portfolio)

Unionist

Mr. A. K. MACLEAN:

No, several days ago.

Topic:   CANADA SHIPPING ACT AMENDMENT.
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L LIB

Ernest Lapointe

Laurier Liberal

Mr. ERNEST LAPOINTE:

Here is the Bill itself and that is what it says.

Topic:   CANADA SHIPPING ACT AMENDMENT.
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UNION

Alexander Kenneth Maclean (Minister Without Portfolio)

Unionist

Sir. A. K. MACLEAN:

II do not care what is in the Bill, it was introduced several davs ago.

Topic:   CANADA SHIPPING ACT AMENDMENT.
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UNION

Alexander Kenneth Maclean (Minister Without Portfolio)

Unionist

Mr. A. K. MACLEAN:

I do not caTe what Government does not dispute the accuracy of a date set forth in one of its own Bills. Corroboration of my statement is to be found in Hansard of yesterday, which contains the following:

Canada Shipping Act Amendment.

On the motion of Hon. Mr. Doherty, the House returned, to the order, Introduction of Bills.

Hon. A. K. Maclean (for the Minister of Marine and Fisheries) moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 40, to amend the Canada Shipping Act.

Here is the statement contained in yesterday's Hansard.

Topic:   CANADA SHIPPING ACT AMENDMENT.
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UNION

Alexander Kenneth Maclean (Minister Without Portfolio)

Unionist

Mr. A. K. MACLEAN:

Yes, but there was a resolution which preceded that.

Topic:   CANADA SHIPPING ACT AMENDMENT.
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L LIB

Ernest Lapointe

Laurier Liberal

Mr. ERNEST LAPOINTE:

I am not speaking about the resolution, but about the Bill.

Topic:   CANADA SHIPPING ACT AMENDMENT.
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November 8, 1919